D/A converter vs built in converters in AirPort or receiver and the curse of over the air Dolby Digital

[sensel]

If you plug an (Apple style) TOSLINK optical cable into an AirPort Express getting music from your iTunes library on an iMac and run that cable to an MCM 24Bit/96K D/A Toslink/Coax Digital Input to Line Level Output Converter then the analog cable to a nice and plenty powerful enough for me 2 channel analog Yamaha receiver to some Magnepan MMG speakers - will that sound better than running a minijack to RCA cable from the Express to the same Yamaha and Magnepans?

 

Doesn't the AirPort Express *already* have a digital to analog converter in it and, how does it compare to a decent 4? ready receiver with a D/A converter already in it for an incoming optical signal versus something like the MCM?

 

I'm trying to keep that old Yamaha as it works perfect for me on the MMGs for music. But, to keep things short here, I may need to get a newer receiver with a TOSLINK audio in *anyhow* to process some over the air HDTV Dolby crud (even though I don't want surround) to the MMGs. The MCM converter does not process out the Dolby static. So if I have to go out and buy a whole new receiver, I'll just return the MCM (bought not knowing about over the air Dolby Digital from stations) and make sure the receiver has a good converter in it already.

 

No, my TV, which is also otherwise perfect for what I need, cannot turn off the incoming over the air HDTV Dolby Digital.

 

[audioengr]

The good news is the Magnepans. The bad news is the AE and the Yamaha receiver.

 

The Yamaha may get loud, but it will always limit your sound quality IMO. It's not about watts, its about quality watts, and particularly low-impedance, which the receiver does not give you.

 

The AE I have a lot of experience with. It is one of the highest jitter devices available. If you are close enough to use a 16 foot wire, then I highly recommend going with USB cable to a USB DAC or USB converter driving a decent DAC. Even if you have to put a rug over the wire.

 

The DAC inside the AE is junk. Forget it, unless all you want is background music. If you want sound quality that you can listen to all day without fatigue, the AE is not it.

 

My advice is: Find yourself a good used integrated amp on Audiogon and drive it with a W4S DAC driven from a really good USB converter. This will make real music.

 

Steve N.

Empirical Audio

 

[sensel]

Steve N.:

 

Thanks for the feedback. I have a few questions though about your answers.

 

The Yamaha is an RX-595. I spoke to engineers at Magnepan in the mid 1990s when I bought the speakers direct. While they are vehement in not telling customers which receiver or amp brand or model to get, when I read the specks to them, they said it was a good and would work with the speakers. I play some high quality classical guitar CDs on it and just about everything else and am happy. Yes, I can blast it so load it hurts with no distortion (which I don't). So what is wrong with it again for my use with the MMGs?

 

Why do you consider the AE DAC junk? Technically, what makes it a less desirable DAC than the next DAC up in quality? Also, as I mentioned, I did pick up the MCM DAC, which I can run TOSLINK from the AE to. For the moment, I will not be running direct from the computer. Although at some point, an older Mac Mini, which I will load up with my collection, will become part of this set up but, not for a year.

 

Also, in a way, the main question is the over the air HDTV signals carrying Dolby and how to deal with that to the stereo. Right now, it looks like replacing the receiver with one that has Dolby processing to allow me to play on the MMGs not only music but also the Dolby HDTV sound would be the simplest solution.

 

I have toyed with getting used amps in the past but, I'm just to f--cking old, busy with more important things, and poor for audiophile techno snobbery. I just want to focus on simplicity and ease of use. I don't want nor can I afford a Porsche but a Miata is fun and I drive a Mazda 6 Wagon most of the time.

 

Todays better receivers are excellent, practical, and affordable. I just wish I could find a similar 4? Yamaha unit with HD radio built in and no XM.

 

[Audio_ELF]

I'm pretty sure your MCM DAC (I understand it's very similar to the Beresford 7510) will be better than the DAC in the Airport Express. This fed into your Yamaha (Stereo) receiver will (IMO) be better than a modern AV receiver unless you spend significant amount. I would suggest Steve's comment about the Yamaha being "bad news" is based on the (possible) mismatch and that Magnepan speakers are probably more regularly used with high end brands than what many would consider being more mid level brands like Yamaha... in other words audiophile snobbery!!! I'm in no doubt than other amplifiers may get a better sound out the Magnepans but this would not be a cheap fix!

 

Your problem with OTA (over the air) Dolby Digital signals may be easy to solve: most cable / satellite receivers can be configured to output Bitstream / Dolby Digital (the term used varies between receivers) or PCM / Stereo. Try checking through all the option menus on your receiver.

