SOTM, RENDU, AUDIO-LINUX, DIY, DOES IT REALLY MATTER??

[beerandmusic]

So many wagons to jump on, but i still haven't jumped....

 

Since I have been on this site, the First popular solution discussed was Windows connected to USB DAC.

Then it was USB toys

Then it was Rendu or SOTM (pick your flavor, i think SOTM is more popular and gets better reviews)

Then it was improvements to network

Now it appears a lot of people are jumping on the audio-linux bandwagon with many suggesting it is better than all the previous solutions.

This is great since you get the kernal distro for $30 and run on just about any x86 architecture.

 

I was ready to jump on the bandwagon for the first time, because I always thought IF i was wiling to invest $1K plus (for a streamer only) that i would invest in the SOTM, but I just wasn't willing to part with that much money for a "streamer" only box....it just didn't seem like it made sense.

 

Now a $30 distro on any x86 architecture that will beat the sotm, now we are talking my language.

 

But after researching more, there are many skeptics (myself included), in what can this stripped down distro offer over any other streamer?  (e.g. a blu-ray player that supports dlna and dsd, or any of many other solutions.  Some say that moode on a pi will sound better, and others will say Volumio is free. So before I jump on this bandwagon, i started trying to figure out what would make one streamer better than another.

 

Everyone agrees that all streamers get the bits to dac with 100% accuracy, that really the ONLY thing that can improve SQ (inre digital front ends) is minimizing jitter.

 

I have to first ask if it is true, that the only thing that is sent (in addition to a reference voltage) is music and jitter, and the music is proven or accepted as 100% accurate, then the only thing remaining is JITTER that all these millions of different solutions are really trying to improve on, right?  Or is there something else we are trying to resolve for besides jitter?

 

I have asked around, and it seems, as usual, depending on who you ask, there are many different opinions from the ultra-objective, to those that rely only on subjective input, and then everyone else is in between.  Regardless of any of that let's take on those that first suggest OMG, greatest ever MASSIVE IMPROVEMENT, would they even care if they were to measure jitter (remember the only thing that exists is music and jitter as far as the dac input is concerned) and there was no jitter regardless of which solution was used?  Or if the jitter was so low, that everyone agrees that any decent dac can more than compensate for picoseconds of jitter?

 

Many of those that consider themselves objective, will suggest buying any cheap streamer is fine any decent ($1K) dac will compensate for any jitter so don't even worry about this area.  I am kind of curious about SACD players of "yester-year" that people would pay big bucks for, how the jitter compares to a solution today?  And how a high-end SACD player compare SQ wise?  Were people as crazy about which SACD player had the lowest jitter like hobbyists today that jump on every bandwagon screaming OMG massive improvement every other day?

 

I, personally, am of the thinking, hell for $30 why not try it, especially since supposedly it kicks SOTM's ass and I thought i would like an SOTM if i could budget it....but now, knowing that it is only jitter that we are trying to compensate for, and I have a marantz streamer that states they specifically designed the box to compensate for jitter, and many objective opinions suggest jitter is a known entity and has been managed for years....is it even really worth the effort, if i typically lean more toward objective opinions.  Then there are all these people trying it, and want to know which is the best nuc to use it with...i mean, does it really matter??? seriously?   Will one make a difference in jitter at the dac input that the dac can't compensate for over another?  Really?

 

Maybe i will just wait and see what the next bandwagon will be, and skip this one also....after all, it's just subjective....might as well get wooden cable lifters?

 

At least i am glad i didnt jump on the SOTM wagon to find a $30 linux distro will beat it.

 

I really don't mind subjective opinions inre the dac and beyond, but my logic tells me that we should be able to be "objective" up to the dac's input before conversion.  We should be able to measure jitter at the dac input and clearly see if one solution is cleaner than another?    Or is there something else besides music and jitter before the dac input that is not measurable?

[beerandmusic]

3 hours ago, smodtactical said:

I am wondering the same thing. I have right now windows foobar wasapi -> Terminator -> HE9 and everyone says connecting direct usb into my dac from my pc is just not optimizing the potential of my dac. Something tells me they are right and I am willing to invest in a network streamer. But want to also get something with good value.

