MQA is Vaporware

[jbwhite]

The suspense keeps building. This better be good.

[jbwhite]

What happened: Archimago copy and pasted the entire contents of a post on AudioStream for use on his site. It was taken down.

 

The rest of this back and forth is about two people who want to pretend that a) this is just fine, and b) I'm the bad guy in this scenario.

 

I could have guessed that. I wasted all that time for this? That was a really bad movie.

[jbwhite]

Apologies. I'm certain that plissken and mansr will be able to offer a much more entertaining version.

Yeh, I even had to put up with all that annoying advertising that kept popping up. At least they should show the movie without that!

[jbwhite]

Can we make this more constructive? Michael Lavorgna isn't going to change his style or personality, right?

 

If we are concerned that MQA represents a clash between consumer and corporate interests, we need to collectively figure out how to effectively counteract its momentum.

 

The question here has been whether this momentum is real or just a lot of propaganda and MQA business development investment activity.

 

I agree. ML did make one valid point. "Lavorgna and MQA Are Taking Over the Music Industry to Issue DRM....and They're Going to Make a LOT OF $MONEY$!" just isn't doing it.

What do you think about "Bob Stuart is Holding Sex Slaves in a Pizzeria and Won't Release Them Unless They Listen To MQA.....And It Sounds REALLY BAD!"

[jbwhite]

..

[jbwhite]

Did I win

No

[jbwhite]

Thanks witchdoctor I did just this. Your not going to like it, but the 16/44 is better through my system - horns HF harmonics are "burnt" in the MQA version...

I do love your objectivity. Thanks for the post.

[jbwhite]

When this thread was started, there were a handful of MQA DACs (mostly from Meridian) on the market. There was no music other than a few 2L releases. There was no software decode. It was, by all accounts, vapourware. Just days later, however, Tidal launched their software decoder and a bunch of titles for streaming, shortly followed by announcements of software MQA decoding to come in several popular players.

That's still not vaporware.

[jbwhite]

I do believe that may have been mansr's point, unless I misunderstand him (which is entirely possible).

Could be. My definition is "software or hardware that has been advertised but is not yet available to buy, either because it is only a concept or because it is still being written or designed." It hasn't been vaporware for a long time. I thought a while back he said it was because it represented only .25% (25 basis point) of the market or some nonsense like that.

[jbwhite]

I don't think Roon has said this at all, and Bob Stuart has specifically stated that full unfolding won't be done in software.

 

My understanding is that Roon is going to have the same stage 1 processing (i.e., one unfold) of MQA software, just like Tidal is doing at present. No further unfolding, and no application of the deblurring done in an MQA DAC.

You're right. I was referring to Roon statements by Danny Dulai that he posted in Jan '16 where he kept saying "we are in a unigue situation because of our certified USB Dacs." He even said Roon may be able to build in DAC profiling because of their "unique position." He never said "full" decoding. Stuart told Chris C. in Apr '16 that deals were in place for software decoding, and that there is no technological reason DAC profiling couldn't be done effectively via software. The only reason he said it should be in the DAC was to promote "creativity" for the hardware engineers or some such marketing BS. Roon has not yet announced whether their decoding will be one fold or two folds. We just have to wait and see (and I know that's hard around here).

 

But you're right. You guys got me again. Mea Culpa.

 

I've posted citations and links over on the PS Audio forum, as I've already told you.

[jbwhite]

I don't think it's still accurate to characterise MQA as vapourware. At the time this thread was started, the notion had merit, mostly due to the lack of content.

Thank you for explaining. But the definition of vaporware has nothing to do with content.

(Although I couldn't care less about the name of the thread). It would be helpful for me if there were a few facts and a little bit of logic in your arguments. There may even be merit in your arguments if I could figure them out.

[jbwhite]

In this environment, quotes from 8 and 12 months ago are highly likely to be less relevant than statements from a week or so ago directly addressing these issues. That said, I'll be happy if I'm wrong and Roon includes more than first fold unfolding.

 

I agree with most of what you've said. But I have less confidence in the PR statements than you do. What the guys running the business know and are willing to reveal carries more weight with me than the PR BS.

 

Also Danny Dulai made it very clear that he wasn't allowed to release any more details.

 

I'm also very intrigued by Dulai's statements about being in a unique positions do things that nobody else is able to.

 

But like I said before, we'll just have to wait and see.

[jbwhite]

In this context, I believe it does.

Fine, believe what you like.

[jbwhite]

Oh, I bet he doesn't mind this a bit. More eyes, more clicks. It's what any internet site wants. This thread has gotten boring though.

Not possible. Chris would never want to make $money$ from his site.

[jbwhite]

There are several areas that need to meet the threshold of adoption. One not discussed much here is the mastering facility.

