10 grand - what set up would you recommend?

[beerandmusic]

On 7/21/2017 at 3:33 PM, bigblue said:

I am about to take my first steps down the Hard drive based Avenue of Music.

• I am interested in a Roon based system. 
• SOtM 200 Ultra or Sonore UltraRendu would be very interesting but the total number of boxes, 6 in total (NUC+PS, NAA+PS, Reclocker+PS) will not fit my rack.
• If SQ would improve I would not hesitate to go with a Nucleus w music library feeding the endpoint. 
• I want to minimize the risk of having "issues" with the set up (drop outs, pops and cracks).
• The converter to be fed is the built in DAC of the Gryphon Diablo 300. It accepts S/PDIF as well as USB and AES/EBU.

 

Where would you suggest I go looking with a 8-10 k USD budget?

So far I have only 2 contenders on the list: Innous Zenith Mk II and Antipodes DX.

Would you say such a "one box solution" is a big compromise and the above mentioned 6-box set up would be far superior?

 

 

$10k for entire system, or just for source?

If you want ethernet and don't want multiple boxes,  high on my list is the newly released LUMIN D2

 

[beerandmusic]

48 minutes ago, thyname said:

It just hit me: has anyone tried Oppo UDP-205 as a preamp / DAC for streaming?

 

It is Roon Ready

 

Depends on if the $10K is his entire system budget or just the source budget.

I would believe that doing native DSD via Jriver and it's ethernet would sound close to as good as what is out there at it's price point.

 

The Auralics have built in LPS, and Lumin also have good reviews.

 

[beerandmusic]

Here is a list of certified compatible roon endpoints

If i had to buy one thing right now, i would lean toward the new LUMINA D2 ($2300), but your budget may be higher.

 

http://roonready.com/

[beerandmusic]

5 minutes ago, thyname said:

 

Are you still replying to me? I already have a Lumin T1. Looking for an all-in Streamer / DAC / preamp for my second system

 

The QX5-20 is only device on the list in that budget that i noted....I don't even see the other devices you listed?

 

http://roonready.com/

 

On a side note, how do you like the T1? 

[beerandmusic]

7 minutes ago, bigblue said:

 

I am thinking 10 000 USD for the source. I am looking for something that can deliver a musical experience on par with my analog set up (Brinkmann Bardo, RöNT tube power supply, Lyra Etna cartridge). My reference when it comes to sources is a Real 2 Real tape deck like a Studer A80 or B67.

The new Antipodes DX Gen 3 looks like an interesting contender. Any one planning to get a unit?

 

your main bottleneck in your selections is the roon endpoint requirement...so pick your poison off the list....

 

SOTM does make a server (i dont think it is on the list?) about $4K i believe that is an all in one unit...so you don't need to go with the trifecta to get their edge on the market.

That or just find space to connect the sotm ultra to your dac choice.....
 

[beerandmusic]

nvm

 

 

 

[beerandmusic]

2 minutes ago, bigblue said:

SoTM sure makes some nice devices.

When was this released?

When Googling it seems it was released 2013.

In this world that is eons of time :-).

 

nvm...i just deleted it....that is not a streamer....

I contacted SOTM and asked them if they had an all in one streamer box, and i thought they pointed me to that....i will have to check again...perhaps they misunderstood that i wanted a streamer/dac ....

[beerandmusic]

^^^^ I don't see one on their site (e.g. streamer dac).

I think if i had all the money in the world, i would either go with the rendu or sotm ultra to your choice of dac and make the space.  I am sure within a year, there will be options out there that take advantage of ethernet and advanced clocking and dac in one box, but you may have the best option with your T1 now.

 

Give it a year or go with the SOTM ultra and your choice dac.

[beerandmusic]

check out this article....

 

https://www.audiostream.com/content/iso-regen#C3W2zoAlYvEHIQYS.99

 

They are saying what i have been thinking for 4 years....forget which dac, go ethernet and the dac importance is minuscule.

 

EXCERPT::::

The reason any of this might be worth writing about is that the sonic and musical improvements offered by these upstream devices turn out, in many cases, to be surprisingly substantial, and often larger than those obtainable by swapping DACs.
 