 

If these small stream boxes can bring me in the same ballpark as SOTM then I am hugely interested. 

 

when you really think about it, these streamers don't do anything musically.  All they are responsible for is to deliver the music "bits" to the dac to make the music, we just need something to deliver it with as little noise as possible.  This should not be rocket science and worth 1000s, so i very much doubt anything can beat a "audio-linux" distro, and frankly i believe that even a used blu-ray player can do the same job.  I think the real sell on these boxes is they are providing roon endpoints or better yet HQP interface...but you can do that with DLNA as well.  But for $30 you can't go wrong or even improve on it.  I think the pi solutions (e.g. moode and others) are 100% perfectly capable as well.  I also think a synology NAS  doing DLNA directly to dac is also a perfect solution. 

 

As far as streaming goes, that is really rudimentary, and i believe a lot of people make a lot about nothing with OMG massive improvement type posts....yea, maybe over direct connect to usb without toys, there may be a 5% improvement.

 

But, in the long run, if i was starting all over, i would likely go with one of these audio-linux $30 kernels on any x86 architecture....that is all a streamer is worth, and is likely the best solution for the money....of course if you are like JABBR, you can always make your own kernel for free....but if not, it would be hard to beat the audio-linux ($30) or volumio (FREE- if you could suffice with or prefer a web browser controller), especially if you already have x86 boxes laying around.....if you don't have x86 boxes laying aroudn and have to invest in hardware, a pi may be the right answer for you.  ME- i would go with audio-linux and HQP (i do believe software makes a difference where streamer does not).

[beerandmusic]

37 minutes ago, Norton said:

I think this is just your perception of “wagons to jump on” based on the latest threads, most of these solutions have actually been around and discussed on CA for some  time.

 

I thought though that the main advertised advantage of SOTM and Rendu  type devices was that they used custom audio-specific motherboards, power supplies, usb interfaces, clocks  etc, so if there is any merit in that, how could an off  the shelf consumer NUC better them simply by virtue of running  Audio Linux?

 

My personal bandwagon is replay from the built in SD card transport of my DAC - bests anything I’ve heard before.  There is also wtfplay  if you want a remarkable Linux based replay, albeit somewhat hairshirt.

 

 

Yes, i agree.....there have been wagons to jump on since inception of CA, my guess is starting with USB dacs over 10 years ago?

I think usb toys about 7 years ago or so?....so yes, i know there is a history here, i have been on/off the site for about 8 years now.

 

My impression inre the Rendu/SOTM (i believe rendu was first), was that it gained popularity because it offered a solution to use enet vs usb.  I was already using enet via a dlna bluray player at the time, and then via NT503.  The enet and roon interface is what made these gadgets popular imho.  With my computer background it just seemed like too much money for a stripped os and an enet interface, so i never bought in.  I knew you could already build your own comparable device for those knowledgeable.  What is making audio-linux poopular now (great idea), is that you can get same functionality on your own x86 architecture for next to nothing.  Someone took the time and are offering a great service....likely, with time, there will be open source audio linux available for free, but for $30 and some support this can't easily be passed up.  I think anyone would be crazy NOT to finally jump if they want streaming, and haven't built their own.

 

INRE your sdcard dac, i strongly believe that is a GREAT solution and I even suggested the design before there were any on market...but again, there is a big price tag to go with that.  many are poor audiophiles including myself that won't work.....if i had all the money in the world, i would likely go with such a solution, as my library is not that big, even though i have 100s of native dsd files, which take up lots of space, and probably a few thousand wav files...they should fit on largest Sd card?  SD cards keep getting bigger all the time too....and talk about quiet...it seems to make sense to me!  I am envious...ENJOY

[beerandmusic]

9 hours ago, PorkChop said:

I'm confident that a clear path to optimal playback will emerge soon enough.  These Audio Linux developments look quite promising - reading with interest.

 

To be honest, i believe as far as "digital" goes an optimal playback solution already exists.

 

I mean, i can't see it getting any better (inre digital front end) than quad dsd  by our own MISKA and a $30 optimized linux distro that will work on just about any x86 architecture you have laying around....

 

now D-A and speakers and amps, those can continue to improve....but digital front end...we are there now and CHEAPLY....about time!

