T+a dac 8 dsd

[Priaptor]

Agreed, but I would also suggest that they save even more money in any future upgrades as well. So, yes, more money invested now, but better ROI in the future, especially with the arrival of DSD1024 and who knows what else...

 

You know I waited before ordering my new computer to see what these new chips were going to be and have to say I wasn't impressed enough to order it. Plus Ed on this thread has made some great points regarding the i6700K as being the best choice for this DAC if you want to upsample to 512. I made a mistake years ago on the desktop I still have ordering the 3960x vs. it's much cheaper alternative which runs at higher clock speeds, similar to this current set of chips.

[Priaptor]

What do you think of the Falcon NW machine you bought now? I looked it up on the website and on paper it seems like a great choice for fanless upsampling to DSD 512.

 

FD,

 

I have been waiting and waiting. Supposedly it will be here on Monday and it couldn't come soon enough. I am off to Montana again so I really want to listen to the T&A the way it was meant to be played and my current workhorse is literally dying a slow but definitive death; its in the ICU on life support.

 

I like the tiny footprint but will definitely report on it after I get it and set it up and see how it mates with the T&A. My goal is to set it up in my office with ROON-->HQP upsampled to DSD512 through my network to my CAPS running NAA in my listening room. I will also try it direct to the T&A putting my JCAT directly into the NW Falcon.

 

Will defintely be reporting back on this. Plus I am very eagerly looking forward to comparing the setup to my microRendu-->MSB Diamond Plus which has never sounded better.

[Priaptor]

Finished new build:

 

i7-6700K

Noctua NH-D15S CPU Cooler with 140mm fan

EVGA GeForce GTX 1070 (Founders Edition)

Gigabyte GA-Z170X-UD5

HyperX Fury 16GB memory

WD Red 4TB Hard Drive

Samsung 850 Pro 128GB SSD

SeaSonic SS-520FL2

Corsair 400Q Case

Windows 10 Pro

Fidelizer Pro

Noctua Case fans (3)

 

DSD512 upsampling with HQPlayer is outstanding. Using a Windows 10 NAA with HDPlex LPS connected to the T+A DAC8.

 

With Cuda offloading using the GTX 1070 the CPU runs at 20-28% and 40-49C. Case temps hover at 40-45C. The PCI backplate (heatsink) of the video card does run extremely hot though.

 

I also DIYed an SPDIF BNC 75ohm connection with Mogami W2964 coaxial cable, taking the digital signal direct from the two pin SPDIF header on the motherboard. Using JRiver and playing bit-perfect PCM to the T+A DAC8 sounds exceptionally good as well. Great for background listening.

 

Despite having 4 fans (and the GTX 1070) in the case, I need to put my ears close to the back of the case in order to hear the sound of the fans spinning. When upsampling to DSD512 and muting my preamp, I can't notice the PC from the listening position. And since I do most of my listening with headphones, noise from the PC is moot.

 

Also, since this is a single-purpose build, I wanted a self-contained server that sits in my listening area. So, the music is accessed internally from the WD Red hard drive, and not from an attached USB drive or over the network from a NAS. I am also using a Dell touch-screen monitor connected to the onboard Display Port output.

 

Other than using Fidelizer Pro, I have done nothing to tweak the BIOS or the OS. Network connection to the DAC is done with a Netgear switch and BJC Belden Cat6 cables.

 

Very happy with my setup now. PCM or DSD, bit-perfect or upsampled to DSD512.

 

My mouth is watering in anticipation of delivery of my computer tomorrow and I will have a very similar setup to you. FINALLY I will be able to hear the DAC the way it is supposed to be heard.

[Priaptor]

FINALLY have the system set up where I will soon be able to make some comparisons.

 

My Falcon NW Tiki with i6700K, 32GB Ram, Samsung 950 Pro M.2 512GB SSD and NVIDIA GTX 1080 running Windows 10 PRO. Yes it is more expensive than DIY setup, which I have done too many times in the past and just didn't have the patience, time or desire this time around and why I went with the TIKI. Also I did some research into Falcon NW and the TIKI really fits what I was looking for and the reports from endusers was excellent.

 

I have the Tiki in my office, running RoonServer + HQP upsampling to DSD512 with Ed's recommended settings networked (wired with Ethernet) with my CAPS ZUMA + JCAT card running AO 2.0 running NAA in my listening room via LH Lightspeed USB cable to the T&A DAC.