 

 

 

[beerandmusic]

7 minutes ago, bigblue said:

I think your suggestion is right on. 

But it will always be in the back of my mind that I could improve the sound further with an upgraded power supply. And also with a USB isolator. And then a power supply upgrade to that isolator. And then the NUC could also sound better with a good power supply. And suddenly I have 6 boxes :-)

 

SOME boxes have LPS in them....I think no usb is the answer imho....Doesn't the T1 have upgraded LPS?  I know Auralic boxes do.

 

Land in the 200 SOTM thread...lots of good info there if you are a tweaker....

 

I just want a one box solution, as i believe it can be done RIGHT in one box and that the time is near.....good LPS, ethernet in, good clock, analog out....we are almost there...

[beerandmusic]

8 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

I would suggest a PS Audio DirectStream DAC with Network Bridge II installed which will act as a Roon Endooint via Ethernet. Then buy a dedicated Roon server with the rest of your money. You don’t really want the server and endpoint in the same box anyway. 

 

Boom....no USB!

 

I think the PS AUDIO is a very good solution...does the network bridge have a good clock? Does it allow you to turn off hardware upsampling?  Those would be my 2 concerns

[beerandmusic]

7 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Why do you care if you can use it as a NOS DAC? 

 

because i would prefer to play native dsd

If i have a dsd64 file i would prefer it without hardware upsampling.

 

My desires haven't changed since 4 years ago.....i keep harping for same things.

If you read through my history, you would know that....I have always preferred native dsd over ethernet, and given the choice, i would turn off hardware upsampling...it always sounds worse than native for DSD64+

 

Aren't you a pcm guy....what do you know about listening to native DSD...

 

[beerandmusic]

3 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

I have the PS Audio Directstream and the Bridge II network card and they are a VERY good DAC and endpoint combo.

 

I am a big fan of Paul McGowan, Ted Smith and the PSA team in general. Their ethos and the support they provide is truly excellent. I would heartily recommend this product to anyone. It should be an 'end-game' product especially when paired with a good server. 

 

The fact that they are continuing to release software updates that further improves this DAC is also phenomenal. For the time being it future proofs you and prevents you being left with an obsolete bit of kit.

 

Should tho is arbitrary in this game and what can I say. I wanted and still want 'more'.

 

I found I could squeeze a further improvement (on an already excellent SQ) by using (an over-complicated) setup that currently comprises the MicroRendu, the ISO Regen and the Singxer SU-1 (to feed the Directstream it's preferred format of I2S). The improvement is small but significant. That said I'm a bit fed up with the 'spaghetti' mix of power supplies and cables.

 

I'm also intrigued by the so called SOTM Trifecta but replacing one mess of cables with another is putting me off going down that road.

 

I'm therefore seriously considering the Innuos Zenith SE (as it's getting great praise) as a 'one-box' alternative to my current server>MR>IR>SU-1 to DAC digital pathway. It's not cheap but I'm hopeful that the combo of kick-ass server and kick-ass DAC finally quells the audiophilia nervosa and lets me relax a bit and enjoy the music.

 

For 10k ballpark I think you could do a lot worse than these two.

 

The new Antipodes DX Gen 3 is also intriguing but it's USB only for output whereas the Zenith SE has both USB and Ethernet output which is somewhat more flexible and future proof.

 

That said - it's not lost on me that the nature of this hobby being what it is that there's nothing to stop me from splashing a further 6k on the Zenith ZE and then still reinstating the IR, the SU-1 or the latest/greatest gizmo  

 

But then life would be dull if we could get the definitive 'this is the best possible kit' answer that Beer seems to be on such a quest to find!

 

Anyways - just my experience and thoughts based on my own journey.

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

Thanks for your input...yea, i want everythng for nothing in a small little box (grin)...

I do believe we will have 95% of the SQ for relatively cheap soon...and i also understand and appreciate those with deep pockets that can afford to pay for that extra 5% and that keeps this hobby moving, and engineers engineering (wink)

 

On a side note, does the direct stream allow you to turn off hardware upsampling?  I know they sell a junior box that i looked at, but I don't believe you had the option of turning it off, but i have looked at and discounted so many, that I may be wrong.

