Building NAA for HQplayer

[cpcat]

I tried this for about 6 hours yesterday and couldn’t get it to work.  I am using hqpe on Ubuntu 22.04 with fitlet 2 as NAA on my home network.  I tried both ramfs and x64 images, 4.4 and 4.31, (balenaetcher on multiple usb sticks, both booted fine, could see “NAA” on my router GUI (netgear).  I had the ufw firewall disabled on the Ubuntu PC, rebooted/repowered multiple times including DAC, Ubuntu PC and the router.  I couldn’t think if anything else to try so gave up.  Hqpe would look for NAA but always came up with zero on the log file, DAC would never appear.

 

I am using power line adapters (netgear) on my network and maybe that is the problem.  I don’t have any managed switches, just unmanaged and a switch is between the Fitlet2  and the power line adapter, another switch, then another power line adapter, then my router downstairs where the Ubuntu/hqpe PC is.

 

I reverted back to SnakeoilOS on the fitlet2 (small audio program, Ubuntu based, that includes HqplayerNAA) and now everything just works again.

 

So this could be an optional workaround I guess for someone out there if they run into trouble with the naaOS image running/appearing on their network.

[cpcat]

Good to know maybe I will try again at some point with HqpeOS.  I actually did consider trying that- but didn’t as was not aware of the 2 Ethernet port issue.

[cpcat]

 

 

I wonder if there is a way to disable one of the fitlet Ethernet ports 🤔 

[cpcat]

 

[cpcat]

I guess either eth0 or eth1 needs to be disabled.  
 

Sounds pretty darn good right now though 😊 

[cpcat]

So I was able to disable one Ethernet port  in bios on the Fitlet2.  NAA OS now works.  Thanks Stefano!

[cpcat]

1 hour ago, dericchan1 said:

Can you please advise how did you manage to disable to port in bios?

 

thanks

 

Deric

Here are instructions:

 

For me, disabling #4 port worked and left the physical port on the farthest edge of the chassis enabled.

[cpcat]

Low level background static/cracks/ pops/tics on NAA -only when converting to 256 DSD.  It is more noticeable with 256x48 (hires pcm), during quiet passages, and when paused.

 

Running HQPE on Ubuntu 22.04 LTS minimal server currently over upnp with Daphile/LMS.  It also occurred similarly with Ubuntu minimal desktop,  and also with using HQPDcontrol and local library.  CPU is AMD 5800u, ASUS PN51-S1 in Akasa fanless case.  CPU temps run around 50 C.  DAC is Lampizator Big7 MKII with JLSounds USB board.  I have Netgear router, Netgear unmanaged switches, and Netgear power line adapters on my network.

 

Have NAA image on a fitlet2.  Have tried both regular and ramfs versions and they are the same with regards to above.  This occurs on 256 DSD conversion only, independent of filter, have background noise as described and ONLY on left channel.

 

It also happens with SnakeoilOS loaded on fitlet2 which also includes HQPlayerNAA.

 

It goes away with any other setting (512,128, PCM, source, etc.)

 

It goes away with DSD direct 256.

 

It goes away completely when attaching PC directly to DAC and utilizing ALSA.

 

I am using 48k DSD and auto rate family checked with max bitrate 12.288 mhz.

 

Any ideas?

[cpcat]

1 hour ago, bogi said:

@cpcatIf DSD256 stream is not corrupted then (from digital signal point of view) NAA cannot distinguish if your DSD256 stream originated as direct DSD256 or if it is result of upsampling in HQPlayer.

 

Did you try some light HQPlayer filter and modulator, if the static/cracks/ pops/tics will occur? For example poly-sinc-short-2s and DSD5 modulator? It could answer if the behavior you described depends on how heavy HQPlayer processing is. It looks to me that your computer outputs corrupted network stream in the case of upsampled DSD256. Or your computer is source of very specific noise or data transfer timing inaccuracy which causes errors in downstream equipment, but only in case of upsampled DSD256. I know, yet more crazy. :D

 

I can’t say I have tried every one, but from up and down the list including -2s.     

Only for comparison test, do you have a chance to try some other computer capable of DSD256/HQPlayer? Something with at least 4 cores and 3 GHz turbo could be enough. Even a notebook.

 

No, It’s not easy to do this with embedded, guess I could try with HQPE OS though.  Thanks for the suggestion.  

 

1 hour ago, bogi said:

 

When you tested directly connected DAC to HQPlayer computer did you use the same USB cable (and other possible treatment) as with your NAAs?

