Cybershaft platinum clock + Mutec MC3+USB : wow!

[zephyr24069]

Check out the newly announced Cybershaft Platimum (single output 50-ohn or 75-ohm);

 

http://www.cybershaft.jp/a-products/ultimate1.html

 

or Cybershaft Limited2 (3 output 50-ohm or 75-ohm, selectable for each!);

 

http://www.cybershaft.jp/a-products/limited2.html

 

Can be ordered in levels OP14 up to OP20 (the higher levels are likely to be rare so best order soon!).

 

Kenji's been VERY busy and the phase noise and jitter specs on the higher end units are off the charts!

[zephyr24069]

On 10/11/2018 at 1:18 AM, ThenewGearPPK said:

 

Where can one order a Cybershaft? On their webpage, it is all in Japanese & I didn't see an option to add to cart anywhere.

 

 

On the left side of the page, you will find a link to inquire and order for overseas customers outside of Japan;

 

http://www.cybershaft.jp/overseas01.html

 

[zephyr24069]

On 10/11/2018 at 1:18 AM, ThenewGearPPK said:

 

Where can one order a Cybershaft? On their webpage, it is all in Japanese & I didn't see an option to add to cart anywhere.

 

 

On the left side of the page, you will find a link to inquire and order for overseas customers outside of Japan;

 

http://www.cybershaft.jp/overseas01.html

 

[zephyr24069]

50 minutes ago, LowMidHigh said:

Well, since we’re on the subject, let me share what I picked up from Kenji regarding the Ultimate / Limited with many detailed and nagging questions. 
 

(A)
The new models perform equivalently to the discontinued models + 1. That is:
Ultimate OP13 = discontinued OP14

Ultimate OP14 = Premium OP15

And so on. 
 

(B) 

According their measuring instruments, the clock’s performance plateaued at 14/15 when locked to MC3+USB. So on paper anything higher is a waste. Still, their AB/X suggest audible improvements when going beyond 15, albeit marginally so. 

I don't know if the AB/X was performed properly and if the sample is statistically unbiased. YMMV

(C)

To their ears, the new OP15 sounds very close to REF10, and the OP16 exceeds it. Again, they stress those are their opinions. 

As always, be wary of placebo and bias confirmation. 

(D)

According to Kenji, despite being based on reclaimed chips, their clocks have been flawlessly operating for over a decade. In general, failure rate is infinitesimally low.

(E)

OCOX are sensitive to vibrations. 

If your clock is by a turn table or affected by low frequencies, you should contemplate making some changes. Yes, subwoofers in the vicinity will degrade the performance as well. 

The Cybershaft support feet can be replaced with 4mm spikes, but I’d advise against it: studies show spikes actually magnify vibrations. Rubber bumpers should be more suitable.  

(F)
Preferably, the word clock cable shouldn't exceed 2 meters, but they tested a 6-meter implementation, and the signal showed no degradation. 

_______________________________________________________________________

OP15 sounded enticing—over a grand saving over REF10—but ultimately, I went the Mutec route. The reason? Cybershaft has no return policy. I tried to convince Kenji to accept a re-stocking fee, but he politely declined, which was more the reason to make me leery. I’d never pony up $2,200 on “cat-in-a-bag” gear, and more so if the manufacturer doesn’t have full confidence in their product’s performance. 

I should mention that I did run into a few contradictions in his replies. Perhaps things got “lost in translation” so I gave him the benefit of the doubt.  

Lastly, if you intend to get either the Limited or purchase the clock distributor, the small difference in price points between Cybershaft and REF10 points in the direction of the latter.

 

LowMidHigh: Thank you for the reminder on the Clock Distributor newly announced today.  I cannot edit my original post any longer so I'll amend it here....

 

 

Newly announced Cybershaft Platimum (single output 50-ohn or 75-ohm);
 
http://www.cybershaft.jp/a-products/ultimate1.html
 
or Cybershaft Limited2 (3 output 50-ohm or 75-ohm, selectable for each!);
 
http://www.cybershaft.jp/a-products/limited2.html
 
Can be ordered in levels OP14 up to OP20 (the higher levels are likely to be rare so best order soon!).
 
Kenji's been VERY busy and the phase noise and jitter specs on the higher end units are off the charts!

