which pre-amp advice needed plus how to integrate HT?

[samwisesam]

hi there,

 

At the start of the year this site played a pivitol role in getting me started on the computer audiophile journey. I now have an Audiolab 8200cd player utilising JRiver front end via laptop USB. This is driven by my Rotel RSP 1066 and RMB 1075 5 channel power amp. I use Quad speakers all around plus an MJ Acoustic sub woofer and Pioneer Bluray. I have been suprised by the quality of using flac/alac files via usb and delighted at some of the 24/96 downloads I now have. However, my stereo system is to some extend a compromise because of the desire to also enjoy movie/music surround sound. I selected Rotel processor/power amp because they seemed to focus on geting the best out of stereo music also. However, I feel I am not making the best of my stereo system in trying to achieve quality in both. And music is still my main passion. I have read some threads on here for advice and have picked up useful info re HT Bypass although must admit to not fully understanding exactly how it works. I feel my next step should be to add a stereo pre-amp (perhaps an integrated amp) but what should I consider that would improve on the Rotel processor pre amp section and under £1k. I would consider second hand as ideally I don't want to top £500.

 

Also, how do I integrate my stereo system into my HT? I don't ideally want two seperate systems.

 

I have thought about trading in my 8200CD to upgrade it to CDQ which has a pre amp but that will cost me £550 net and I am not sure it's the best solution (Although possibly the neatest in the short term). If I want to upgrade later I will not have the trade in potential as all my eggs are in the same basket e.g. if I want to improve the DAC I will need to keep the CDQ as I still need the preamp section. So I wont be able to utilse the CDQ as trade in. Any advice would be appreciated however off the wall.

 

I notice that the Musical Fidelity M1 m3i has a HT aux input for connecting a processor but I am not sure if this is the same as HT bypass. Also, I've seen some good deals on Audio Note M Zero R but would appreciate views on whether this would be a step up and whether it's possible to integrate this into a HT/stereo set up?

 

thanks

 

Jamie

 

[Mark Powell]

The standard way is to use a preamp, or integrated amp with an 'HT Bypass'. That is what I do. Not quite there yet but near enough.

 

The HT Bypass input of the amp, be it a preamp or the preamp section of an integrated, has a fixed gain. it bypasses its own volume control.

 

You connect this to the front left and right preamp out sockets of your AV receiver, and move your speaker cables from your AV receiver to your amplifier. Then you re-run the AV receiver set up process which will match in your external amp as if it was its own.

 

That is what to to to add a new pre-power amp, separates or integrated. provided it has an HT Bypass input.

 

If, like me, you buy a new power amp only, you plug that into the AV receivers preamp out front left and right sockets and move the speaker cables, re-run the setup. My recently purchased amp is a McIntosh 275 tube amp, connected to a Yamaha AV receiver and it all works fine, stereo, multi channel films, plain TV, whatever.

 

If running 'high quality' 2 channel stereo, put your AV box into 'Pure Direct' or whatever it happens to be called.

 

But presently I am still stuck with using the Yamaha as a preamp for everything until I buy a dedicated preamp with an HT bypass, plugged in as above, and moving my CD Player, turntable, and computer/DAC to some of its other inputs. Also of course, I will connect the McIntosh to that. The Yamaha front preamp outputs then become just another stereo source. Its rear, subwoofer, and whatnot connections are unchanged. And its, not the preamps, volume control works all the 5, 6, or 7 speakers, including the front two, but only in 'film' mode.

 

[samwisesam]

thanks for the advice Mark. I was thinking of doing it the other way around. In that I will look for a Pre Amp first with HT Bypass. The reason bieng that I think the Rotel processor pre amp section is probably weaker than the power amp. Hopefully, I will get a noticeable improvement by adding a dedicated PA but one issue I have is how much do I need to spend to get that noticeable improvement? I am thinking of perhaps going second hand as I don't have a great deal to play with now the recession is biting - no pay rise for two years! A Rotel PA like the RC 1580 woud seem logical but I am tempted by Musical Fidelity and Creek as well. Are the any other lesser known makes that I should consider? I notice on this site a lot of stuff I've not come across - that's the limitation of mags like What HIFI I guess as it focuses on mainstream.