 

As Steve says, the Airport Express is not the ultimate in sound quality due to its high jitter level, but for many people is a very adequate source especially fed into a DAC. Based on the cost of the components you have suggesting several hundred pounds / dollar level equipment would not be suitable. Steve's suggestion of using a USB connected DAC or connecting to the MCM via a USB converter such as M2Tech HiFace; or a PCI card such ad ESi Juli@; may work well for you.

 

Eloise

 

[audioengr]

"The Yamaha is an RX-595. I spoke to engineers at Magnepan in the mid 1990s when I bought the speakers direct. While they are vehement in not telling customers which receiver or amp brand or model to get, when I read the specks to them, they said it was a good and would work with the speakers. I play some high quality classical guitar CDs on it and just about everything else and am happy. Yes, I can blast it so load it hurts with no distortion (which I don't). So what is wrong with it again for my use with the MMGs?"

 

I have about 40 years in the upgrade game personally, and 13 years as a manufacturer. I have yet to go into a bricks and mortar stereo salon and hear anything decent, anywhere in the US.

 

Over the last 40 years I had Pioneer, Denon, Rotel, and then Onkyo receivers. I had good speakers, KEF104's. The problem is that the high-end was never sweet and the bass was never tight. These receivers are just gutless I'm afraid. It has little do do with the power ratings. You get what you pay for. As soon as I got amps with low output impedance and high power (Parasound JC-1 monoblocks), everything changed. I realized what I had been missing: the live performance. The emotion in the music. It was never there with a receiver. Then I got ribbon speakers and modded the amps and the speakers. Now we are talking. When it sounds like live music in the next room or 2 rooms away, you know you are doing the right things.

 

This is not about jewelry or status or expensive stuff. It's about sound quality. This is not snobbery. People use better amps with these speakers because these speakers have potential.

 

Maybe you should try a used Jolida tube integrated. This will open your eyes.

 

"Why do you consider the AE DAC junk? Technically, what makes it a less desirable DAC than the next DAC up in quality?"

 

Everything. I have modded the AE years ago, so I know exactly what's inside. I have changed a lot of it. The power supply is a joke, small and switching, the PC board design is a compromise, the output is driven from really cheap op-amps, running from single voltage supply. The clock inside has high jitter. The chip used for digital output, the PCM270X series is well-known for poor digital jitter performance. The analog output is coupled with $.030 electrolytic caps. Everything is wrong for good sound quality. Adding a D/A and output stage I think was an afterthought. I can just hear the marketing guys: if it fits, put it in....

 

You should be looking for:

 

1) Good power supply with excellent regulation, battery is even better

2) DC-coupled output stage or excellent coupling caps

3) full ground-plane boards

4) multiple power supplies for solid-state - Plus and minus voltages

5) preferably a discrete (transistor or tube) output stage

 

You dont have to spend a fortune to get this. Try a used VALAB DAC from ebay or Audiogon. This is a very simple DAC with a decent power supply.

 

Steve N.

 

 

[sensel]

Thanks Eloise.

 

I don't have a cable or satellite receiver anymore. Just is not worth it for me. If you mean the Yamaha RX-595 receiver, it is too old to have that option. It's just stereo. Here is the page for it on the Yamaha web site: http://goo.gl/us4V1

 

But that is the right idea. I need to take the input from OTA and output it to stereo without the Dolby hissing monster. The HDTV I have sadly does not let you do that.

 

I guess I am searching for a Dolby Digital remover that takes the input as TOSLINK.

 

[Audio_ELF]

Steve: I think you maybe confused. The Yamaha the OP is talking about is a stereo analogue amplifier with tuner NOT an AV receiver. I know you have experience I don't, but lumping every receiver into one lump is rather short sighted. That IS audiophiles snobbery! I'm not doubting a dedicated pre and power amp, or high end integrated amp would drive the Mangepan speakers better, but that doesn't make the Yamaha bad!

 

Sensel: from your last comments I assume you are just taking the digital output of a standard TV, even then I would think there should be some way to set the output as stereo rather than Dolby Digital but this varies between TVs. Alternatively why not try the stereo analogue output into the Yamaha. As an alternative, I would look for an older SH Arcam or Rotel AV receiver or pre/processor and power amp (Arcam AVR300/350 or Rotel RSP1068 / RSX1055) rather than a modern Denon or Onkyo. It doesn't sound like HD formats such as bluray are important to you and the older higher end amps will sound better for stereo. (Hope this last bit hasn't confused you more).

