What are my rights here in Ontario canada ? ​​​​​​​

[RoseKloud666]

What are my rights here  in Ontario canada ? 

I ve had this amp i paid 5k for , since mid spring 2017

 

It has popped 2xs already 

 

I sent in for diagnosis Im told it was a dead short , my dynaudios were id as the likely culprits 

 

The dyns have been thoroughly tested and are working fine , so no dead short 

The problem begins with the dealer now who has presented me with a 700.00 repair bill , while telling me he is being completely fair with me , since this cost him parts and labour (Im still very well within my warranty)  He is also the builder company   of this amp

 

The dealer is willing to absorb that cost , if i trade down to a lesser amp , a 1k dollar loss , and a lesser amp for me

The amp would be  way under poweing my speakers btw which can never be a good move 

 

I wanted to go Bryston  originally for the no hassle 20 year warranty , as i questioned this mere 2 year warranty on a 5k amp , and was assured he does not hide behind warranties ,and that i would never have an issue 

 

This entire scene smells fishy to me

 

Originally there was no other amp he could sell me when i 1st called saying ive lost confidence in this product , i asked him to advise me on another comparable amp and now suddenly up pops another lesser amp , at a loss to me 

 

I never authorized such a expensive repair , and would have refused it if i would have been given the chance (And i still feel im within my warranty since ive eliminated what i was told was the culprit).

 

Can this dealer simply hold my property hostage , of which i ve already lost confidence in 

 

Even if i pay  the 700.00 I will never trust this wont be a continuing problem 

 

Please advise 

 

Thanks

[RoseKloud666]

Nice fast reply

Thank you ,

 

im likely not sleeping tonight

 

Music is my 1 escape in life , and since retiring ( semi , i may have to go back at this rate) Ill play music 12 to 16 hours a day , and my dealer knows this .It may also be a desperation(ME) card he knows will rush me 

My amp is a custom build (small Canadian company , i dont wish to mention its name until im 100% certain on everything . Im a fool , i felt over last near 2 years we had established a friendship , man im embarrassed) .

I did not get a receipt as it was a cash deal , pay no taxes ( likely illegal for him to do) . But i do believe i paid a portion on a credit card , a small remaining amount , so that may evidence something 

May 2017 sounds about right 

 

i dont think he can deny i bought it from him , i got a ride there and back , so there is a witness , and several texts between us also 

The warranty is 2 years , so Im well within the warranty period , the issue is Im told its a dead short (From Dynaudios) that caused the dead short , then im told its not a warranty claim anymore 

How was that decided/proven you may ask , well i ve not received that answer 

But heres the issue , they speakers have been tested thoroughly , and no dead short . Speakers are running now , on a much cheaper , and unsatisfying amp 

I would love to hear more input and appreciate all I have so far

 

 

[RoseKloud666]

PS

 

The trade amp i was offered was the hegel 160 , not near enough power for me

But since he has hegel connections , i would love to own the H 300 , the 360 has too many extras i donot need so 300 looks perfect . i left him a message asking for that one , but no reply 

I would pay the difference just to get rid of this situation

 

Does hegel make the H 300 anymore ?

 

i seen one for 3200.00 used , but it was gone as soon as i came back to re read the ad 

[RoseKloud666]

Unfortunately no

No social media atall

He is a member of canuck audio mart and maybe audiogon tho

[RoseKloud666]

@GUTB

Damn that blows mate 

Are you speaking as a fellow canuck , thats how you know this ?

I ve always had great luck buying here , this may be my 1st bad rip

I ve always had sellers tripping over them selves to please me

I would never be satisfied with a stereo from best buy , but i buy all my PC gear , TVs etc there , and their return policy is anti business its so damn good

I shoulda waited a year for more cash and gone Bryston i heard they do no questions or blame returns/repairs

[RoseKloud666]

Thank you all

[RoseKloud666]

Thank you fellow canuck

 

Us canuckleheads gotta stick together

I see he has  FB page , so that will also be a possibility once i am certain

But cant he just delete my post there ?

He certainly cannot on canuck audio mart 

I would not use foul banable language , i would just tell my story and present facts

I hope thats allowed there

 

Cheers

[RoseKloud666]

PS 

Would nt it be simple good customer satisfying service to satisfy the customer still under warranty , just a few months in , with 2 blow ups ,even if it was his fault , just this once , to satisfy the customer ?

 

I mean 2 blow ups in a month ( or slightly more) on a 5k amp

I mean what good is a warranty when its left to the sellers discretion to be able to simply shift the blame as he sees fit

Dynaudio says my speakers are A ok , no dead short , dealer says it was

So i pay 700.00 this time (if its not my dyns , its a problem amp and will likely happen again) , and if theres a next time this just continues 

So can the dealer blame it on something thats proven false ?