 

Did you get a big improvement by adding a quality power amp?

 

cheers Jamie

 

[Mark Powell]

Yes, but it was a pretty expenive power amp. I really think you have to spend a lot to make a real difference.

 

The problem with doing the preamp first is that you have to make sure than the AV receiver has power amp in sockets as well as preamp out sockets, assuming it is all one box, as my Yamaha is. Mine hasn't, so I did power amp first.

 

I'm in the UK, and had never heard of some of these US amps. But for a new country I think they are quite good at it!

 

[samwisesam]

yes they don't do bad for a former colony :)lol.

 

Another option for me would be to try out the Audiolab matching pre amp as well. The more you get into audio the harder it is to achieve a big step up without major outlay. I am looking at the best part of a grand but I am not sure I will get a big jump in quality. That's why I was quite tempted to dabble with second hand, less of a loss financially if the difference isn't significant. However, I've not seen any S/H gear with HT bypass yet. I suppose I could get any pre amp and then add a 2 phono in; 1 phono out switch box?

 

cheers Jamie

 

[Mark Powell]

I think the absolute minimum new spend would be the Naim NAIT XS integrated at about £1450. Not the regular one, but the XS. It is completely different. Looks neat too. Its HT bypass is labelled AV or something, and I believe (I am not sure) that you configure with the remote.

 

All Naim stuff has got a terrific 'boogie factor'.

 

Know nothing about the Audio Note. Some of their stuff is a bit odd.

 

Don't think a switch box is any help. The point of an HT bypass, and its only point, is that it bypasses the amps volume control, so anything plugged into that input goes straight through.

 

[Kiwi2]

Not many pre-amps have HT bypass. What I did was to run the RCAs from the pre-outs of both my AVR and 2ch pre-amp to a decent 3 way RCA switch... then that went to the front's poweramp.

 

HT bypass is just the RCA switch moved on-board.

 

e.g..

 

[samwisesam]

hi again,

 

one of my first amps was a naim nait and I loved it - like you say it really majored on rythem and enjoyment. I am beginning to realise though that to get a decent improvement I may need to save for a bit longer. Trouble is I'm chomping at the bit!

 

Kiwi,

 

thanks for the diagram. That's what I was thinking about originally as a potential solution. I've done the same for my HDMI connections to TV and Projector and it seems to work well without any noticeable adverse effect on picture quality. It would open up a few more options in terms of pre amps or integrated amps particularly slightly older products. I think I'll get myself along to a few of the local audio shops and have a chat about options and do some listening so I know more about what I am aiming for.

 

cheers guys

 

Jamie

 

 

[Dav9]

Hi Jamie, I used the Parasound model 2100 HT bypass preamp as a good starting place. It is very flexible, even doing bass management with a AV sub passthru (very helpful) and adjustable sub crossover and level. Not sure if they distribute in your area though. If bought used should be in your price range, I recently sold mine for $525 Cdn. It was an entry level 2 ch for sound quality though (but very competitive at it's price).

 

Lots of others out there like the Primare Pre 30 you should be able to find. One advantage of a pre instead of an integrated is that it may not need to be powered on when using your AV processor.

 

also some of these integrateds:

 

Creek 5350SE

Densen B110

Flying Mole CA-S10

Naim Nait 5i

Primare I21

SimAudio Moon i3 RS

YBA Integre DT

 

which among others are discussed in a good thread here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12152602

 

On a SQ note, if you are connecting your laptop to a non async usb input you may wish to consider an async usb to spdif converter like the Musical Fidelity V Link. Does 24/96 and is plug and play. I'm playing around with one now - not nearly as natural compared to my dB Audiolabs dac going direct to my amp but a good option.