 

Eloise

 

[sensel]

Eloise wrote: "you are just taking the digital output of a standard TV, even then I would think there should be some way to set the output as stereo rather than Dolby Digital but this varies between TVs."

 

This HDTV has no way to turn off OTA Dolby Digital. (It actually does have the ability as it has a stereo headphone jack - but there is no Dolby on/off for the user in the menu or even a pair of RCA jacks in the back for stereo only audio out.)

 

I tried every setting and combination thereof. I also called Samsung about it (initially when I knew less about it but still, asked the right questions) and, just to be sure, today again. As expected, the first phone tech did not know the product and did not understand the concept of audio in versus audio out. When I told her there was no analog (RCA) audio out, she insisted there was and she used it on her TV. Just, unbelievable. The next level tech I ask to be moved up too, said there was no way to do it. But he came across as a real turkey too and treated me like I was underneath him.

 

I also spoke with the concierge service of the store where I bought it and, they knew about the TV but, just didn't really know what to say to me. Weird.

 

All of this is all basic audio and video stuff. You would think they would teach the phone techs the difference between audio in and out.

 

So, I am returning a TV I like and got at a good price (it actually does have a lot of other features I wanted and is rated high by users and in reviews) because the only option is to listen, if you can call it that, on 3 Watt internal speakers or buy a whole new Dolby ready amp or receiver I don't want or need nor can I afford.

 

[James1776]

My problem with Yamaha receivers is that I have never heard one with a decent built in DAC and their connection plugs are always cheesy.

 

[James1776]

On the Jolida recommendation...I ran a Jolida with a set of MMG's for 12 years and LOVED the sound BUT be careful, my old Jolida put out 45 Watts, more or less and the much better PrimaLuna I replaced it with only around 35 watts and they would simply not drive the MMG's. If you go tubes, make sure you have enough power.

 

If you like solid state..Rogue or Emotiva make amazing receivers for the buck.

 

[Audio_ELF]

@James1776

 

The Yamaha Receiver the OP refers to is an analogue stereo receiver (integrated amplifier plus tuner) not a AV Receiver so no DAC is included within the receiver!! I don't know about the ones sold in America, but in Europe all Yamaha AV receivers come with standard connectors, no better or worse than any other mid level kit.

 

Eloise

 

[audioengr]

If you want to add insult to injury, then use a DAC inside an AV receiver. This is mass-marketed junk IME. The receivers are bad enough, but the DACs inside AV receivers are abysmal!!!

 

I've listened to plenty. It just makes sense that these are harsh, distorted and noisy. They are built so cheaply with so many shared resources. One capacitor in a good DAC costs more than the entire D/A electronics in a receiver DAC, maybe as much as the BOM cost for the whole thing...

 

It's all a matter of your tolerance or expectations for sound quality. Once you have heard live-sounding playback, it's difficult to settle for anything less. If your pocketbook can't handle it, then look for good used components. You can do it on the cheap and still end-up with great sound quality.

 

Last time I looked, this website was called "computeraudiophile", not computeraudio. This has something to do with the quest for quality I believe, not iPod and MP3.

 

Steve N.

Empirical Audio

 

[James1776]

Blast...I should have noted that. I stand by my connector remarks. The speaker connections could not be cheaper.

 

The receiver does have AV inputs.

 

[Audio_ELF]

I see you don't live in the real world Steve...

 

The quest for quality can take many forms. And for the average person, even those interested in quality audio reproduction, a good AV receiver using it's internal DAC will make them very happy.

 

I think Chris has always welcomed members from every point on the spectrum of "Computer Audiophiles". For a few people that means $6000 DAC feeding a pair of monoblocks also with RRP of $6000. For most our means are more modest. A starting point of Apple Airport Express into a $150 DAC and on to a $200 amplifier is miles away from the stratospheric aims of your equipment, but will bring many people great joy.

 

If you're not willing to help people get the best out of such modest equipment then why bother posting in such threads? IMO your posts in this tread have been classic example of audio(phile) snobbery!

 

Eloise

 

[sensel]

Hey everyone, this was a great discussion.

I learned that audiophile - something I only dabbled in a number of years ago - has moved on to a stratosphere I no longer seem to be able to participate in. I'm fine with that. I have no desire to buy a Lamborghini Revention at the high end ($1.6 million) or a Porsche Carrera GT at the low end ($450,000).

But I would not mind a Tesla S sedan (or probably its future lower price competitors) someday. Practical and sweet to drive (hopefully). Zed to 60 MPH in 5.6 seconds. No tailpipe. But I bet the tires and door handles are crap compared to the Lamborghini or the Porsche.