Yes-just a standard one, not fancy.

1 hour ago, bogi said:

 

Are you using wired or wireless LAN? Did you try any change in your network setup?

Wired and no change, although I did try moving the HQPe PC to another location-no difference.

1 hour ago, bogi said:

 

I know  my explanation attempt looks crazy. I am looking forward to other explanations.

Thanks for the help-I am still working on this.  I will try the other usb ports on the fitlet2 next, didn’t think to try that yet.

[cpcat]

Thanks Miska- will try other usb ports (even usb 2.0 should work right?) on the naa pc.  I have other power line adapters I could try too.  Unfortunately, I don’t have a direct Ethernet connection to the DAC location without a power line adapter.  
 

I thought about running a long Ethernet cable directly to the router downstairs just for troubleshooting-could pay someone to run a line if that fixes it.

 

Since my HQPe PC is fanless and fairly compact, the other option is to just move it to the DAC.  

[cpcat]

On 4/24/2023 at 1:29 PM, cpcat said:

1 hour ago, Miska said:

 

 

You should normally leave it default. If the network is  challenging, using lower values like 10 ms may help.

Could this help me possibly?  Couldn’t hurt to try I guess.

1 hour ago, Miska said:

 

 

 

 

[cpcat]

On 4/27/2023 at 5:01 PM, Miska said:

 

Sounds like USB packet loss or similar issue between the source and the DAC.

 

USB packet contains 125 microseconds of data, having such packet lost results in sounds like dust particles on vinyl.

 

If clocking goes out of sync, then you have typically static overlay with the music. But it can also happen due to data loss.

 

So, I tried another power line adapter in a different ac socket.  Same unfortunately-pops/tics like an album.

 

Right now I am listening to the USB 2.0 port on the Fitlet 2- for the last 30 min no tics/pops - even when paused and with the VC at max (which is my test for noise as before).  
 

So, it appears that for me and the Fitlet 2 with NAA the USB 2.0 port is the answer to the packet loss noise (background tics/pops/crackling).

 

I have searched the USB specs and can’t find much on DSD.  I assume since it is working it is ok- but why would USB 3.0 have packet loss and 2.0 would not?

[cpcat]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

 

Have you tried with different cables? What was the output device (sorry, I don't remember)? Cable issue is possible.

 

Another possible reason is some incompatibility between the USB 3 controller in fitlet2 SoC and the DAC's USB interface.

 

The DAC is Lampizator Big7 MKII with JLSounds usb board.   I use LMS/Daphile via upnp as server and a QNAP NAS.  The HQPe PC is Asus PN-51-s1 with AMD 5800u CPU, running Ubuntu 22.04 server minimal install -in a fanless Akasa case.  My network consists of cable modem, Netgear router, unmanaged switches, Netgear powerline adapters.
 

The thing is, right now as I sit here, the crackles are gone using USB 3.0 output on the fitlet2 NAA.  I put in an additional  power line adapter dedicated to the DAC/NAA and through a different AC socket as a trouble shooting measure - it seems to have worked -for now.  However, the issue has been intermittent which makes it even more difficult to isolate.

 

Thanks Miska, I immensely enjoy your product.

[cpcat]

2 hours ago, Miska said:

 

I don't know details of such setup. Is the QNAP acting as UPnP Media Server? If not, there are three network hops that matter. Is it like NAS -> LMS -> HQPlayer -> NAA?

Setup is QNAP NAS->LMS(Daphile) on Fitlet2->HQPe PC (Ubuntu server)->second Fitlet2 (NAA).  

2 hours ago, Miska said:

 

JLSounds is very reliable and generally trouble free. I just recommend using USB HiSpeed Certified cables.

 

Likely tricky part are powerline adapters or wireless bridges which can have varying performance depending on the environment at the particular moment.

 

 

Biggest trouble makers for things like power line adapters and similar are anything with large electric motors and tube lights. Such as washing machines, AC, and similar. So when problems emerge, I would recommend to keep eye what is drawing current from the mains at that moment.

 

 

Thanks again, will try to pay attention to that.  Still quiet here, maybe it is finally solved.  😊 Sound is phenomenal so it is worth the effort.

[cpcat]

19 hours ago, Miska said:

 

I don't know details of such setup. Is the QNAP acting as UPnP Media Server? If not, there are three network hops that matter. Is it like NAS -> LMS -> HQPlayer -> NAA?

 

JLSounds is very reliable and generally trouble free. I just recommend using USB HiSpeed Certified cables.