Is that not a card in my favour ?

PS i think he sells Dynaudios as well 

[RoseKloud666]

PS to all helping me here 

 I ve been running another , less expensive amp , an old Harmon Kardon tin can , for a few days now , zero issues

Does that evidence anything , ? Same speakers , cables etc ?

[RoseKloud666]

@ GUTB

Wow another canucklehead on here eh @ lucretius 

 

How did you know @ GUTB ?

 

@ lucretius 
Documentary evience ? Now you worried me . Im so paranoid on a 24 hour basis but i never thought of that angle

 

I have none , zero . Except some texts 

 

FFS now im really worried 

 

Im really running this over in my mind this is the picutre i paint (i have never been treated like this as a consumer . Companies always fall over themselves to help , except microsoft , but they never ripped me off)

 

I buy a 5k dollar product from this guy 

 

In about 4 months it badly fails 2xs , this within a month or a tad more 

 

On the 2nd repair its blamed on my speakers ( which are verified as not damaged ,and presently running another amplifier , a cheaper one , no limiter protection atall ) and im expected to swallow the cost of repair , or accept a 1k dollar loss , if i get a much cheaper/less powerful amp from him at 1 for one trade 

 

Add if i pay repair cost , im getting back an amp i have zero confidence in , this could be an endless cycle . i really just want out at this point with minimal loss if any 

 

So he is selling me another amp , so im still profiting his business , as he now has an amp worth 1k more than he paid for , and can now sell at another profit , and i still have to trust him to repair that amp if it faults

 

Since when would a reputable company , name any , that would have their product fail 2xs in such a short period , and charge you for returning it and still try to keep you as a customer , at the customers expense 

I ve returned so much stuff Ie best buy , to ma and pop computer stores after failures etc , full return , why should i lose eturning a faulty product 
 

My brain is really turning now 

 

This is exhausting and i appreciate all support here 

Cheers

[RoseKloud666]

In mean time can i please ask for any reputable dealers , preferred in Ont ( or canada )

who deal in Hegal (Im also open to other equally good amps of similar quality)

Im particularly interested in Hegel 300 , but its discontinued , yet very affordable on Ie canuck audio mart

Private sellers at that price point concern me tho 

I cant picture sticking with this present amp as all confidence has expired , a good reputable dealer ,esp. in Hegel used gear would be pleasing 

Im in need of 250W RMS or more And when i speak of Hegel , the quality im in for is obvious 

Thanks 

 

[RoseKloud666]

5 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Hi - The shortcut as your dealer tried to talk you into, really can happen (can have happened). I will try to explain in a next post.

Thank you 

I will wait

[RoseKloud666]

2 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

That amp will be rated at a certain Wattage. In layman's terms this is because of the "power" it provides, and/but merely because of the heat dissipation it can handle ("do"). This latter is 100% related to the impedance of the loudspeaker and this impedance varies. It varies per frequency (you could say it depends on the music) and it is also a reactance to the amp itself. Say that both talk to each other.

 

That impedance can be looked at as a resistance. This resistance applies between the two poles of the loudspeaker (cable).

If your speaker is rated at 4 Ohms, it means that the resistance between the two poles should not dive under 4 Ohms.

If it is rated at 8 Ohms - same story but then for 8.

 

The amp has such a rating just the same, although this will be more vague. If it is rated as 400W into 8 Ohms, and nothing else, no speakers should be connected with 4 Ohm impedance. Still the amp may be able to "do" this. But now notice that the 4 ohms is less resistance than 8 ohms, and the resistance determines the heat (dissipation required) in the amp.

Or :

When you play "strange" music with relatively many and high frequencies, the loudspeaker may drop to a resistance (impedance) of 2 Ohms. Or 1 Ohm. Or less.

 

If that supplier tells you that shortcut occurred, he actually means (and hopefully understands himself) that the resistance went too low. So 0 Ohms is a real shortcut, but 1 Ohm is that just the same for an amp which can only dissipate heat for the power it delivers into 4 Ohms resistance.

 

Stupidly the lesser (powered) amp may easily deal with the same speaker; if it can dissipate heat better, or just delivers less power so it is not required to dissipate much heat (and you have softer playing music).

 

So the dealer can be right ...

 

Maybe this helps you with a different (more positive) vision ?

Regards,

Peter

Thank you

Ill admit im still considering that intelligent reply

But i need to ask you , maybe i did not mention this , i was told that i over drove the speakers , i damaged the speakers while listening to music , never heard it occur , turned amp on hours later , and then the damaged speakers damaged my amp , but consider the speakers still work fine 

Can that be explained ?

