LUMIN - Audiophile Network Music Player

[Cebolla]

It is even possible there is no bug with LUMIN and that it is working properly in that there is some packet on your network caused by a bug in other software which is ignored (incorrectly) by other application and only LUMIN tries to process it and so crashes. (For an example Mozilla often highlighted errors in HTML coding which IE would ignore).

I've seen reports of multiple Twonky media servers on the network, having similar effects on Pioneer streamers. I don't think it's coincidence and it's entirely possible that it's due to some vulnerability in the UPnP protocol being used in the network communications stack. So it may not be fixable within the streamer itself, if an issue between media servers is causing a network blow up.

 

For example a flood of data packets used by UPnP may cause denial of service type issues, such as those streamer lock ups. The data flood may only be detected, intercepted and thus prevented by the network management/controlling devices, such as the router.

[Cebolla]

Hold on there MetalNuts.

 

How about the more likely issue with the operating system being the cause of the problem rather than the media server software? To test this out, why don't you install MinimServer on the PC and try that out, before putting the blame on MinimServer.

 

Of course you still have a problem of having to use your PC anyway if your NAS's operating system can't handle Chinese characters properly and there's no fix!

 

John

[Cebolla]

With respect, I have isolated the problem by deduction and the only difference is the choice of the server. The fact is by keeping all other constant, the use of JRiver and Minimserver makes the difference.

 

Synology is one of the recommended NAS by Lumin and the instructions is to installed minimserver on the NAS, and by doing so, you have no need to power on a PC or MAC to play your music from the files stored in NAS. What's the point of installing minimserver on the PC where your music files are not stored and which will not be power on. To experiment, would you please help to install the server on your PC or MAC to see if the Chinese Character will show properly on my iPad.

 

Thank you for your suggestions but I am afraid that it does not help by shedding the blame to the NAS.

I didn't actually say that the NAS was actually at fault, only that it was a more likely possibilty that its operating system may have been causing the Chinese character problem. I just think you were too quick to blame Minimserver for the issue. I don't think you really isolated the problem (which would be hard enough in itself, given the amount of variables, some of which are bound to be unknown), since you didn't consider that JRiver running on a different machine may behave differently with Chinese characters to MinimServer running on the NAS, as has already been mentioned by Eloise.

 

The point about installing & running MinimServer on the same machine as JRiver was to try to keep that side of things constant and of course it's important that you do it yourself as that'll be another constant factor (ie, easy for you to use the same music files that cause the Chinese character problem, etc). If MinimServer on the same machine as JRiver is also having similar problems to MinimServer on the NAS, then you have a case for suspecting a problem with MinimServer.

 

Another (good) variable to consider is that MinimServer actually requires the Java Runtime to work, so the Chinese character issue may be due to the version of Java Runtime you have installed on the NAS.

 

 

 

Your explanation that JRiver works differently so it can display Chinese is accepted. However, I had, before I got the Lumin, play via the OPPO, I didn't notice the improper display of Chinese Characters (needs to check again tonight when I get back home). If that is the case, what is the reason behind this? Any suggestion?

If the Oppo doesn't have an issue with the Chinese characters, why shouldn't the reasonable explanation already mentioned above for JRiver being ok also not apply to the Oppo?

[Cebolla]

I would not assume OPPO works like JRiver until I am certain how it work and the explanation to JRiver shall not automatically apply. Further, can you explain why some and not all files with Chinese Character cannot display properly if it is the UTF-8 problem?

I didn't actually say that you should automatically assume the Oppo works like JRiver, only to consider the possibilty. Your questions: "If that is the case, what is the reason behind this? Any suggestion?", seemed to me that you hadn't even considered it possible.

 

No idea about the UTF8 issue (I didn't suggest it), nor whether that is what is causing the problem. I agree that since only some of the Chinese character files are not being displayed properly makes the UTF8 problem unlikely.

Have you isolated which of the music files with Chinese characters are being displayed vs those not being displayed? Have you checked, as Psme suggests to see if the relevant characters are in UTF8 & also, any obvious differences in the ID3 tags between ok files & not ok files?

[Cebolla]

MetalNuts

 

All you've reported to have done is check that MinimServer on the Synology NAS is running with UTF-8, which all applications on that type of NAS need to have for proper use of Chinese charcters.

 

You have not said if you've checked if the data you are using, ie the music files' tag data is also all UTF-8 for Chinese charcters, as suggested in the above posts. Obviously, check the music files first that you know are having problems. Unlike the Synology NAS's operating system, your computer can use other encodings as well as UTF-8 for Chinese characters which wiuld explain why JRiver is ok with all your music files (& very likely MinimServer would be ok too, if you bothered to install it to run on the computer for a test).

 

When you have reported on this, then may be it can be resolved.