 

Yesterday was my first day all setup and all is working fine so after a couple of months of having the T&A, I now hope to get some time before leaving in a couple of days to do some initial comparing to my MSB Diamond Plus with the T&A setup the way it was meant (for those wanting upsampling to DSD512).

 

My first observation listening to the system cold is they are obviously very different DACs. I would like to give it some real listening after some good break in before giving my comments.

 

IMO, the T&A is best served by the method I listed above, although obviously ED has what seems like an amazing server which sounds like a superior setup to what I have, BUT, I have what I have.

 

The MSB Diamond Plus will be fed by the microRendu, which to my ears (preliminary), provides the best sounding interface I have had with my MSB which I know very well as I have had this DAC for close to three years. To my ears, I have found this setup with Roon-->HQP (no upsampling or filtering)-->microRendu may be slightly better than my CAPS ZUMA/JCAT using JRiver. I am still evaluating this.

 

So there are a few variables I need to work out as both the current setup with the Tiki and the microRendu are relatively new I want to optimize both before I report back on my findings.

 

I am extremely happy with the build quality, size and lack of noise of the Tiki. I have owned many computers over the years, both because of my hobbies and work and think this is the best boutique computer company I have ever worked (such as iBuyPower, CyberPowerPC, etc) with much better options than any Dell/HP/Lenovo, etc. I am not sure I could recommend it if one were using it direct to the DAC as there are other issues that someone like Ed can address much better than I can. I was hoping I could do the NAA setup and I can as I tested all resolutions last night using HQP at "poly-sinc-shrt-mp, ASDM7 22579200"

 

As usual, Ted has been extremely helpful with his posts and emails helping me understand and more importantly turning me on to HQP in the last 6 months and DSD in general since my first joining CA.

 

I also have a Chord Mojo, much maligned by the DSD crowd and heralded by others, so I will be doing some comparisons later on with that as well (I am not one who maligns the Mojo and love it showing that there are is room for multiple different tastes if one has an open mind). Incidentally, those who have a Mojo, I just got the newly released case (expensive at 100 bucks) but it is really good. Much better than the HUGO case.

[Priaptor]

Could you clarify one thing? It was my understanding that doing DSD512 upsampling at the computer end and sending that through an NAA to the T+A was only possible through Windows and not Linux. Is that why you are running the CAPS Zuma in the T+A setup while running the microrendu in your MSB setup?

 

Correct.

 

I will however, as per Ted's recommendation to try, try the microRendu as well with the T&A even at its lower upsampling capabilities currently.

 

The reason I am comparing as i illustrate above is to try to compare two disparate DACs, both in terms of price and design, using what I believe based on others recommendation regarding the T&A and my experiences with the MSB represent the best playback experiences of both DACs.

[Priaptor]

Just my observation and preference so far. ASDM5 I find preferable to ASDM7 by a signifant margin. All other settings the same. I tried more (HQP) settings than I care to rehash but believe the T&A is broken in an I have it optimized for my system and so far, preliminarily, am very impressed.

 

Just doing lots of listening before comparing but this DAC is one hell of a performer in my setup and amazing considering the price.

 

Much more to come.

[Priaptor]

Well...I see some here have their panties tied waaaay too tight. It's just a DAC folks, it hasn't given birth to your first born

 

Anyway, I'm glad to see those foaming at the mouth about my post have religiously adopted the idea that there is no such thing as a point of diminishing returns when it comes to DA Conversion.

 

"Hey" says Friend A to Friend B..."Look I just got DAC of the month and it can do DSD 10million. You can't imagine how good it sounds!"

 

Friend B replies..." Hey that's pretty cool, but do you know the original equipment used to record/store most of your favorite albums was only good for 20-20kHZ..at best?"

 

Friend A replies.."Well this things got Filters for days; one of them is bound to somehow extract more content then was recorded to begin with. As a matter of fact, the marketing flyer even says it will lift veils".

 

I'm sure we will see other brands follow suit at some point, if for no other reason but to just say they can do DSD xxxx also. Does it matter? I doubt it.

 

And for the record, I'm well aware my own DAC does DSD128. Which I also think is absurd. Even the better EMM/Meitner models still only did DSD128 until the latest one was released. Does it matter that the new one has DSDxxxx? I doubt it also.