Brand new today (19-November-2018)

 

New announced (today) audiophile-grade Clock Distributor (up to 3 outputs);

http://www.cybershaft.jp/a-products/clockdist01.html

 

Thanks for reporting your feedback and conversations regarding the earlier generation units. I'm very glad you found the REF10

to be a perfect match for your existing gear.

 

A few thoughts based upon your post;

 

- footers: I've found putting my Cybershaft clock up on Stillpoint UltraSS footers with Bases is a very good and cost-effective

solution that delivers aurally evident improvement to isolating this clock (or any other). I would imagine that EdenSound's Terracones would also be a great solution....

 

- "Used OCXO units...": agree that Cybershaft's higher end modules (including the OP21 unit I have today) are curated and deeply tested used and proven units.  When i first heard of this as I ordered several clocks to test and to eventually own, I was skeptical being the good audio-nut that I am ? and wanting 'brand new'.  Kenji explained the benefits of finding such proven units and rigorously testing them versus buy supposedly perfect new units and hoping they will stabilize and be rock solid; I was sold on this after several iterations.  Just like anything else in high precision manufacturing, every unit coming off the line is not perfect and some are much better than others over time.  For a component like an OCXO module (or Rb for that matter) I'd rather (now) have a used unit that is validated, proven and certified than a new unit where i hope all is well...

 

- Inconsistent answers: to the extent that my experience matters, I can promise you based upon that experience alone that the inconsistencies are due to language barrier.  He's been extremely reliable in my dealings with him over 2+ years and always delivers what he says he will; the finer details of the communications and the fact that he's learning English these last 2 years including I believe taking classes as of late to improve his communications take a bit of getting used to but I trust him completely for which the proof has been in actions, not in words...

 

- Testing Reliability: Again, only from my experience, diving deep into the test results, I have found them to be squared away and objective scientific measurements.  It may help that Kenji uses the following facility for all his testing;

 

http://www.cybershaft.jp/cyberqc01.html

 

http://www.cybershaft.jp/clockcal.html

 

- Levels above OP14,....I have heard that OP14/15 is sufficient and there is no audible difference for many users who also find REF10 to deliver equal or superior performance.  For my own testing with OP's below 14, OP14, OP17, OP18, OP20 and OP21 (my unit and I owned 2 others of less precision/higher phase noise along the way from Cybershaft plus an Esoteric G-0s and G-03X), I found that not all levels above OP12, 13 and 14 delivered any benefit and in 2 cases detracted from the sound using an Esoteric P-02 and D-02 as my test rack for music listening.  I found the following to be superior in sound and noticeably better at each step (OP14, OP17, OP20 and OP21 with my preference falling for the OP14, OP17 and top of the heap, the OP21 I happen to have). This included the Rb and  OCXO models from Esoteric which weighed in with much higher phase noise and lower long-term as well as short-term precision (at least to my reading of the test results including Allen Variance & Deviation).  Listening testing was done non-blind so there is possibility of placebo effect, owner bias, etc...however I did own and OP12, and OP14, OP17 and lastly the OP21 so I would say owner bias if not totally removed was limited in all fairness.

 

- No return policy: I think this may have to do ( a pure guess) that he is small vendor and has limited markup; he cannot sustain the try, try, try and maybe buy that many audiophiles sometimes do.  As far as faith in what he does, he does share a full test and certification report battery report with the buyer (did so with me 4 times) BEFORE he ships giving the buyer the right to walk away from the transaction so to me, that is another sort of faith in one's product as he builds them all from scratch at time of order so he's taking the chance that he could build something out of his own pocket that the buyer walks away from before trying.  Sounds like a very similar arrangement just without the ship, wait, return shipment, possibility of damage expense and time....

 

- For me,...I've tried 2 Esoteric clocks (owned, Rb and OCXO) and demo'ed (2, G-01 and and G1) all weighing in at much higher prices; for me, for my Esoteric stack, I simply love the sounds and musicality that comes out when it's all driven by a Cybershaft clock...

 

Very glad you have good luck with the REF10; I've now heard as of a couple months ago at a friend's place and agree that it is one hell of a great unit!

 

Mark

[zephyr24069]

BTW (to all): The web form is not always to best to get in touch with Cybershaft if you have questions.  I don't work with them and not industry-affiliated in any way so I've had the same issue.

 

You may wish to try emailing at [email protected]; has always worked well for me and 2 other guys I know that regularly chat with Kenji via email.