Agreed, I haven't seen much of anything discussed here.

[jbwhite]

I'll bet the entire Warner MQA dump was done at the same facility. I'm happy to be wrong if someone has details on this.

 

Wrong. As I recall it was done in 7 or 8 facilities around the globe, although the number may be off. All automated with very little change in parameters to adjust for the ADC used (if known at all).

[jbwhite]

Sorry to leave, but I have to go work out. I'm an old man and I don't want the brain to deteriorate any more.

[jbwhite]

Do you have a URL to share about this? Would like to know some details. Thanks

 

I don't recall where I read it. It was within the last week or so.

[jbwhite]

I don't recall where I read it. It was within the last week or so.

 

Now that I think about it, I believe it was from a Bob Stuart interview back around Oct. That's not exactly what he said, just my interpretation after filtering out the marketing spin.

 

I think I posted a link for it over on the PS Audio forum.

 

Got to get back to the work out. It seems to be helping me shake out the cob webs.

[jbwhite]

Actually, not all communication (even most) is about convincing the other side or "converting" - much of it is simply a mess where people are trying to figure out what is being said about what at all. This is a "benefit" that is not often talked about but is real. Again, the personal tit for tat is all but useless. However, in the real world there is always (always always always) some amount of that and the idea that we can "purge" such unpleasantness completely is idealistic (that is to say, unrealistic).

 

I bet you wish you had better communication with your wife. I bet after the last fight you promised yourself you were never going to stoop to such a level again. I also know (as sure as the sun is going to rise tomorrow) that you will do exactly that (stoop low, even lower) within a week, or a month - soon, soon you will be saying awful things to your wife. I could ask you "do you think that helps/converts/etc." but we both know the answer to that question...

 

In hindsight, Crenca's method of communication *is* much more effective. Look at this, nobody's replying to my quotes anymore. I better insult somebody and "stoop low, even lower." I'm starting to feel rejected.

 

I see I was promoted to Sophmore member! And in only a week (thanks in advance and to whoever corrects me about the number of days, you saved me some time). I *must* be a prodigy. I didn't even have to pass any kind of minimal competency evaluation.

[jbwhite]

Regarding MQA in Roon I am confidently expecting something more than the Tidal software decoding. Roon have made it clear that MQA have had to do new development on their side. I don't see why if its just another license of their software decoder.

I agree, however what I've seen them say is the multi-room stuff and all the other things Roon does will slow down the release. I'm hopeful on the second unfolding, but really wouldn't hazard a guess at this point.

[jbwhite]

Am I wrong in thinking that there is far more coding to be done than simply adding a licensed plug-in? I'm guessing the fact that only the desktop version of Tidal was modified is not because an iphone doesn't have enough horsepower to decode MQA. The coding for IOS/Android is likely much more difficult if it's even possible.

Roon was already working on the coding in Jan '16 per Dulai. If you are familiar with Roon, you know they never launch anything until it works really, really well. Their initial beta was way better than any 1.0 software release I've seen. They are committed to the user experience and don't rely on customers to debug for them. I'm sure that's what they are doing now.

[jbwhite]

Regarding MQA in Roon I am confidently expecting something more than the Tidal software decoding. Roon have made it clear that MQA have had to do new development on their side. I don't see why if its just another license of their software decoder.

 

I was just scanning my original post over on the PS Audio forum. This is old (again, Jan '16), but what he said implied full decoding.

 

Actually, Danny Dulai, the Roon Labs COO post in Jan ’16 told us this was going to happen, but “We don’t have a release date yet.” That’s why I never considered purchasing an MQA enabled DAC and haven’t wasted the last year trying to figure out whether MQA was something I had to have. The folks at Roon really are fantastic and they always deliver on their promises.

 

dannyDanny DulaiRoon Labs: COO

Jan ’16

 

 

miguelito:

Is the plan here to allow Roon to decode MQA into the original PCM bitstream?

Yes…. and to answer your next question: We don’t have a release date yet.

 

 

 

 

 

"into the original PCM bitstream" is key. Now I'd be willing to bet Roon will do full decoding and probably DAC profiling for a least some of their certified DACs. That must be where I got it in my head they announced full decoding a year ago. They wouldn't be saying that if they hadn't already cut a deal with MQA.

[jbwhite]

In light of this, do you suppose this information is incorrect or outdated?:

 

No. I added a line to my previous post.

"They wouldn't be saying that if they hadn't already cut a deal with MQA."

[jbwhite]

Thanks. And it's difficult not to read something into Roon's tight-lipped stance on this...

And I'll take back my second Mea Culpa. Just for the record that's only one - and that on a technicality because the bloke didn't have his sarcasm meter turned on.