Considering Multichannel Audio System Options

[Fitzcaraldo215]

On August 20, 2018 at 8:57 PM, Evo-No-Revo said:

Yes, I do DSD native via ripped files.  I have a few SACD discs.  I also will play with some upsampling via Roon and HQP.  I am not insistent on DSD512 though.

 

I won't be stacking DACs as I am interested in more elegant solutions if you know what I mean...too much spaghetti.

 

Parasound P7...no XLR input.  That pulls that off the table.    I didn't think about that at this point.  That was sort of the point of this thread to sort out my possibilities....and blind spots.

 

The Audio Research MP1 looks very interesting!  I could add a Chord DAC and an e38 DAC and get the e38 with the RCA outs. 

 

You likely have seen my post in response to your parallel Thread at JRiver Forum:

 

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,117121.msg810340.html#msg810340

 

Just a few additions to that:

 

I would have upgraded from an Exasound E28 to an E38 by now if it had a balanced output option.  But, based on Kal's excellent reviews, I doubt I am paying much of a  sonic penalty.  I probably would have upgraded just on general principles and assuming a slight sonic improvement on comparative audition.  I am sure George Klissarov has his valid reasons, but, in chatting with him,  likely we will never see a balanced output E38.  Maybe next time. However, I firmly believe I need balanced because of long cable runs.  Otherwise, for just short runs, I would go unbalanced, much as I prefer XLR connectors, even with miniXLR snake cable adapters.

 

I have had some very fine and costly systems in my life, but this current HTPC/JRiver/Dirac/Exasound setup is easily and by far the best sounding for my heavily classical music listening primarily in Mch.  The > 5 year old Win7 Pro 64 and I7 PC is very unexotic and aging now, but still way more than adequate.  I seriously doubt replacing/enhancing/tweaking the PC would do anything at all sonically.  Cables, as I have learned with care and some weeding out, need not be exotic or costly, contrary to my previous irrational, audiophile tendencies.  Addon gizmos, exotic neworking, etc.may have their devout fans and tons of anecdotes, but no provable sonic advantage, as I also learned from experience.

 

There are some inconveniences vs. a prepro and player configuration, and software sometimes got a little flaky, but I find JRiver, Dirac via VST and Exasound's driver quite stable these days. Avoiding Win 10 for now might have helped keep me out of trouble.   I am not messing with the Dirac 2.0 Beta for awhile.  With software, keep it simple, which is also a very good idea with hardware..

 

I had way back experimented with my older, very fine and great sounding Levinson stereo line stage in unity gain, HT Bypass mode for the front channels out of my old Integra prepro.  It introduced a noticeable reduction in transparency, which was even slightly worse when the Levinson's very sophisticated volume control was in circuit.  So, I firmly believe there is no avoiding that the fewer components in an analog signal path, the better.  I sold the Levinson for good money with no regrets.  A key appeal of the Exasound to me was the digital volume control and direct connection to my amps. 

 

So, I, for one, have never been happier and more satisfied as an audiophile and music lover.  Music, movies and TV all are beyond my wildest dreams of even 10 years ago In terms of audible and visual performance.  My wife or a stranger can't operate it, but they could in under 5 minutes if they had the patience to learn how from me via keyboard, mouse and iPad.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

9 minutes ago, Evo-No-Revo said:

I agree that is disturbing when I hear it.  Knowing the upgrade significantly drops the noise floor is comforting.  I certainly like the aspect of used equipment but not many situation to audition something.  After we get settled a bit into our new house and get it dialed in for the space, I might get a demo of the Parasound to see how it compares.  The Parasound Halo P7 is still being produced so demo can work.  But that is not really on my radar. 