[zephyr24069]

On 11/19/2018 at 10:47 PM, LowMidHigh said:

 

Good Morning LowMidHigh, apologies for the delayed reply (work and life intervened!) and more importantly thank you for the EXCELLENT discussion!!!

 

I did not think I avoided any of your topics and in the one specific item you pointed out, I thought i gave an alternative that Cybershaft was able to provide however I'll try to be more clear this time around.

 

Here goes...

 

You mount a vigorous defense of Cybershaft, Mark…The passion is appreciated. And thank you for sharing all that edifying information.

 

from me: You are welcome...I love music listening and anything that gets me to hear more realistic and nearer to the source renditions of what' son my shelf.  I do get passionate about that as home audio owner and music-nut (sometimes too much so) however what I also get passionate about are the firms, designers, cables and gear that helps me get there.  I've spent ALOT on digital front ends of varying make-ups over time for HT+2ch and then 2-ch only with even more spent on clocking.  After hearing and believing a lot of marketing hype (PPB is better than PPM and falling for the Rubidium and Cesium games, knowing nothing else about clocking for years) it did me well to read more deeply talk to various clock vendors, etc...about 3-4 years ago which ultimately led me to Cybershaft.  The price at which they deliver better music to my system makes me very happy over and above the musical experience.  That stated the REF10 appears to be in the same quality/reasonable price band.  It seems clear to me that if I had not found Cybershaft I would most probably be running a REF10 by now...

 

Still, there’re a few points I’d like to raise.

 

You completely ignored my re-stocking fee offer to Kenji. I understand he might loathe to be the victim of whimsical audiophiles, but said fee would separate the wheat from the chaff and compensate Kenji for any trouble; really an insurance policy to keep both sides satisfied.  

 

from me: I was not attempting to ignore your point, only to state the probable reason very small vendor, direct sales model, etc...that he could not do this and present his alternative qualitative stance...I do see your point and I think it worth an email or 2 to him to suggest it again.

 

You make this point:

“As far as faith in what he does, he does share a full test and certification report battery report with the buyer (did so with me 4 times) BEFORE he ships giving the buyer the right to walk away from the transaction’”

 

That wasn’t the case with me. He was going to have my paypal the fund 8 days before the unit was ready for shipping. There was no claw-back.

 

from me: Strange as I did have this offer from him even on my first purchase and he seemed prepared to back it up though with what I saw in the test reports from clock 1 purchase onward, I never requested this.  He may have changed his policy in the last 1 year or so

 

You make this point:

“Used OCXO units...": agree that Cybershaft's higher end modules (including the OP21 unit I have today) are curated and deeply tested used and proven units.  When i first heard of this as I ordered several clocks to test and to eventually own, I was skeptical being the good audio-nut that I am ? and wanting 'brand new'.  Kenji explained the benefits of finding such proven units and rigorously testing them versus buy supposedly perfect new units and hoping they will stabilize and be rock solid; I was sold on this after several iterations.  Just like anything else in high precision manufacturing, every unit coming off the line is not perfect and some are much better than others over time.  For a component like an OCXO module (or Rb for that matter) I'd rather (now) have a used unit that is validated, proven and certified than a new unit where i hope all is well...”

 

It's very interesting logic, even convincing, but going by it, we should all inspire to purchase used and “well-tested” products, especially high-precision ones. I guess most humanity disagrees. Julian would certainly beg to differ, given Mutec has opted for a new OCXO, supposedly having given it careful consideration. Personally, I don’t care either way. I could test drive the Mutec for a full refund and that was swaying enough.

 

from me:  I'm with you...While I do have a used Esoteric P-02 and D-02 that I bought, they were demos from a dealer; still used but with certain advantages (broken in, price, remaining warranty). Normally I would take your side and all my other gear purchases and cables have been brand new for 30 years as an FYI.  HOWEVER, with clock modules there is (to my non-expert understanding) Variance and Deviation, also 'Drift" that can occur in a flawed quartz oscillator cut and/or OCXO assembly over the initial time from burn in through first months of 24x7x365 usage that take time to manifest.  This is the only area in which I would say it's better to have something proven to stand the test of time (pun intended!), accuracy and low phase noise that is used versus taking many weeks or even months to find out you've got a flaw on your hands and then have to prove it.  This bears up to what some extremely smart friends (i.e Advanced Degree Physics lab-rat as they call themselves) advised me unofficially told me about high-precision clocking assemblies.  ***My logic may be tragically flawed and I should have said I'm not advocating that anyone agree with me or make the same choice; it's one I am personally comfortable with and seems to be holding up for 2+ years now very well, i.e. based upon what I hear in my system.  You know the old saying,..check with me in a few years and I'll tell you how wrong I was (or right) :--) !