 

FINALLY something worth writing about.

 

[beerandmusic]

^^^ PS, i think Audio-linux should come up with a more unique name to help survivability with "NAME RECOGNITION" before others steal his thunder....he could become rich....he also should start his own thread, separate from the maze.

[beerandmusic]

1 hour ago, DuckToller said:

BaM,
I have seen the last days, that reading, thinking and creating threads about audio-linux has withdrawn your energy from actually testing it with your own ears. If I remember correctly,  I've read that you have a lot of PC material in the closet. So just do it. Won't hurt and give you easily an audible impression on your own.

I have used Foobar2000, Clementine, JRiver 19-23, AO with WS2012R, Win10Pro and WS2016,  Volumio and a Kodi fork, and from my personal experience my old CAPS Zuma with an audiophile USB card by PPANG with Uptone Audio Regen and both DACs, the klein and the iFi iDSD BL, using JRIVER23, sound best. I have recently installed all three options for AO on the Zuma, after some listening, the WS2016, even not in Core mode,  sounds best to me. While reinstalling the ZUMA, I listened with the RPI3b/Volumio/ with and  w/out Hifiberry DAC+. With standard Windows 10, without AO, the Zuma sounded much better than the volumio (with and without Regen). Feed via internal SSD on linear power from HD Plex, or a DIY-NAS via netgear switch. IMHO, SSD sounds slightly better. But this is my impression, my system, my ears, not sure it will help you to make a decision.
At last, it is all about personal preference, and you can only find out with trial and error on your system. It is your system, your ears and the configuration you like most. It is always helpful to have more than one configuration avilable to make comparisons.
I'd like to send you some courage to start doing something other than opinion fishing and discussing topics without personal experience. Make yourself open to your own first(ear)hand experience and free yourself from depending on secondhand experiences. If you feel that you need to improve afterwards, you will still have a lot of choices.
Just for your curiosity: NAD pre/power amp  BEE 275/375 with B&W 805s & 2 x XTZ 10.17 subs
Cheers Tom

 

1 hour ago, DuckToller said:

BaM,
I have seen the last days, that reading, thinking and creating threads about audio-linux has withdrawn your energy from actually testing it with your own ears. If I remember correctly,  I've read that you have a lot of PC material in the closet. So just do it. Won't hurt and give you easily an audible impression on your own.

I have used Foobar2000, Clementine, JRiver 19-23, AO with WS2012R, Win10Pro and WS2016,  Volumio and a Kodi fork, and from my personal experience my old CAPS Zuma with an audiophile USB card by PPANG with Uptone Audio Regen and both DACs, the klein and the iFi iDSD BL, using JRIVER23, sound best. I have recently installed all three options for AO on the Zuma, after some listening, the WS2016, even not in Core mode,  sounds best to me. While reinstalling the ZUMA, I listened with the RPI3b/Volumio/ with and  w/out Hifiberry DAC+. With standard Windows 10, without AO, the Zuma sounded much better than the volumio (with and without Regen). Feed via internal SSD on linear power from HD Plex, or a DIY-NAS via netgear switch. IMHO, SSD sounds slightly better. But this is my impression, my system, my ears, not sure it will help you to make a decision.
At last, it is all about personal preference, and you can only find out with trial and error on your system. It is your system, your ears and the configuration you like most. It is always helpful to have more than one configuration avilable to make comparisons.
I'd like to send you some courage to start doing something other than opinion fishing and discussing topics without personal experience. Make yourself open to your own first(ear)hand experience and free yourself from depending on secondhand experiences. If you feel that you need to improve afterwards, you will still have a lot of choices.
Just for your curiosity: NAD pre/power amp  BEE 275/375 with B&W 805s & 2 x XTZ 10.17 subs
Cheers Tom

 

nice system...i like NAD and B&W 805's(smile).

 

Yes, i am going to give the audio-linux a "GO". 

 

[beerandmusic]

44 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

Okay, I’ve been thinking about jitter since the mid-nineties for VOIP (voice over internet protocol). We’ve been measuring it since then. Archimago talks about it regularly on his blog and doesn’t consider it much of an issue. See his Raspberry Pi articles they include jitter measurements. Personally, I’ve measured it in my audio systems and it is inaudible.