 

The buyer I am buying the AR MP-1 from needed more inputs and replaced the MP-1 with the EMM Labs Switchman 3.  One is actually for sale on Superphonica.  I  know where a different Swithman 3 is and I could try it out on demo but I think I can deal with a tiny bit of background  noise and get to look at the front panel of the MP-1.  I love the giant display of the volume.  Switchman 3 is nowhere near as appealing visually.

https://www.emmlabs.com/images/legacy/Manuals/SWM3_Manual3v5.pdf

 

 

 

Ha, I haven't even checked back in on my thread. 

 

exaSound hasn't not responded to my question on this forum about the stated, by exaSound option of XLR outs.  I sent an email and have not heard back in almost a week.  I can't find a phone number either.  I don't know that I would be that interested in the option anymore because the increase in price for the upgrade will put you in used NADAC MC8 territory.

 

I am going slow into the multichannel music setup.  If I feel like I want to simplify away from the 5.1 music then I am not that committed to multichannel just for movies.  Hell, I could probably be good removing all the multichannel complex, go back to 2 channel and add something like the MartinLogan Soundbar...or some other company.  I feel pretty meh about putting much effort into the 5.1 movie experience.  The movie content options in movies all feels like the product of a dying and diseased Hollywood mindf&%# machine.  I was very involved in multichannel sales and installs back in the early 90's, it just doesn't ring my bell like I thought it would when I recently went back with the Lyngdorf M-50 pre/pro.

 

 

For Mch music, the issue is your genre preference.  If it is heavy for classical, like mine, then there is an abundance of discretely recorded Mch albums that demonstrate any day of the week that hirez Mch is about as good as reproduction can possibly get today.  Stereo, even in hirez, is a very distant second to me.  I have thousands on my NAS, as does Kal, and I seldom listen in stereo, and never in upmixed Mch.  Ergo, my HTPC is primarily above all else a Mch music playback system.

 

But, with other genres, like rock, jazz, etc., it might be hard for even me to see the sustainable advantage of Mch for music.  The Mch releases are just not there.

 

However, even stereo playback as 2.1 using Dirac, a sub, etc. is substantially better now in my system than ever before.  I sold off many stereo-only components at good prices upon realizing this.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

13 hours ago, SrMead said:

 

Hello Fitz,

 

I share your appreciation for well recorded MCH classical music, and I'm trying to rebuild my system to do it justice. The HTPC/JRiver/Dirac/Exasound setup you mention above is remarkably similar to what I'm exploring.   May I ask what your philosophy is regarding speakers for the center and rear channels?  Do you use speakers intended for home theater or do you choose differently?   How about the subwoofer?

 

Thanks in advance for your insights!

 

Kal’s advice is excellent, as always, of course.

 

I chose speakers all from the same manufacturer, Martin Logan, with electrostat hybrids all around - 3 different size stereo pairs plus a horizontal center for 7.1.  I listened to them all individually prior to final setup in stereo or mono vs. the large front pair I already had.  There was very little noticeable difference except in the deep, bass, which is offloaded to a single JL Audio f113 sub via bass management anyway.  I highly recommend a sub or subs no matter how large the main speakers are.  

 

The design of MLs is consistent except for scaled/up down panel and woofer sizes. Hence, there is good reason to expect them to sound alike, except for bass extension.  The center is somewhat different, but still uses a shorter ‘stat panel for the mids plus a dome tweeter and 2 woofers.  It sounded near identical to the others, except for the bass.  I am quite pleased with the seamlessness of sonic integration across the front and all around. 

 

My my center is also above my 70” TV, pointed down toward my ears via laser aiming.    I hear no geometric or height distortion across the front soundstage.  For example, the choral group Stile Antico appear arrayed in a perfect horizontal line across the soundstage, just as they are live.  In listening to friends’ 3 identical front Mch setups, I honestly hear no distinct advantage over mine.

 

Dirac Live or similar EQ also voices all speaker channels near-identically, in addition to correcting for many room effects.  Highly recommended. Absolutely indispensable, actually.