 

You really don't get it do you??

 

If I were you I would learn WHY the DAC does 512DSD and how people have utilized this in conjunction with Jussi's HQPlayer to up-sample for performance purposes. It is not for bragging rights about whose DAC does the highest DSD sampling "even though media exists" at that sample rate.

 

Pretty petulant post from you especially when you are clueless about what and why you are criticizing the T&A. Sometimes people who are clueless should learn to keep their mouths (posts) shut to at least feign some semblance of intelligence.

[Priaptor]

Appears that cjf is just a troll and gets his jollies by being nasty and getting reactions from others.

Hope he proves me wrong.

Until then, I'd recommend not reacting to his posts.

 

You earlier wanted to know about the Falcon NW I purchased. I couldn't be happier. Extremely quiet, powerful and beautifully made. Works like a charm up-sampling the T&A. It is also small and has a tiny amount of fan noise upon starting Roon and then dead quiet.

[Priaptor]

Any chance you can post a screenshot of the load like in this post ?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]27588[/ATTACH]

 

And let us know what filters you're using in HQP.

 

I won't be able to post those for a few weeks. At my vacation home now. Will do when I get home.

 

I am using poly-sinc-shrt-mp and ASDM5. I like ASDM5 better than ASDM7 Bit Rate 22579200

[Priaptor]

Did you have the chance to try the AMSDM7 512+fs specific filter that Miska has added on his latest betas?

 

I have not used his beta as I was under the assumption that there was some issue with one of the betas using in NAA. I just read about that new filter yesterday and want to and will try it when I get home.

 

I am extremely impressed with this DAC. I have had many really good DACs in the past and currently and this is definitely one of the better ones.

[Priaptor]

Anyone heard this DAC and the MSB or EMM or Playback Designs or DCS stacks, you know the spare no expense category, and can comment on a sonic comparison?

 

I've drunk Jussi's Kool-Aid, become a believer in his amazing math and manipulations and wonder how files up converted to DSD512 and played on this DAC compares to the heavy gun hardware solutions to making digital files sound like music.

 

I have owned the EMM DAC2X and currently own an MSB Diamond Plus IV which is currently being upgraded to the V and own the T&A DSD (purchased as a headphone DAC) as well as a Chord Mojo (owned a HUGO).

 

I have never heard the Playback Designs, but have had in my system a Vivaldi and for several months an MSB Analog.

 

Caveat regarding the Analog was that I had it for a demo prior to the new QUAD USB input. My Diamond has the QUAD USB input and was a huge upgrade compared to the previous USB input. Some say their renderer card is even better but I have not heard it.

 

There is no Jussi Kool-Aid. Roon-->HQP-->upsampled to DSD512-->T&A is excellent and excellent value compared to the big DACs you reference. However, when I went back to my MSB I felt it was a significant improvement in musicality, imaging, timbre and neutrality. To me it is the most enjoyable DAC I have ever owned or heard and despite having it over 3 years have yet to hear a DAC I like more and hence why I decided to upgrade it to the new V rather than sell it. I was hoping the T&A upsampled to DSD512 would outperform, to my ears, the MSB but it didn't. To extrapolate to the cheaper MSB Analog is difficult because I heard it with the old USB input BUT compared to the Diamond Plus IV at the time, the Analog while not as good to my ears was definitely a bargain compared to to the Diamond so I would assume with the Quad card or renderer, by extrapolation, would likewise provide be a great "bargain".

 

Not Kool-Aid but to my ears not in the same league as the MSB.

 

Compared to my DAC2X there was such as huge positive difference in favor of the MSB when I compared the products when I was first considering the MSB that I would, from memory, likely give the thumbs up to the T&A.

 

Just my take.

[Priaptor]

just wondering what rate where you running to the msb and was it via usb or renderer?

 

The unit I have has the Quad USB. I use JRiver via my CAPS Zuma or HQP with Roon front end without any upsampling with MicroRendu

[Priaptor]

Ouch! 30000$ for a MSB diammond dac without option . It had to be a lot better ! When it think about the times i had to justify the cost of the T+A to my wife [emoji12]

 

First rule of being an audiophile is never tell the wife the real price.

[Priaptor]

Hahahahaha...not if you want it to pass "customs" inspection.