[Cebolla]

I have been using the same computer specially DIY for CAS running Windows 7 and all my CDs are ripped with this computer using the DBPowerAmp and all the Chinese are input by myself using the same input method.

Well at last some info that should be useful. Shame it's taken half a page of posts before we got the "hints", as Psme as very tactfully (& patiently) put it.

 

 

 

Wouldn't it be strange to anyone with minimum computer knowledge that if some of the albums can display, some cannot, the cause cannot be the encoding and decoding of my computer and/or NAS.

I suppose it would depend if the definition of a person with minimum computer knowledge would include them knowing something about operating systems, the fact that different OSs can be run on different machines and that Windows (7 or otherwise) on a computer is not the same as Linux running on a NAS.

 

 

 

Please be thoughtful and don't underestimate the extensive investigation I have made.

That was my fear that you had been spending a long time possibly looking at the wrong thing, coming up with the conclusions (such as a problem with MinimServer) without concrete evidence and I just wanted to steer you in a better direction. I would call that being thoughtul, so my appologies if you do not think so.

 

 

 

Should I waste my time solving the problem that minimserver should have fixed? What's wrong with falling back to JRiver server that works with Chinese Character until there's a fix (if any)? People of civilised world are free to choose whatever they consider best, right?

??? Don't think I mentioned anything to suggest you should do otherwise with those questions of yours nor why what I've said should make you come up with them in the first place. You really have got a bee in your bonnet about MinimServer, haven't you?

 

 

 

If you are certain of any cure that works, my ears are all yours, until then, I would prefer to use my time enjoying music than to listening some blind guess suggestion. Thank you very much.

No one can be certain and we can only really advise. It's up to you to if you want to follow it or not. My suggestions, the logic of which I explained (& not contested by anyone), have certainly not been blind guesses. Unlike Psme, I've lost patience repeating myself giving advise that has appeared to have been ignored and will now leave this issue to others.

[Cebolla]

With respect, I don't think I need advice from someone who had recommended to install minimserver on the PC/Mac as well to see if it can fix the display of Chinese Character. LOL!

Oh dear yet another misinterpretation and misrepresentation of what I've been saying. I'll put it down to something lost in translation and leave it at that.

 

My apologies to Psme & others for adding to this pointless conversation on an otherwise excellent thread. It shan't happen again.

[Cebolla]

@Distinctive, sorry, I meant the method of accessing TIDAL login/account information is proprietary between Aries and it's controller app, I think! I don't have a Aries, hence I ask if Aries works with BubbleDS Next app for TIDAL integration. If it works, it should work with LUMIN app.

Psme, I believe you are correct in that Aries's support of OpenHome Media does not extend to accessing & streaming from TIDAL as Linn devices do. However, does the ohMedia spec actually define how internet service streaming should be implemented? Otherwise, the way Linn devices stream from TIDAL could also be considered 'proprietary'.

 

Ironically, if Distinctive sets the Aries device to use standard UPnP instead of OpenHome, then it should be able to use ohMedia control points that use Linn's method of accessing TIDAL, by using the BubbleUPnP Server helper application to provide the OpenHome renderer front end for the Aries!

 

John

[Cebolla]

So the BubbleUPnP Server application couldn't see the Aries set as a UPnP renderer? That is odd.

I don't know what the licence issue is, the application has always been free. Unless... you haven't confused it with the similarly named BubbleUPnP app for Android, by any chance? That does have a paid for licence as well as a free version.

 

Despite their names and them sharing the same developer, they are not the same software and have totally different functions. The application I'm referring to is this one, designed to be run on some NASs, as well as Macs, Windows & Linux computers:

BubbleUPnP Server

[Cebolla]

Hopefully you'll should get the Aries (must be set to UPnP) to appear on the list in its Media Renderers tab:

 

You should then be able to 'create' an OpenHome renderer for it, as per the instructions.

[Cebolla]

@cebolla, OpenHome does cover TIDAL service.

 

TidalStreamingService - OpenHome

Thanks or the reference, Psme. It prompted me to go exploring to see if any other internet streaming services are covered by OpenHome. I found one other, Qobuz:

QobuzStreamingService - OpenHome

 

Would it be possible in the future for you to provide support on the LUMIN for Qobuz too?

[Cebolla]

Roon support is coming soon!

Hi psme

 

Is that support via some proprietary streaming arrangement with Roon, or via existing streaming mechanism already going to be supported eg Songcast &Airplay, or have you and other streamer manufacturers managed to convince them to support UPnP?

[Cebolla]

Android APP??!!

When TIDAL will be support?? GRRRRRR

)

While you are waiting for TIDAL support with the LUMIN Android app, you could always try other OpenHome supporting Android controller apps that have TIDAL support and should work with the LUMIN network music player:

Linn Kazoo

BubbleUPnP

BubbleDS Next

[Cebolla]

They are Android apps.