 

I use exact ITU 5.0/1 speaker angular alignment: 0, +-30 and +-110 degrees.  (My back speakers are at +-150.) With minor exceptions, I believe that is what most all Mch music recordings use, as confirmed by some engineering sources.  It is also totally compliant with the angular ranges specified by DTS and Dolby for 5.1 on video.  Video sound in my system is also quite excellent.

 

I do not recommend 7.1, especially not for music.  Even on BD, there are relatively few releases supporting it, and, of course, no SACDs.  And, discrete 7.1 adds very little over a mixdown to 5.1 or discrete 5.1.  By hindsight, it was a poor investment on my part that gets little use.

 

Having experimented extensively, I also no longer use any stereo to Mch upmixing.  It falls considerably short of discrete Mch.  I am fine listening to stereo as 2.1, which I do only occasionally.

 

So, have fun and enjoy.  Discretely recorded, hirez Mch is easily the best reproduction yet in terms of creating a replica of live concert music.  I have not heard a stereo system at any price, even many hundreds of $thousands, that comes nearly as close.  Will Immersive 3D be better still?  I will wait that one out, thanks, until there is a viable pipeline of discretely recorded music in that format.

 

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

57 minutes ago, SrMead said:

Thank you both Kal and Fitz for your insightful comments!  Lots to digest/consider.  

 

Fitz, you say that you listen to stereo only occasionally - where do you source your MCH music?  I do have a decent SACD collection but redbook dwarves it by several orders of magnitude!  Which is why I still want to ensure to build a great stereo system...

 

 

 

My Mch collection is mostly ripped from SACDs, though increasingly labels are turning to downloads for Mch with corresponding disc releases only on CD. There are other downloads in PCM and DSD and the rest are ripped from BD-A or BD-V.  Most all are imported and tagged in my JRiver library on my NAS, though the BDs are more troublesome.

 

Obviously, ripped CDs could also be in my library, but I have not bought a CD in over a decade since being smitten by Mch. I have no desire at this point to rip and tag my thousands of CDs.  The sound does not justify it.  Combined, there are over 5,000 discs, mostly classical Mch.  This site has been my bible:

 

Www.HRAudio.net 

 

Most of my SACDs were easily obtained from Amazon or their other listed retailers, sometimes in the UK.  I have way more than enough music in Mch to satisfy me.  I have not even listenened to it all yet.  And, my interest is in the music with the best sound and replica of live, much less in specific “definitive” performances as determined by the critics.  As I learned from live concerts, each performance has something unique to say musically, even if it defies previous convention, fashion or critical acclaim.  But, so many excellent, very satisfying performances abound in Mch.  And, most esoteric labels committed to Mch have superlative engineering, which the big, major stereo labels often cannot match, even stereo vs. stereo.

 

There is absolutely no reason a great stereo and a great Mch system cannot share the main L-R channels in the same listening space.  Past experience has shown me that PC/JRiver/Dirac/Exasound with properly integrated sub, even in just stereo, would be very hard and extremely expensive to improve on with a costly super duper hi end stereo.  It is difficult to properly incorporate Dirac Live into stereos, and that elevates system sound in really big ways.  It is a giant killer.   Been there, done that myself, and I have also heard quite a few other really esteeme hi end rigs.  

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

23 minutes ago, SrMead said:

 

Fitz, I have another question for you.   In your experience, do these sources provide a dedicated subwoofer channel?  I have a handful of multichannel SACDs that are 5.0, so it seems to me that these assume either that you'll listen with full-range speakers/no SW, or that your system will do its own bass management.   I have to rip more of my multichannel SACDs and see what's really in there, as I've noticed that the back of the case usually doesn't say - it could be 4.0, 5.0, 5.1....

 

Do you prefer to listen to sources exactly as originally designed, or do you do bass management to have SW output in all cases?

 

Yes, some Mch SACDs are 5.0, some are 5.1.  There is no rhyme, reason or consistency.  5.1 is really not necessary for music, but many exist nonetheless.  The metadata on the disc itself identifies 5 or 6 channels of audio.