 

We all know the old joke about the male audiophile's worst nightmare...that he dies and his wifes sells his gear for what HE SAID it cost!

 

MSB Select Dac used, going for $800...buhuhahahahaha!

 

I think you made a Yogiism there.

[Priaptor]

Sorry, meant $600. Saw it, but for some reason one cannot edit posts after they have been posted for a few minutes?

 

So, a $30K DAC doesn't have a strong, well-designed, filtered...USB input? The Quad USB input is a $2K add to the Diamond DAC that doesn't have one.

 

Ted, would try it based upon your recommendation, if I used USB, but still using firewire on Mytek.

 

You can ask Jonathan at MSB but their biggest isolation is how they buffer all bitstreams to their ProI2S board before any processing. This was not the case with their old USB board. Their renderer works the same way. If one used their renderer the MicroRendu would not be needed. Some claim their renderer is better than their Quad USB board. I hope to try it.

[Priaptor]

well, you could for the interconnect ; guess she would hear 24. 95 instead of $ 24 950

 

how a company that sells a pair of interconnects $ 24 950 can be trusted at all ??? SELECT DAC Details

 

just curious : if you get the renderer do you have to go JRiver or does it work with HQP?

 

HQP, to my knowledge will not work with their renderer. To me the jury is out whether using JRiver via DLNA with MicroRendu or HQP without any upsampling and just as a player via NAA with the MicroRendu is better. Also at this time MicroRendu only supports DSD via DoP on the MSB despite MSB having direct DSD capabilities although given the type of DAC the MSB is I am not sure there would be any benefit if it were direct DSD.

[Priaptor]

Who is Yogi???

 

As Jud and others before me have pointed out, Yogi was Yogi Berra, catcher for the NY Yankees, known for his catching ability will go down in history for his amazing malapropism which more often than not, have legitimate meaning.

 

Your post of:

 

"We all know the old joke about the male audiophile's worst nightmare...that he dies and his wifes sells his gear for what HE SAID it cost!"

 

kind of reminded me of something Yogi Berra would say, ie "a dead guys worst nightmare"

 

Just some fun.

[Priaptor]

MSB advertises against DSD to PCM conversion and presents their DSD as even more kosher than delta sigma through their mapping to 1.4 Mhz 24 bits. I would really like to read a regarded opinion (i.e. Miska's !) about this. Their renderer offering NAA capability would make the Analog a DAC I might consider although the $ 24 950 interconnect might shy me from MSB for ever despite the rest of their marketing being rather appealing to me...

convolution of even DSD files makes HQP irreplaceable to me even without any upsampling

 

The only way to know if this DAC is for you is to try it despite all claims.

 

Call Vince at MSB and I am sure he can arrange a demo.

 

While they market to many different geographic and economic strata, over the years I have owned my MSB I have come to appreciate their policies more. They did have a hiccup when introducing their Select series but other than that have been pretty good

 

I have owned my Diamond Plus IV for over 3 years having made one change from standard to QUAD USB and now I am upgrading to the V which includes a new power supply. Not bad for the time span and for me I have yet to hear a DAC that bests the IV I am upgrading from. Point is the 25k IC notwithstanding to jade your opinion their products are definitely worthy of consideration in their price class.

[Priaptor]

Just read the MSB page. I like the optical connections and the overall flexibility/modularity - that is awesome. I do think there is a lot of engineering to justify the price. Would be interesting to see if they lowered price in half if that actually increased sales. It may not. Maybe at 20k they would move a lot of units. (Once you are at 50k, why not go 90?). Like Soundlabs, I spoke to them once and they actually can make an 8k speaker but they enjoy the white-glove customer experience and the relationship and are happy only doing super-high end and engaging with most of their customers directly, even if the 8k speaker would make them a lot more money in the end. Maybe MSB feels the same.

 

As to the RCA cable, I actually think the 25k RCA cable is actually a psychology experiment they are doing in concert with a few University Professors. That would explain it. Maybe they will publish a paper about ABX, subjective vs measurements, purchasing decision making, psycho-acoustics, etc. next year. I look forward to seeing the results of their experiment.

 

(EDIT: Just saw the MSB Analog, much cheaper, starts around 7k, then can add Quad-DSD and Ethernet Renderer - this looks quite good.)