 

More streamer software that you would like is open source. You can get it yourself.

 

Quiet is easy and inexpensive to do. Gamers, the scientific community and studios need quiet PCs. Gamers make the availability of quiet parts easy to source. They have volume and competition to keep prices down.  Puget Systems has good overview of quiet for their Serenity Line.

 

I’ve written about using an original Sony PlayStation 1 as a CD and SACD drive. It worked well. You will occasionally see one still used as a SACD drive at shows.

 

Great, i am very happy you responded...I have "pretty much" the same beliefs, but am open to change of beliefs, and if you are willing to discuss, i would be extremely happy to chit-chat a bit.

 

I have read from Archimago and find very reliable and believable and have high trust iin him, so i will see what he does share inre jitter.

 

My main questions are these:

1.  If we are talking just about the digital front end, trying to get music bits to the dac with as little noise as possible, and if jitter isn't an issue, then why is there ANY difference at all whether you use an SOTM, Rendu, Audio-linux on x86, regardless of we use a celeron, i3, or i7?  or are you one of many other skeptics that believe there would be no difference?

2. Do you also believe then, that it doesn't make a difference at the resolution of the music even up to quad dsd in regards to jitter?

3. What about does it matter what power supply you use or if you use decrapifiers on the usb out or not?  I do believe that I read that Armichagelo doesn't believe the decrapifiers do anything, but possibly add more jitter (but maybe that was someone else that said that?).

4. What about other "normal" voltage noise?  Is there any noise that would cause degradation in the digital front end affecting the DACs output that is not jitter related?  (when i use "normal" voltage, i mean within mfr specs...not like a bad ps).

 

My personal opinion, CURRENTLY, and subject to change, is that jitter "may" effect SQ more than what many engineers believe, especially high speed dsd, but certainly not on the order of "OMG MASSIVE IMPROVEMENT".  I read a paper yesterday that suggested nanoseconds of jitter can impact harmonic distortion, and even Marantz suggests that jitter can afffect soundstage, so I am not 100% convinced that small amounts of different jitter "can" affect SQ, especially at quad dsd rates.

 

It would be nice if someone could point to a "whitepaper" that would suggest x amount of jitter cannot impact SQ, but anything above x amount can cause these issues....and then determine what is the minimal hardware/os spec that would be acceptable as to not affecting SQ and where to measure it. 

 

If you could answer all 4 questions as to your belief, share a white paper, or even just comment, i would be most appreciative....same to anyone else that would be brave enough to share the opinioin without fear of being jumped on....it clearly is a very debatable topic...religion is easier.

 

[beerandmusic]

1 hour ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

Norton, great point with the SD Card. The laptop I run my office music system has an SD slot. I played with it a little for music, but SD cards didn’t have the capacity I wanted back then. Now a 256 GB SD card might have real merit in a phone with a good DAC chip in it.

 

Not a phone, but nice portable unit....I am always looking at those, and curious how they would stand up to an external dac....

 

This looks nice == TWIN ES9018 DAC chips, 2 SD slots (up to 512gb) and supports DSD....really curious how it would sound plugged directly into an integrated mcintosh amp playing native DSD music off the sd card and battery ps.

 

https://www.onkyousa.com/Products/model.php?m=DP-X1A&class=Portable

[beerandmusic]

^^^ PS, in my thread, i don't care

3 hours ago, davide256 said:

Its worth trying. It can't make the hardware better  but it seems to eliminate some OS/software caused harmonic defects.

 

Agreed, the streamer can't make hardware better....digital front end just trying to get the music bits to the dac to do the real magic with as little noise as possible....there shouldn't be ANY "OMG MASSIVE IMPROVEMENTS" here, and this is one area that should be OBJECTIVE....i undersand DAC and everything past will always be subjective, but we need to get the digital front end to a point where it is clearly OBJECTIVE only.

[beerandmusic]

1 minute ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

I'll comment more but if you're around gamer's and PCs like I am they would have found these issues and would be commenting on them  because the soundstage  would be off.  If gamer's are currently talking about it they aren't around me. 