 

Right now the LUMINA D2 seems to be my magic box in my price range....but hoping that similar box can include a LPS internal to the box (like the altair), for the same price point, along with an advanced clock (grin)....i think it will be soon...hopefully before i die, i can afford a quality piece of gear meeting all my checkmarks....

[beerandmusic]

9 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

 

No offence intended here but it's comments like this that seem to be getting you into arguments on so many of your posts. You make this virtue of not wanting to understand/research stuff in favour of just peppering all these random questions at people.

 

In this instance you've neglected to take a moment to look at the Directstream because you clearly don't understand what it is. The 'Directstream' name comes from the from DSD (Direct Stream Digital) and the mechanism for how this DAC functions is to break PCM or DSD down and then upsample it to x20 DSD.

 

So sure, to disable hardware upsampling there is a power off button at the back 

 

I said i did research it, and i don't recall, but i believed it was because you couldn't disable hardware upsampling...so i was correct.  I have looked into so many DACS and my memory is not so good, so my apologies.  I am sure it sounds wonderful, but it is out of my price point, and with dacs that i have heard at my price point, native dsd sounded better...of course i can't compare my testing at my price point to the directstream...i did not mean any offense...i was merely inquisitive...maybe your answer would be that you could turn off hardware upsampling on your model, and that you also prefer native dsd....that is where my head was at....wanting to know if you had similar experience..but obviously not. 

Not me, but I also know a lot of people like to do software upsampling with HQP.

Different people want different things..i was just commenting that is why if i had my choice, money no object, i would likely go with a different solution. 

Author of this thread is soliciting opinions, and i am sharing...that is all...i didn't mean to offend, but i think everyone feels offended when someone's views are different than their own. 

 

[beerandmusic]

1 minute ago, BigAlMc said:

Cool - no worries. 

 

But no you cannot turn off upsampling on the DS because upsampling to DSD is what it is all about.

 

FWIW I don't particularly care about DSD as a format and don't own a lot of native DSD. I bought this DAC based on the SQ (not DSD format) and it's excellent. But yes, it's a high price.

 

That Lumin D2 on your latest post also looks very nice.

 

Cheers,

Alan

Thank you sir!

That is exactly my point....different strokes for different folks.....i rarely listen to anything but native DSD any more....even if it is the same 1000 tracks over and over (grin). 

 

here's a favorite i have in dsd...sounds great in pcm too....love sharing it...

 

[beerandmusic]

33 minutes ago, thyname said:

Is there a R2R DAC (like Holo or Metrum or Denafrips) with Built in Streamer?

a quick google brings up this (but it has amp too), but i am certain that i have found a different streamer dac w/r2r...i will continue to look, i know i considered one...but likely price crossed it off my list....

 

http://www.remusic.it/EN/Introducing-Acuhorn-RATE-integrated-amp-and-R2R-streamer-a06f5300

[beerandmusic]

14 minutes ago, thyname said:

Can someone (like @The Computer Audiophile) chime in on the merits (or lack thereof) of an Ethernet DAC / Streamer all-in-one vs. separates (I.e. Spaghetti solution)?

 

the downside is upgradability and flexibility....

the upside is price, space, convenience, ease of setup.

Quality can come in both.

[beerandmusic]

45 minutes ago, thyname said:

Can someone (like @The Computer Audiophile) chime in on the merits (or lack thereof) of an Ethernet DAC / Streamer all-in-one vs. separates (I.e. Spaghetti solution)?

 

And even single box solution can be flexible (e.g. modular)

I know Mcintosh latest integrated MA5300 upgraded their MA5200 to a modular approach at the digital interface, and rumor has it a D2 digital module with improved clock and noise suppression circuitry is in the works....hopefully they will add an ethernet port to it too...then I KNOW which direction i would be going.

 

[beerandmusic]

6 hours ago, thyname said:

 

Nothing new here. All obvious.

 

I was asking more in terms of SQ

 

as OP stated...the SQ is dependent on the engineering of the solution, regardless of 1 box or 10 boxes.

 

With multiple boxes, you have many interconnects, which also are subjective....eliminate the need for subjective interconnects and unneeded interfaces.  You will get subjective responses about noise internal to the unit, but in my belief this noise should be able to be managed with a good design....(e.g. good ps, shielding, clocking, filtering, etc...)