 

Yes the Analog is their "entry level" DAC. While 7k if you want their better power supply it does up the price.

[Priaptor]

Well I would like to resurrect this thread and once again thank Jussi and Ed for turning all of us on to an amazing price point performer.

 

I have returned from my MT hiatu and have had more time to listen to the T&A while my MSB is being upgraded. I can say on my system DSD7 just sucked. I went back to DSD5 and think this is absolutely awesome. Ed's server obviously has different strengths and his overall system is much different than mine but with the same settings except moving to DSD5 I can now fully endorse the T&A as a giant killer.

 

Anyone on the fence on this DAC I can now unequivocally give this my fullest recommendation up sampling to 512

[Priaptor]

First let me preface by saying I think the MSB is he best I have ever heard.

 

However compared to my prior impressions of the T&A (on my system) now that I changed to DSD5 I love this DAC. Very musical. Blows away what I remember of the EMM DAC2X.

 

Pretty incredible at its price point assuming you have a computer you can upsample to 512 DSD.

 

From my perch this is a winner.

[Priaptor]

Thanks, I appreciate your sharing. Have you ever heard the MSB The Analog? How'd you compare it to the T&A? I could buy used for the former if needed to equate the comparison

 

Well first the Analog is really only SE if that makes a difference. It's balanced output is not really balanced.

 

Having said that I never heard the Analog with the new Quad board or renderer or with the better power supply. I had it here for 3 months for a trial before pulling the trigger on the Diamond Plus (3 years ago). However if I had to extrapolate to what it sounded like with the standard USB input to what the Diamond Plus sounded like with the standard USB I would still give the nod to the Analog but the T&A is pretty close and I would much rather a final opinion if I had both to compare.

 

The T&A as I current have it setup is pretty remarkable especially for the $ assuming you have a computer capable of upsampling which needs to be added to the cost if you don't. The other night not so happy with the T&A with DSD7 I tried feeding it straight with JRiver both PCM and DSD without any upsampling and could never recommend it as such. Upsampling to DSD 512 (with DSD5 for me) quite a different story. Once again the lesson to be learned is patience and before giving up.

[Priaptor]

polysync DSD5 is less power hungry ( 27% with i7 6700K) than 31% with polysync ADSM7

and sounds very good ( softer than ADSM7 ?)

 

My bad and apologies.

 

I didn't mean DSD5 I meant ADSM5.

[Priaptor]

ha ok , same needed computer resource than ADSM7 ; can't here any difference between the two !? time to change my speaker or amp

 

Yeah, I am an idiot. Sorry, I hate posting mistakes like that. There is definitely a difference in my system especially when comparing it to the MSB.

[Priaptor]

Thanks Priaptor. Sounds like I'd prefer The Analog, but I don't think I can afford the 'whole caput' w. upgraded PS and Quad board. But to be honest, I'd love to have both here at home to give a personal listen.

 

I understand, trust me. The one thing I can say about my MSB rig is that I have had it for over 3 years and am really happy with it and the company. Despite having for over three years, I haven't heard a DAC I like better. While their products are expensive, they do support upgrade paths that are "reasonable". They had a glitch with the first Select owners, which I think they made good on but other than that they have been able to give their customers good service especially upgrade paths when they do finally upgrade their hardware.

 

Having said the above, the T&A is an awesome unit. Just for reference I have had the original PS Audio (Gen1) DirectStream, the Audio Research DAC8, EMM DAC2X, MSB Diamond Plus IV (currently being upgraded to the Diamond V), Auralic Vega, Chord HUGO replace with the Chord MOJO and now the T&A. I also auditioned the MSB Analog and the dCS Vivaldi (first gen). So my current arsenal is (tomorrow) the MSB V, T&A and Mojo.

 

Set up properly I would give the T&A a thumbs up compared to all but the MSB and dCS. If you ask me if the price of the MSB and dCS is justified based on cost I couldn't say yes BUT if you can afford it and your system is properly setup and can wring out the very best these amazing DACS have to offer, it is a personal decision. While the 4K price tag of the T&A is not cheap (even adding in the price of computer) it is a remarkable deal when compared to the more expensive DACS out there.

 

One last thing. You can start with the Analog with the regular power source and upgrade that should you want at a later date. I think the price of the upgraded power supply is 3K so you can get the base unit I think for around 7K list.