Thanks mate

[RoseKloud666]

Turned amp off , hours later turned back on is what i meant

[RoseKloud666]

6 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Haha, sorry you don’t make any sense

 

Amps see speakers as a load — the lower the speaker’s resistance, the more the speaker will demand from the amp. Here is an example of a random Dynaudio impedance curve:

 

This Emit M10 is rated for 6 Omhs but it dips below that in a few places, and spends most of its time way above that. A properly designed amp should never burn out over this kind of periodic dip in impedance. As I said I bet your others amps will be just fine.

 

Consider Modwright on the used market. Oddesy is probably the cheapest of the boutique builders. Oh, the new Schiit monoblocks (Vidar?) are competitive. You can pick up a huge 600W Accuphase clone from AliExpress for around $3K. Oh, I just remembered Musical Paradise, Canada-based seller of China-based hi-fi for really cheap.

Thank you 

I will check those names out All new to me

Names ive considered for at least 250 w RMS are Hegel (i shoulda got the H300 when it was still available.Im interested if a reputable person or dealer still has one for sale) , bryston , Krell , and a new name to me is Classe . Is Classe in same league as these others?

In all my searches at 250W all those are out of my bank roll , unless i can find a good used one from a reputable source 

Are there any reputable dealers in Ont or even Canada who carry hi end used like this ?

Does Hegel have authorized service in Canada or Ontario ? 

I may even go USA if they are reputable enough and can do warranty in the cold north 

One other thing , i keep hearing about how this or that is possible , but doesnt stand to much reason or even likely 

Is that an out for a dealer who made a claim about damage , but cant prove it?

Is there some level of reasonable doubt either myself or the dealer should adhere to ?

 

Thanks again

[RoseKloud666]

@Indydan

Thank you 

Dynaudio focus 340s and  my speakers 250 w 4 ohm

Im thinking being use to the power i had that satisfied me , less power , all else being equal , wont satisfy me

I also picture a scenario where i may get carried away and being un satisfied may crank the dial too high on a 150 W amp too much and clip(?If thats the word) my speakers
 

Im still taking in all the kind replies here and will respond asap , my grand kids are about to show up so things will get busy

 

Thank you all
 

[RoseKloud666]

15 minutes ago, Indydan said:

Just to let you know, a Montreal dealer is selling a floor model demo of the Hegel 300 for 3600$ canadian. I have dealt with this dealer and he is very courteous and reliable.

 

https://www.codellaudio.com/en/pre-owned

Thanks mate

 

It sold 

Man they go fast

Id buy a new one if possible

 

[RoseKloud666]

PS

 

Some bad news for me , i found the insert sheet for my amp , its a 90 day warranty ,tho dealer told me its a 2 year warranty . i remember the conversation specifically because i spoke concern for such a wee warranty compared to Bryston , and was told the smaller 2 year warranty was no concern because he/amp builder do not hide behind warranties (seems thats not true).

 

Examples of misuse in warranty is defective speakers . Ie speakers which require more power than the amp can supply ( not even close to the case here ) ,speakers that have extreme phase angle of impedance and low impedance.

 

On my side is that the 1st defect was within 90 days 

 

Im feeling i may have took a shining here

[RoseKloud666]

Thank you everyone 

@Indydan

Yes i would like that name please 

Isodore who you mentioned was a decent hook up and knowledegable 

The desired Hegel was gone tho , im thinking the 70 W Naim wont satisfy me coming from the power i had tho . I will still keep in touch with him , as he does regularly carry used gear and is a dealer .

But your comment on your Naim makes me think im overstating wattage ?

Id like to understand more about how i may not miss the 300+ W (i couldnt use over 250 as Dyns are 250W) so we ll say 250 watts i had , to move to the naim 70 W amp ,seems a huge drop  Or the Hegel 160 (which dealer wants to do a straight trade with  , seems a hose job) at 150 W

Am i not going to miss my 250W +   to move to a Hegel 160W or even lower to a Naim 70 W ? (Thanks for patience)

 

Im feeling if i got my hands on a H300 i would be pleasured

 

 

@NOMBEDES 

No doubt that if this is not settled in a satisfactory manner i will reveal all 

I found his facebook ( tho im sure he can delete posts there ) , he advertises on canuck and maybe audiogon. I wont be rude , just blunt honesty 

 

I hope they allow that 

@GUTB

 

Thats some enlightening facts thank you 

 

@Norton

 