 

I'm not going to point you to a whitepaper because all they are is marketing documents. But I've tested a Schiit Modi and a basic office PC in my office and not measured detectable jitter. I don't do much with DSD so I can't comment. There is little music I like on DSD. 

you will find a lot of people on this site upsample everything to quad dsd...so in that essence, all music is available in dsd (wink).

Just out of curiosity, where/how do you measure jitter?  It was my understanding (perhaps wrong) that ALL have measurable jitter, it's just a question as to if it affects SQ or not...

[beerandmusic]

1 hour ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

I'll comment more but if you're around gamer's and PCs like I am they would have found these issues and would be commenting on them  because the soundstage  would be off.  If gamer's are currently talking about it they aren't around me. 

 

I'm not going to point you to a whitepaper because all they are is marketing documents. But I've tested a Schiit Modi and a basic office PC in my office and not measured detectable jitter. I don't do much with DSD so I can't comment. There is little music I like on DSD. 

 

I wanted to thank you again for reminding me about archimago....I just googled archimago and jitter and found this...

 

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2016/05/measurements-odroid-c2-with-volumio-2.html

 

Although he didn't mention DSD ...i would love to have an update from him, since that blog is 2 years old and he didn't mention DSD.

 

I also found it interesting to hear that he could not find any differences in any of his measurements whether using SMPS or LPS, or using fidelizer or not. 

 

My initial logic was that I didn't believe that the digital front end could make a difference, but with so many different people reporting OMG MASSIVE IIMPROVEMENTS, and even different stereo "reviewers' suggesting one streamer sounds different than another, I started to lean a little to the left....but now after reading above, i am leaning a little more to the right again (I have always been further leaning toward little to no difference, but I still do not discount that there is no possible differences, and don't know if quad dsd makes a difference or not). 

 

If I were to believe that there is no difference whatsoever, regardless of processor, ps, or tuned os, then i would have to believe that professional stereo reviewers flat-out lie (which i can actually believe that some do), how could one device sound better or even different (e.g. rendu vs sotm), and how could reviewers suggest differences they hear.....and what about all the people in the "OMG MASSIVE IMPROVEMENT" threads?  To be honest i have NEVER heard an OMG improvement besides speakers and amps....possibly subtle differences but never OMG improvements even amongst a dozen dacs....and not even able to say i prefered one dac over another for all types of music (e.g. i liiked schiit multibit with rock, but preferred native dsd dacs with jazz, but would never say omg massive improvement of one over another)

 

Back to topic, i tend to ramble....

Anyway, thanks for reminding me about archimago...would love him to comment, and happy to find above link.

 

 

 

[beerandmusic]

38 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Curious... I equate objectivists to "filibuster" and "white paper legal tactics"... the "objective" I see is to impede discovery using dogma. Actual discovery requires diligent experimentation and an open mind. The objectivist credo is  more religion than science.

 

I see that point, but i also see subjecttist as ignorant at times, and unable to apply logic and heavily biased after the purchase.

I am not going to point my needle at 100% in either direction.

 

I guess I would say that I would buy into a subjective opinion, if there is logic behind "as to why" that i could accept in "my logic".

 

Right now, my understanding is that if there is a difference, it must be jitter, but if two kit's have same or comparable jitter, then where is the logic that they can sound different, if all there is, is music and jitter in the digital front end.  For there to be ANY difference, there HAS to be something that is measurable that is different, that I am solid on.

[beerandmusic]

10 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

I measure jitter the same way Arch does. The question is can you detect low levels. I also lost interest in DSD when I found out 51% DSD and 49% PCM is still DSD from Cookie so why bother. And their are few editing tools.

 

You can detect low levels of jitter, the question is do low levels make a difference?  I have read white papers (not marketing), that suggest jitter can cause harmonic distortion and affect soundstage. 

 

I don't understand any of what you said inre DSD.  All the big software programs support upsampling, and tons of hardware too....hell even some AVR's are capable,  and Dolby jumped on the bandwagon too....and have for years.  I prefer native dsd to upsampled, and prefer software to hardware upsampling though...that or even convert offline and play natively.

[beerandmusic]

11 hours ago, davide256 said:

One of the reasons I stopped reading Audiogon was the other extreme, the "pointy hat" crowd.