 

However with multiple boxes, you can get best in class of each box, so one should be able to put together best in class with multiple boxes to obtain the best SQ.....but then you have to debate what is best in class for each box, and how well they work together.

 

I personally believe a one box solution can be engineered to compete with any multiple box solution.

[beerandmusic]

18 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

Well let's make one that will compete, how about two multi rail power suppllies and their heatsinks,

 

one properly designed ps will be more than sufficient to drive an sd card, network intfc and dac....and the PS can be external if so desired.

 

Doesn't require a lot of juice to power a network intfc and dac....

 

don't need ssd (since network storage is desired here....e.g. streaming...), but sd card would be nice option.

 

Several quality one box solutions already exist...just need a little more tweaking...

 

[beerandmusic]

3 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

Yes but it still will be a compromise. The DAC Only will benefit from 2 seperate power supplies one for the digital and one for the analogue circuits, then you have the clock / reclocking board, buffer board, etc thats three or four supplies already, quite a lot of' 'juice'.

We have not touched the other components yet! So one PS is a compromise.

 

If one PS is enough for a DAC, then adding a ps for a low power consuming network intfc should not be needed...again, they already exist.

 

Are there dacs that use 2ps and offer increased SQ based on 2 ps?

Just asking...

[beerandmusic]

11 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

Sure eg. Mytek Manhatten has 2 seperated and isolated linear power supplies, the Brooklyn at a lower cost has one SMPS you get what you pay for.

 

Is the reason for 2 isolated ps for power requirements or trying to isolate for noise? 

I think a better design could be created with one ps that would offer same SQ as mytek at that price point....jmo

 

[beerandmusic]

5 minutes ago, rickca said:

@beerandmusic here's something for you.  Just a wee bit outside your target price range at $38K.  I have the Aeris DAC that is built into this unit.  Just to give you an idea of what it takes to put all this stuff in one properly engineered box.

http://jeffrowlandgroup.com/us/daemon-integrated.html

 

One box, i knew it could be done (wink)

[beerandmusic]

13 hours ago, bigblue said:

 

Esoteric sure make some fine sounding products and this seems to be yet another one. But as I already have a built in DAC in the Diablo that plays on par with an MSB Analog DAC w. Power Base (13 000 USD set up) I would like to find a product that does not include a DAC.

 

if you already have a dac, i am not sure you can find anything more accurate than what the SOTM will do?

I mean all you are trying to do is to transfer bits from the ethernet interface to the dac?

I would think this could be done perfectly 100% of the time with just about any network interface providing a compatible clock with your dac?

 

This stuff still is very difficult for me to understand why we need any rocket science to transfer bits with 100% accuracy....and CHEAPLY??!  There has to be a lot of snake-oil in this craziness....

I can understand special design circuitry in the D-A conversion, and why that would matter, but i can't figure out why you need any special design to transfer digital bits....

 

I would love to see some written logic why one ethernet bridge can really be any better than another one, disregarding any logic needed to support RAAT or DLNA....just the transfer of the bits?

 

.....or maybe there is needed "engineering" to deal with the USB interface?  And if that is the case, then that just adds to my thought about why the USB interface should be eliminated all together....

 

 

[beerandmusic]

5 hours ago, bigblue said:

 

I am sure SoTM will do this perfectly where all bits are shipped in the right order from A to B. But as I understand its more than just "transporting". Otherwise they all would sound the same - but they don´t. In the same way all CD players sound different. Pure power and vibrations are two areas that have a great impact on the end result. And this is something I have encountered many times in my own system. I tried out 4 different "feet" when searching for the optimal way to isolate my gear from the rack. They all affected the sound slightly different. I ended up with Stillpoint. One of the best upgrades to my turntable was a tube based power supply instead of the standard SS. Why this makes the music more involving - I don't know. 

 

i could understand vibration may make a difference for a phsical transport like a cd drive or turntable, i don't see it making a differce in transferring bits via ethernet. Also the ps should make little difference in the transfer of bits...maybe in the dac, but not in the ethernet transfer from a to b.  Think a computer with a cheap power supply and vigorously shaking it while transferring a digital file over ethernet....it will transfer same file digitally accurately 100% of the time.