 

Which of the apps did you try?

What is the actual problem, eg, can you actually see & control the Lumin with the app, can you access TIDAL, etc?

[Cebolla]

JRemote is only a remote control app for the JRiver Media Center software, so it cannot be used directly with anything else.

 

You can use JRemote to remote control JRiver Media Center's built-in standard UPnP/DLNA control point in order to control a standard UPnP/DLNA renderer. This does of course require the JRiver Media Center to be running on a networked machine for this to work, since it's the JRiver Media Center that's actually controlling the standard UPnP/DLNA renderer, not JRemote as all JRemote is doing is controlling the JRiver Media Center.

 

If the Lumin still supports standard UPnP/DLNA streaming (I believe it did at one time), then you should be able to use JRemote plus JRMC in this way. However, if the Lumin only supports OpenHome (aka UPnP with Linn extensions) streaming, it won't be possible since standard UPnP/DLNA control points cannot access OpenHome renderers.

[Cebolla]

We test against LUMIN and LINN renderer and MinimServer and the system works fine for me and around 20 users that I know personally.

Hi Psme,

 

I don't know if you are aware, but the OpenHome Player is now officially available from openhome.org, for installing on Linux, Mac, Windows & Raspberry Pi computers.

 

Unfortunately, neither the iOS Lumin nor Android Lumin apps can detect the OpenHome Player (I tried the Windows version). All other OpenHome control points I tried had no such problems, eg, Linn Kazoo, BubbleDS Next & BubbleUPnP.

I even tried the BubbleUPnP Server created OpenHome renderer with the OpenHome Player (as it presents a standard UPnP AV renderer as well as an OpenHome renderer) and only then was the Lumin app able to detect & control the OpenHome Player.

 

The same issue with the Lumin app has been reported for the Mac version of the OpenHome Player:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/best-pc-universal-plug-dplay-software-streaming-setup-19296/index2.html#post520236 (4th paragraph)

 

John

[Cebolla]

On 8/9/2017 at 9:48 AM, wklie said:

Lumin released Firmware 9.01 to Fully Decode MQA.  Lumin offers the most flexible MQA settings in the market.  This post explains the Lumin MQA Settings.  Currently this post applies to Lumin S1 / A1 / T1 / D1.

 

Hi wklie,

 

Does the Lumin device support for Full Decode MQA apply to network streaming your own MQA files (ie, provided by a UPnP/DLNA media server on your own network), or is it just for the TIDAL Masters streamed from the TIDAL Hi-Fi online service?

 

If it does also apply to streaming your own MQA files, what happens if you select the Off Mode for MQA when streaming your own MQA files?

I'm assuming this is not possible when streaming your own MQA files, even if you have logged into TIDAL Hi-Fi:

On 8/9/2017 at 9:48 AM, wklie said:

Off Mode:

- This is case A in the article.
- Starting from Firmware 9.01, if MQA is set to Off, Lumin retrieves the 16/44.1kHz version of Tidal master instead of the 24-bit version for any MQA decoding.

 

John

[Cebolla]

Excellent, thanks for that wklie!

 

10 minutes ago, wklie said:

For local MQA files, if MQA mode is Off, the MQA music (usually delivered as 24-bit 44.1/48kHz) will be played without MQA decoding (unfolding) to both analog and digital outputs, and upsampling to DSD is allowed.

Ok, so for local files, MQA off mode equates to MQA passthrough mode without the upsampling/volume control and analogue output restrictions.

[Cebolla]

Yes, understood. The display needs to reflect the mode selected.

[Cebolla]

4 hours ago, kelly200269 said:

Thanks for this. It's all a bit 'over my head', but my ears seem to support what they are saying. 

Just out of interest, what's Lumin's opinion on MQA? I know you support it now, but do you feel it sounds better than Hi-res PCM?

Hi Kelly,

 

Perhaps you could give us your own opinion, though not using TIDAL as the source. This is because there's no way of telling whether TIDAL Masters MQA tracks have come from the same original source as any hi-res conventional PCM version of the same tracks you may already have. Certainly the suspicion, by some, is that the majority of the 16/44.1kHz CD resolution TIDAL HiFi tracks are not derived from the same source as the TIDAL Masters MQA tracks.

 

However, using the free files available to download from 2L Label's test bench, you can confidently make a direct comparison, as all the available resolutions and encodings, including MQA, have been confirmed to have been derived from the same DXD source:

2L High Resolution Music .:. free TEST BENCH

 

An interesting comparison would be fully decoded MQA vs all available hi-res & CD resolutions of the stereo 'normal' FLAC files (including DXD).

Another one, perhaps, would be to compare undecoded MQA with CD resolution FLAC.

 

John

[Cebolla]

1 hour ago, One and a half said:

How does the Lumin work with JRiver, very curious about this.