 

Incidentally, some Mch SACDs from remaster are actually 3.0 or 4.0, but they are in a 5.0 container with the unused channels having zero signal.  So, no problem.

 

I listen to all sources, including stereo, using bass management with my sub via JRiver.  That automatically handles the 5.0/5.1 issue, and it provides better sound even in stereo.  In JRiver, though, one must avoid the Source Number of Channels output parameter setting in favor of the 5.1 output setting.  The other setting screws up channel assignments between 5.0 and 5.1.

 

Aside from occasional testing, I seldom listen in pure DSD.  I most always convert on-the-fly from my DSF files to 176k PCM in order to use DSP features like Dirac, bass management and speaker distance correction.  In my system, that sounds superior overall to pure DSD, though not in all ways.

 

 

 

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

16 minutes ago, SrMead said:

 

You said before that JRiver goes into your Exasound.  How is that connection done?  I'm assuming that JRiver performs the bass management and outputs a 5.1 signal into the DAC?  I'm not too familiar with this area of functionality in JRiver.

 

Do you have a pre-amp after the DAC, or do you go straight into your power amp?

 

Thanks for all your input.   You're really helping me a lot in my planning.

 

The Exasound E28 is connected to the PC via USB.  No exotic cables are of benefit, in my opinion.  That is the only way to get Mch to the Exasound.

 

The E28 is connected directly to my amps and sub.  I have the XLR version of the E28.

 

I use the digital master volume control in the E28, synchronized with JRiver volume.

 

Yes, JRiver performs the bass management.  There is a Wiki page on that.  Dirac Live then EQs the bass managed sub channel prior to the DAC.  

 

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

14 hours ago, SrMead said:

Fitz and Kal - bouncing off of you another idea.  I'm thinking about amplification.  Would you drive all channels with the same multichannel power amp, or would you separate out the channels?  Maybe prioritize the fronts with their own stereo power amp and the rest with a multi-channel amp? 

 

How important is the center channel?  OK to group it with the surrounds?

 

What amp brands do you suggest?  My current amp is a Rotel and I like it, but I'm curious to see what else is out there

 

Looking fwd to your thoughts, thanks!

 

For amps, I have 3 stereo amps plus a monoblock for 7.1:  a Spectron Class D, 2x Parasound A23s and a Bryson Powerpac 120.  I believe in short speaker wires, hence long interconnects, ergo my Exasound E28 has balanced XLR outs.  I have 10-meter interconnect runs to my surround and back channels.

 

Incidentally, I have not done an E28>E38 upgrade because I am a bit worried about those long interconnect runs, and there is no balanced E38.

 

Also, those Parasound amps are terrific, especially for the price.  And, they make bigger models in 2/3/5 channel configurations.  But, there are other brands that are good, too.  I have no direct experience with Rotel, but I hear nothing negative about them.

 

If I were you, I would probably get a 3-channel amp for up front and use the Rotel for the surrounds in 5.1.  

 

The center channel is important for both music and video.  It may seem subtle, because it does not define the soundstage spatial boundaries like the main fronts.  But, it fills in the center of the soundstage, providing more coherence, detail and depth, and it anchors the frontal image.  It also delivers much better dialog articulation on video. 

 

And, while my dream system would have 3 identical speakers across the front, as Kal suggests, I am not at all unhappy with my horizontal center speaker, a Martin Logan which matches my other ML speakers quite well, especially after Dirac calibration.

 

 

 

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

You are quite welcome.  Kal and I and others are still here if you need us.

 

Having wandered about in the audio wilderness for decades and hearing  exaggerated promises about this or that stereo system or upgrade sounding “just like live music”, hirez discrete Mch was the first time I was truly happy with comparisons to my live concert experience.  I have been at it for 11 years with no regrets whatsoever.  No multi, multi kilobuck stereo, and I have heard quite a few, is as good as this.  Mch is easily the biggest and most satisfying audio discovery of my lifetime.

 

Good luck and happy listening.