 

from me: Julian and MUTEC as a whole is well respected by all and as I mentioned, if I had not stumbled on Cybershaft years ago and not had great dealings as a customer with them thus far I'd bet I'd have a REF10 in my system.

 

“Inconsistent answers: to the extent that my experience matters, I can promise you based upon that experience alone that the inconsistencies are due to language barrier.  He's been extremely reliable in my dealings with him over 2+ years and always delivers what he says he will; the finer details of the communications and the fact that he's learning English these last 2 years including I believe taking classes as of late to improve his communications take a bit of getting used to but I trust him completely for which the proof has been in actions, not in words...”

 

I’ll tell what raised my hackles. In my original communication with Kenji, he explicitly said one can’t perceive the difference between OPn and OPn+1 (e.g., OP10 vs. OP11). Later on, when I made more inquires, he stated OP16 sounded better than OP15 when feeding MC3USB. So which is which? Could be a “translation” error, but it still raised a quizzical eyebrow.

 

from me: I'm with you there and had similar exchange mid-way with Kenji.  Here is what he meant (at least in my case);

 

 - it is impossible or at the very least improbable to hear a difference between OPn to OPn+1 as n and n+1 are each ranges of values and the actual values plus Allen Variance and Deviance may be so close together that the net effect for phase noise is literally a few femtoseconds which no one can hear as far as I know

- it is however possible (based upon direct listening) that OPn versus OPn+1 shows one HAPPENs to work better with a specific component and the two OCXO modules then also happen to be separated only by one gradation on the scale

- (my contribution): going up the scale by 1 or 2 does not necessarily always bring benefit.  I tested a number of modules inserted in a number of Cybershaft clocks over time at varying levels from OP10, OP12 on up to OP21.  As I believe I mentioned before but will emphasize now there were some OP levels that sounded quite bad even though they were n+1 or n+2 'better' than a given OPn level that had prior sounded quite good with a component. To my limited understanding, this tells me that not all OP levels are best for all gear and some may not be good matches for audio gear at all though I frankly don't know how to pose a scientific explanation for this...

 

from me: Great Conversation, thank you! Have a great holiday weekend!

(Sorry for the varying/italicized font-method of continuing the thread but for some reason when I tried to quote your post and mind amassed thus far it did not work well in the editor)

 

Mark

 

 

[zephyr24069]

8 hours ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

Thank you for making your points enlightening, packed with information and yet clear.

I have only one correction of sort. I enterd the cloak "fray" quite recently, when a substantial body of knowledge had already been accumulated and  disseminated. As far as I've gathered, "drift" - - that is, a clock losing its  calibration over a long period of time - - has no bearing on audio applications, which hardly ever extend longer than 2 hours.

In fact, what's crucial during that the relatively short period of playback is to consistency deliver high-precision signal, which OCOX  oscillators true shine at. 

 

In summation, even an aging clock that has drifted far off should deliver the same sonic benefits as a brand-new one. 

You are welcome...it's a great discussion and I appreciate the candor and all the useful facts!

 

I have the same understanding of drift at a baseline level however if a clock drifts in terms of its short-term accuracy and therefore also affecting phase noise (being then possible higher), I had thought (and could be wrong) that that would affect the quality of the sound.

 

It is definitely true as you state it though to my understanding, i.e. if a clock's behavior during playback periods is to produce rock solid and accurate timing, all will be well and what you state is 100% on point.

 

Have a great day!

Mark

[zephyr24069]

For anyone interested, I found out last night that this is now available as of this morning;

 

NEW PRODUCT JUST ANNOUNCED TODAY:
Cybershaft 10 M clocks : UPOCXO-OP20A/OP21A
http://www.cybershaft.jp/a-products/op20a.html

Looks like the bar just got raised again.
This clock also allows selection of 75-ohm or 50-ohm for each 10 Mhz output!