Thank you , alot of our laws are similary to UK , i hope its same call here 

 

 

[RoseKloud666]

@GregWormald

Thanks mate

Esp thanks for helping me get a bit more understanding on wattage and that i dont necessarily need 250W for top performance on 250W speakers

It seems the H 160 may well power my Dyns enough , but still an unfair trade , 5k for 3200.00 ,and its not my failed product

  
"The offer of a substitute amp rather than fixing yours "

No they fixed mine , a 700.00 repair without my authorization tho

I was naive enough to expect the same friendly OTT service as when i went into the store with cash in hand 

Man was i shown a surprise 

I can either pay the repair bill , and get back a product i have lost confidence in , and cant stop wondering how many more 700.00 repairs will i need ,or accept the lesser amp H 160 , which is dropping quickly in price as the H 190 is due in a few weeks , the H 160 dropped to 3200.00 Canadian last i checked

So my position is i spent 5k on an amp , and after being inconvenienced to the tune of likely a month in total , am offered a 3200.00 amp . 

I ve lost my passion(music)  for about 1 month and now pay for it to add insult to injury 

I dont even know whats in that amp box anymore at this point Trust blown 

So as i summarize it this way , not to sound aggressive 

i buy a 5k product , it fails 2xs in 1 to  2 months 

I return it and am confronted not with any fair exchange or refund , but expected to take a large cut(cost to me) because his product failed 

Im losing 1800.00 on a failed product in only a few months 

I honestly cant understand it any other way 

 

 

[RoseKloud666]

@jcbenten

 

Thank you 

"what is the rating of the amp for the entire range (20-20K hz)? "

 

Its the Hegel 160 , i looked and dont evidence those specs 

Im slowly understanding that lesser wattage than the speakers rating doesnt mean under powering my speakers , or losing punch/power/volume (Am i correct so far?)

 

Even that 70 watts will satisfactorily power my 250W speakers doesnt make sense to me , but somehow 70W can satisfy 250W Dyns

Thanks to all

 

 

[RoseKloud666]

@Indydan

Thanks Dan 

 

Yes @ GregWormald explained that well

 

Cheers Greg

 

You say "high current capability"

So how do i determine the high current capability in a speaker that in watts appears less powerful?

Cheers

 

 

[RoseKloud666]

1 minute ago, Indydan said:

 

I am not sure what you mean. There is no such thing as 250 watt speakers. Speakers don't have watts. What that spec most likely means, is that the speakers can take 250 watts maximum, not that they need 250 watts. 

My thick grape is slowly grasping this idea 

Cheers for the patience 

I m under the impression more watts equal more  volume ?

Yes i want more than volume , but i do love to feel the music , but not at the expense of the rest of the audio experience 

In that thinking a 250 watt amp would be louder than a 70 watt amp or even a 150 watt amp

Now im slowly seeing that other factors are high current capability (of amp) is also a factor in how loud the speaker can be driven and that speaker Watts is simply their top watts they can handle , not that they require it to perform great 

So then a 70 watt Naim , or a 150 watt Hegel with a decent high current capability can also be as loud as a more powerful (in watts ) amplifier with less  current capability?

Where in specs do i determine high current capability ?

Cheers

 

[RoseKloud666]

Just now, Indydan said:

I looked at the specs of your speakers and found that 250 watts.

 

This is the spec: IEC power handling > 250 watts

 

That is a somewhat complicated spec to understand. It does not mean the speaker requires 250 watts to operate. Also, the watts in the IEC rating are not like the watts in amplifier ratings. An amp rated at 50 watts, means a clean 50 watts with no distortion. That same 50 watt amp can deliver 100 watts, but with some level of distortion.

 

It is not easy to try to match amps and speakers with specs on paper. The best way is to listen to them if possible, or ask a dealer who knows the products.

Thanks Indydan

I look forward to learning more 

I feel good i will be soon able to make an informed decision

Is that Indy as in the 500 , or as in music ?

Cheers

[RoseKloud666]

8 minutes ago, Indydan said:

 

Indy is an old nickname I have, because many years ago I dressed up as Indiana Jones for halloween! 

Nice And that has stuck :)-

And thank you for all

Maybe i can now not focus so hard on my 250W in speakers and needing 250W in amp to satisfy speakers and myself

But when mommas happy(My Dyns because im single lol) papas also happy

Ill likely still be concerned as to where the satisfying line can be safely cut off 

Maybe the Hegel 160 can satisfy momma and me , but still a huge 1800.00 unfair trade , a huge loss for me (H160 is now 3200.00 as H190 is close o release ) 

 

Does the H160 have a high quality beefy power supply and high current capability ?