Disagree on "measurable"... that means you have made the "assume" mistake, that you already know root cause. Anyone doing research better have a good chain of

root cause research before they claim they know how to measure.

 

Observable, repeatable, and verifiable comes first. In discovery you often have to build new measurement tools because the old ones don't apply.

 

i agree with "verifiable", not observation, because observations are frequently wrong and personal....i don't think you need human measurements to be verifiable, but would like to see at least repeatable 80%+ consensus to even consider verifiable....and i am not even talking consensus as to which is better, just a noted difference, and in a professional environment...not chit-chat.

[beerandmusic]

4 minutes ago, davide256 said:

An evaluation of audio gear not based on competent human evaluator is inherently flawed... our measurement tools can't predict observable differences

other than at the most basic level of audio performance.The difficulty is identifying the skill level of the human evaluator and their strengths and weaknesses.

I try to keep track of different reviewers, their strengths and biases. In general when I see 2 known good reviewers praising a piece of gear at the level

I'm interested in, it starts to get my attention, if 3 then it becomes a must to audition.

 

 

https://www.dailyaudiophile.com/

 

 

I don't trust reviewers.  They are paid and rarely will give a negative review (except for maybe big box that don't give incentives like boutique shops).  I have even spoken to retired reviewers that suggested they are "FREE AT LAST" to give honest opinions.  Besides reviewers like different things...

 

If there are not APPARENT improvements in a comparison test without needing a DBT, it probably isn't worth buying  imho.

 

If there are 2 or move positive professional reviews, there are likely incentives given to 2 or more reviewers.

 

I agree you have to start somewhere to make your short lists, but I don't feel it is necessary on digital front ends.  I would start with reviews that know and understand measurements and use them in their reviews and aren't paid or incentivized by mfr...problem is even if they are, they will try to hide it.  They all have relationships in one way or another.

[beerandmusic]

7 minutes ago, davide256 said:

useful reviewers compare and contrast to other gear, constrained reviewers don't. We all have relationships... only a minority are dishonest.

 

I wouldn't use the word dishonest, i would say they are "VERY CAREFUL WITH THEIR CHOSEN WORDS"....not talking about in detail but as to serve their purpose....to continue to be employed.  They also won't compare negatively to any kit they have a current relationship with.

 

[beerandmusic]

3 minutes ago, davide256 said:

BTW, I pulled ISO Regen out of the chain last night, normally its the sort of change where I wince and put it back in. Trying to sort out +/- now,  amazed the Audiolinux on a generic PC server makes such a difference even without running in RAM. Getting a NUC so I can run server in RAM is my next goal.

 

can you clarify these statements?

1. are you saying you don't hear much of change without the ISO regen since you switched to AL?

2.  What generic pc are you using?  I am going to try AL on an asus vivo vm60....i am not sure that there should be any differnce what soever based on your pc hardware?

[beerandmusic]

3 hours ago, smodtactical said:

 

Seems like your chain is already super optimized so ISO regen with lps just couldn't squeeze out any more SQ.

 

Did you notice a gain in quality with microrendu and your AL server vs just using usb into a dac ?

 

huh?  i thought the purpose of AL is to replace rendu or sotm?

[beerandmusic]

7 hours ago, Abtr said:

Stated simple, I think the main problem is electrical noise from the computer/streamer making its way to the DAC (or DDC), thus introducing jitter in the conversion stage. USB is particularly liable to this. With USB an electrically quieter source will generally sound better. Both computer/streamer hardware and software/OS can make a difference in this respect.  

if i didn't totally misunderstand Miska's response, for many/most dacs they can deal with the jitter and clocking noise...i am thinking a fiber -> fiber interface (eliminating usb all together) may be a better solution than what we have now.

[beerandmusic]

4 hours ago, Abtr said:

Jitter is no problem with asynchronous USB. What is "clocking noise"? I don't know what response from Miska you refer to, but I'm talking about electrical noise (not jitter) from the PC, originating from the power supply, hard disk operation, fan and general digital processing, making its way to the DAC and interfering with the DA conversion. There are literally thousands of posts about this problem and solutions on this site and other audio sites. Eliminating USB altogether may be an option but then you can't play e.g. DSD.
 

you can do dsd over enet, been doing it for 8 years....or you can use jabbrs solution of clearfog base.

i really think ether fiber is best way to go from what i have read.