 

Likely tricky part are powerline adapters or wireless bridges which can have varying performance depending on the environment at the particular moment.

 

 

Biggest trouble makers for things like power line adapters and similar are anything with large electric motors and tube lights. Such as washing machines, AC, and similar. So when problems emerge, I would recommend to keep eye what is drawing current from the mains at that moment.

 

 

Ok so it recurred.  When I sat down to listen this afternoon it (static/pops/cracks) was back.  No major appliance or HVAC correlation either at least as far as I can tell.  The only thing that changed is I did shut the HQPe PC down last night, then restarted today before my first listen of the day.  The DAC, NAS, LMS/Daphile PC were all left on overnite.

 

What I did discover is that rebooting the NAA pc (fitlet2) fixes it and have confirmed that twice….

[cpcat]

16 hours ago, stefano_mbp said:

Dac must be powered on for first, then power on NAA and finally power on HQPlayer

Thanks.  I think I will leave my HQPe server PC on from now on.  It is a server right?

I normally switch my DAC off at nite though to save tube life.  The NAS has a power schedule and goes off at 2 am , on at 5 pm on weekdays.  
 

I loaded my music library on the SSD where HQPe resides yesterday after some fanfare with samba and permissions etc.  I also ended up needing to install Avahi  in the process for local host name recognition.   I forgot how nice the HQPD control app is. 😊 
 

I didn’t have any more problems all day yesterday with the noise so -fingers crossed.  Now that I know that rebooting the NAA fixes it- less of a problem. 

[cpcat]

Update on crackling /popping—-

 

I have tried everything to “fix” this -what I have come up with is the likely explanation is that my Lampizator Big 7 MKII (JL Sounds) probably doesnt fully support 48k DSD -even though it advertises such through USB.  At least for now, with 48k unchecked and auto rate family unchecked the issue is gone.

 

Does this make sense?

[cpcat]

I have tried and tried but am unsuccessful in getting either of my 2 Fitlet2’s  to boot @Miska’s latest 5.0.0 NAA image from microSD.  I am careful to download the 7z file, unzip with 7zip and multiple flashes from balenaetcher, Rufus, and raspberry pi imager all unsuccessful - the bios doesn’t seem to even recognize the SD as bootable - although SD is selectable in boot order.  
 

I don’t have any issues booting the same NAA image from USB- I was just playing around with the microsd option for lower power consumption/theoretical lower noise.

 

Has anyone else had success with Fitlet2 booting NAA from microSD?

 

I checked the bios version on the fitlet2 and I am on the latest.  I also tried both micro SDHC and SDXC cards 32gb and 64gb respectively.

[cpcat]

7 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

You could try with USB attached SDcard reader. It should look exactly same as regular USB memory stick to the BIOS and OS.

 

Kingston for example makes tiny metal cased readers that are suitable.

 

Thanks, would this be theoretical lower noise/power similar to using the microSD slot?

[cpcat]

So I bought a lexar usb microSD card reader- I ended up both using it to flash the image on my PC, as well as for boot on the Fitlet2 .  Works great. Thanks for the suggestion @Miska.  I was successful with both 32 gb and 64 microSD cards with the USB reader.  It was interesting how the Fitlet2 bios distinguished them in the boot order menu.  The 32 gb was a “USB key” while the 64 gb was recognized as a “USB HDD”.  
 

  I did retry the microSD slot with the same cards-still not recognized for boot.    

 

That has me thinking- maybe the 32 gb and 64 gb version microSD cards simply aren’t recognized in the microSD slot because too large?  I have both a 16 gb and 8 gb version microSD card on order to try next just for fun.

[cpcat]

On 4/19/2024 at 5:03 AM, stefano_mbp said:

Maybe it simply cannot boot from microSD. My Intel Nuc for example has a microSD card slot but it cannot boot from it, just from usb

I figured it out. 🤩

 

I am stupid, I wasn’t pushing the MicroSD card in enough.  It has to go all the way in and click- then it stays in a recessed position.  It is a little tricky though, and , at least on the Fitlet2, you then push it in again to disengage and remove it.  It takes either a long fingernail or a small plastic object like a pen cap.

 

Additionally, in bios you have to enable it in the boot order as for example “HDD SDHC”  or “HDD SDXC” depending on your microSD card version.  It isn’t recognized simply by having “SD” enabled in boot options.  It takes a little longer to boot up as well.

 

So, now I have like 8 cards all with NAA 5.0.0 on them so I think I am set. 😅