 

Is Jriver's output the network streamer selection, rather than a connected DAC or some other end point? Or is Jriver the DLNA server and the Lumin 'pulls' from the server.

Lumin streaming devices work with JRiver just like any other standard UPnP/DLNA renderer - you have the option of:

either using JRiver Media Center's built-in UPnP/DLNA control point to control the playback of the renderer streaming audio files from any UPnP/DLNA media server on the network;

and/or using JMC's built-in UPnP/DLNA media server to provide it with audio files (from JMC's own media file library) to stream from over the network.

 

JMC's UPnP/DLNA media server has been designed by JRiver to only provide the UPnP/DLNA renderer with descrete audio file tracks, not the (realtime) digital audio signal produced by JMC itself decoding & playing said audio files through its audio engine - if that's what you mean by JRiver's "output" to an "end point". However, JMC's UPnP/DLNA media server can be configured to apply some of its DSP functions to alter the original file tracks while streaming, ie, it can transcode the audio data contained in the file being streamed, even convert it to another audio file format.

 

Incidentally, Lumin streamers support both standard UPnP/DLNA streaming and OpenHome (aka UPnP with Linn extensions) streaming. JRiver Media Center can only control standard UPnP/DLNA renderers, but can provide audio files over the network for both types of streamer.

[Cebolla]

On 8/10/2017 at 4:15 PM, kelly200269 said:

Yes, I take your point concerning the 'origin' of the files, both MQA and standard Hi-res FLAC files.

I have many of the MQA Masters as 24/96 stored on my L1, and comparing the two is interesting. The MQA Masters seem less 'blured' and less 'mushy'? It's as if the MQA Master has 'snapped' the music into focus. I'm hearing details in the music that I haven't heard before, and timing seems much improved. It's a little like the difference between 16-bit, and 24-bit files.

 

I was very cynical of the promises MQA made, but after (albeit brief) listening, I'm now a convert.

Without knowing the provenance of the hi-res files when comparing with MQA, I'd personally be more inclined to remain skeptical. However, comparing the 2L sample downloads I mentioned, would certainly go a long way to removing those sorts of doubts.

[Cebolla]

1 hour ago, wklie said:

 

To use Lumin with JRiver, in Tools / Options / Media Network / Add or Configure DLNA Server, add 24-bit Audiophile DAC.  Turn on the option for Bitstream DSD (DoPE).

 

Hi wklie,

 

Why are you suggesting setting up JRiver's UPnP media server to transcode? Namely:

- Setting Tools / Options / Media Network / Add or Configure DLNA Server, add 24-bit Audiophile DAC -> this forces all PCM files (including lossless FLAC, ALAC, AIFF) at all resolutions to transcode to a 24-bit WAV file (at the original file's sampling rate - assuming you haven't engaged any other JRiver DSP);

- Turning the Bitstream DSD (DoPE) -> forces all DSD files to be transcoded to DoP contained in a WAV file.

 

In other words, given that the Lumin streamers can play lossless FLAC, ALAC, AIFF & indeed WAV PCM files and DFF & DSF DSD files natively from a UPnP/DLNA media server over the network, why are you suggesting that the JRiver UPnP/DLNA media server should transcode, especially for those PCM & DSD file formats, to 24-bit WAV and DoP as WAV, respectively?

 

John

[Cebolla]

45 minutes ago, wklie said:

 

No.  With Mode set to Original, I think JRiver does not transcode the PCM files.

 

Ok, thanks for clarifying also needing to set the Mode to "Original" to make sure JRiver does not transcode.

Otherwise just using the default setting of the "Audiophile 24-bit DAC" DLNA server for the Mode, which is "Specified output format" (and given the default setting of Format is "PCM 24 bit"), would most certainly engage transcoding to 24-bit PCM!

 

 

45 minutes ago, wklie said:

At some point in the past, I was sure that JRiver could not send DSD to Lumin unless DoPE was turned on.  If there is any JRiver development that changed this behavior, I don't know about it and I'll find time to test any suggested configuration.

 

Possibly, but I've tested this since version 21 of JRiver and its UPnP/DLNA media server is certainly able to provide DSD files natively for streaming, if the Mode is "Original" and DoPE is off.

 

 

Which reminds me, I've previously posted about this, with a fair amount of detail, about the appropriate settings for JRiver's UPnP/DLNA media server to make sure it doesn't transcode, in the Streaming and Teac NT-503 thread:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/28322-streaming-and-teac-nt-503/?tab=comments#comment-672888

[Cebolla]

Not sure where the SACD .ISO files came from or why you assume I have an NT-503 - I don't have either!

 

Do you believe that JRiver loading a SACD .ISO is exactly the same as it providing actual DSD files (ie DSF & DFF files) natively for network streaming?