[beerandmusic]

38 minutes ago, Lebouwsky said:

 

Yes computer audio evolves, just like computers do. My first computer was an MSX, playing Konami sport games.

 

Right now I’m enyoing my last years hot config sotm clock/ usb card based server. 

There are better streamers out now but I don’t mind, I’m proud of what I’ve build with my own hands. And boy does it sound better than my previous Sotm sms200 2016 hot config.

 

What a great hobby we’re in, which you’ll probably never jump on to. What’s your motivation anyway to be so active on this forum? It feels quite lonely to me.

wow, you built an sotm with your own hands....impressive...

I am sure i have tried a ton more hardware than you have....i haven't jumped on many usb solutions is what I was saying...I am here to "try" and stay on top of what is worth buying (what is objective) within my budget....looks like fiber will be my next investment.

[beerandmusic]

42 minutes ago, Lebouwsky said:

Please share your experience, looking forward to it, no sarcasm.

I jumped on the DSD bandwagon in it's infancy.  I found soon afterwards that native dsd sounds best streamed over enet.  Could have been i just had a noisy pc, but i found that using a cheap used bluray player as a dlna endpoint sounded better than most dacs via USB inre native dsd.  (that was 7-8 years ago before people even talked about noise on usb bus) I have tried about 10 DACs/network players, about 100 speakers, and about 20 amps over a few year period.  I go to local shows and events... I found that I heard a much larger improvement going from an $800 amp to a $3K amp (used), than i did trying all the different dacs.  I guess I didn't experience all the issues with reported usb  and usb toys because i jumped on enet within a month or two of first playing with DSD...so I avoided that all together.

I am used to being an outcast...since when i started here 8 years ago, i swore by DSD and ENET and just about everyone told me neither would survive.  I even said that i was williing to wager that AVRs would support ENET and DSD back then when i was laughed off this board.  I also have been predicting network players will be the common device to replace the cd players of yesteryear before there were even any on the market.  I retired at 55 years old, so I am on a very fixed budget, so I am very frugal with my money (but i do enjoy san diego weather for free), and with my technical background in computers (retired as a server blade and vmware engineer), I lean a little more toward objective views.  I do have ADD, so i admit i am "scatter-brained", but I also am very smart, so i don't really care when people challenge my intelligence.  I don't have any audio engineering, and very little electronics background, besides reading this forum, which is why i enjoy this site...there is a wealth of knowlege here, if you learn who to listen to....I have a lot of respect for Jabbr and Miska....(marce and mansr minus the sarcasm), and superdad and barrows (minus their company bias).  There is a lot of knowledge here among many others, but those are the ones i trust and listen to more than others.

 

I think the altair (ultra low noise clocks, enet port, lps and audio out) is a hard deal to beat, and hope to see a million similar devices on the market.

 

A lot of the stuff going on this site, i feel are band-aids...

 

I usually am very active in "spurts"....i see whats up, bouncing around different threads, and then i take a break....I almost missed about the Audio-linux because it was hidden in the "massive improvement maze thread", so i had to create a few threads so i can revisit later. 

 

I recommend audio-linux too....i don't invest in much (hqplayer, and now audio-inux, and likely fiber soon)....but i do feel i squeeze what i need out of this site.

 

[beerandmusic]

24 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

As I meet more reviewers face to face I'm finding myself relying on them less and less.  

 

+1 agreed...i go to local meetings and have met up with many professional reviewers (even some well known ones i won't mention).  It is evident that there are rarely "massive improvements" in most kits (esp at same price point), and that they have difficult time "choosing their words" in written reviews, and much more difficulty in person when pinned down.  One retired reviewer even admitted to an entire group that he has to be honest, that he is much happier now, where he can freely say what he thinks without concern for vendor relationships.

[beerandmusic]

interesting listen:

https://darko.audio/2018/11/why-isnt-digital-audio-just-ones-and-zeroes/

 

Lots of interesting points, but to me, the most interesting point is that even those at the "top of the game" don't understand why...and you can even hear doubt in his own assessments.