 

[papageno]

Mark,

I am struggling with a similar setup problem of how to best integrate surround sound and 2 channel. I have a Rotel pre/pro and a Rotel 5 channel amp. Ideally, I would like to get the 2 channel to play through a separate amp. For the long run (thinking of upgrades in the future) is it then better to get a preamp with two different outputs (one going to your multichannel amp and the other to your 2 channel amp when needed). This way, when I have multichannel everything plays through my Rotel and when I have two channel it plays through a separate amp.

Thoughts??

 

[Mark Powell]

I do not think preamps with two outputs are anywhere near as easily available as preamps with HT bypass. Some have two ouputs by way of offering the usual unbalanced RCA and Balanced XLR outputs, but that is not quite the same thing.

 

My Yamaha is all one box, so the best way to do it is as I said, A pre with HT bypass, to which the front pre-outs of the Yamaha go, and a power amp. All the centre, surround, back, and whatever you leave unchanged. Then you have a totally 'regular' two channel setup to which the front outputs of the AV box is attached, as a two channel source, just the same as all the other sources.

 

If you dont have HT bypass all that happens is that you now have two volume controls to play with, which is a nuisance. but no more than a nuisance. You have to set up the AV room equalisation with the external preamp volume at, say, 12 o'clock, and remember to put it back to 12 o'clock when you watch a film.

 

None of this is a problem, provided you think of the AV front pre-out sockets as a 'source', just like a tuner, CD, turntable, or anything else. Forget the other AV outputs, you have those connected already.

 

[Dav9]

papageno, if you wish to use a higher quality 2 ch power amp compared to your Rotel, along with a 2 ch preamp, here are the flow connections:

 

for 2 channel:

analog stereo sources(phono, cd, dac)>2 ch preamp analog ins>2 ch power amp inputs>L/R front speakers.

 

for AV surround sound:

digital coax/optical/hdmi sources (satellite, game, music server)>receiver/processor digital inputs>Centre, RS, LS preouts> multi channel power amp C, RS, LS inputs>C, RS, LS speakers

 

AND

 

L/R receiver/processor preouts>2 ch preamp HT bypass analog in>2 ch power amp inputs>L/R front speakers.

 

[papageno]

Thanks David, the connections are now clear to me. If one utilizes two amps with HT bypass (I.e. the front speakers being driven by a 2 channel amp), does the 2 channel and the multichannel amp have to be similar in many ways? If I use a mixture of SS and VT amps, does any "discontinuity" in the sound creep in? For instance, I had a mixture of ESLs and ribbon speakers for multichannel music and one could clearly make out that there were different drivers being used. Hope that is not the same with different amps driving different speakers.

 

[Dav9]

I don't believe I have ever heard a tube amp running the fronts and a SS feeding the centre speaker. Certain tube amps have gotten closer in sound to SS and vice versa so the "discontinuity" could be reduced but I would guess that not matching the 3 front speakers would have more of an effect due to timbre, dispersion, etc. differences. One of the reasons I myself used a 5 ch multi amp was to have the front 3 spks on the same amp but I didn't actually do any comparisons.

 

Some amplifier manufacturers produce 3 ch amps aimed to power the L,R,C spks.

 

You may just need to get a trial loan a 2 ch tube amp you like to see how it sounds.

 

[samwisesam]

thanks David

 

for the advice and suggestions on potential pre-amps. There are some there I have not considered but will now. I am thankfully using an async USB connection on my audiolab 8200 so the quality is really good. I've also just ripped some DVD=A's and DVD V 's containing 24/96 albums and have been impressed with the results. Mainly Neil Young and Bruce Springsteen. Also, Elvis 30 no 1's - on which some of the 60's material in particular sounds great. I used DVD Audio Extractor which works a treat. My Universal Denon DVDA/SACD/DVD player has given up the ghost so being able to rip my small collection of DVD'A's has been really useful.

 

I'll have a look at that thread as well thanks

 

cheers Jamie