Mytek new dac Brooklyn.

[rayl1234]

As a late comer (just received my unit this morning), my experience was very painless on Win 10, Tidal, etc. I'm glad I got to miss the teething pains! I discovered this thread when trying to confirm my understanding of the MQA indicator as being the dot instead of the icon (the manual has not been updated) without bothering support for a confirmation of something I was pretty sure of based on observation.

 

I have another question that I haven't figured out yet and don't feel it rises to the level to bother support. Does anyone know hat the secondary VU level meter (the bottom one on the Left display and the upper one on the Right display)?

 

Other than it always seems to be lower, I haven't figured out what it indicates.

[rayl1234]

Let me illustrate both the secondary set of VU levels and the blue dot indicating MQA with a picture:

 

[rayl1234]

1 minute ago, John Eaton said:

^^^^^

The top VU is the "Peak" VU indicator, the bottom is the Average VU level.

 

Thanks!!!!

[rayl1234]

1 hour ago, bmeinhard said:

Any chance of getting one of you guys to post a photo of how the other main display (i.e. the one that shows large view of bitrate, sample rate and volume) looks with the 2.36 firmware installed?  TIA!

 

Here you go. The MQA indicator is the blue dot on the lower right.

 

[rayl1234]

5 minutes ago, bmeinhard said:

Thanks much for posting the photos so quickly, jtwrace and rayl1234.  Moving the dot to the left of the MQA indicator is just weird.

 

On the other hand, this approach would work for a color blind user as lack of dot indicates non MQA, though I recall from the manual there is also a mode where MQA is valid but unauthenticated... and that may be distinguished by color only. I don't have such content try.

[rayl1234]

34 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Ha I can try. Btw they are much better on the phone than with email replies. Highly recommend a phone call.

 

I find that true as well. Though I hate to bother people by phone (interrupt driven is very inefficient), I became quite disturbed at not knowing the status of my RMA after 2 wks and picked up the phone -- at least got a report that the unit is on the work table. Email and support ticketing proved to be super slow.

 

(Alas, I am still waiting for the unit, so this tale is still a story in progress... may need to pick up the phone again in a few days. Unfortunately, my enthusiasm for the Brooklyn fades with each passing day as a result. Reserving final judgment pending resolution.)

[rayl1234]

1 hour ago, Em2016 said:

 

What was the issue with your Brooklyn? Only if you don't mind me asking, of course.

 

 

I will post an update when the issue is resolved and not be too critical too early... but it is an obvious hardware failure, not a poor sound issue or something more subject to interpretation...

 

I like supporting innovative vendors and understand that smaller vendors are sometimes stretched, so will offer the benefit of doubt, despite a bit of personal disappointment.

[rayl1234]

On 9/11/2017 at 11:02 AM, Em2016 said:

 

Not a problem. In my previous job I saw even $200k luxury cars come with 0km faults...

 

Things happen in manufacturing (that slip through even the strictest QA/QC) and in shipping. It's how it's resolved that matters most.

 

 

I promised an update after my RMA issue has been resolved, so here it is.

 

The original problem was a broken LED. I received a replacement unit yesterday. Overall, I am satisfied and would definitely buy future products again, though perhaps through different processes (more later).

 

The defect materialized 7 or 8 days after receipt of the unit. (I am guessing it was a bad part and not Mytek's workmanship.)

 

Dealing with the support ticketing system was very slow, perhaps due to time zone differences or perhaps hardware problems (as oppose to use case problems) are an area support is less familiar with. In any case, it took over 7 calendar days to get an RMA issued.

 

The actual RMA process was a bit of a black hole. I don't like to call people (as I know it's more expensive to service telephone calls), but ended up doing so after 2 wks. Part of my anxiety is that I had a new pair of Focals coming in for 30 day demo...

 

An ETA was provided but was missed. Another call resulted in a replacement unit, with which I am happy despite being 3 wks after RMA and 4+ wks after initial problem -- I do love the product and want to see people making good products succeed. However, I wish post-sales support can be improved.

 

I've dealt with many audio vendors and dealers over the years, both on the hifi side and the pro side. Some are exceptional standouts in terms of service (PS Audio, Argosy Console and Vintage King come to mind). Others are clearly strained, unfortunately, so I take it in stride.

 

My one change next time might be to buy through a dealer and making early defects the dealer's problem. This reduces the margin to the manufacturer, but the sale still gets made.  E.g. I know Vintage King distributes for Mytek including the Brooklyn DACs as they are used for both pro mastering chains as well as for hifi... Next time, I may just call my rep at VK instead.

[rayl1234]

Hope this helps others with figuring out when the resistors are needed, etc.

 

Now that I have a unit back, I've made some measurements on the XLR output using analog volume control to help understand how to hook it up to various equipment.

 

The table of measurements below seems to indicate the following interpretation:

 

Volume set at 0 (or bypass) is equivalent to +10 dBu (which is hotter than +4 dBu pro reference, hence the need for resistors, etc. if it's too hot for gear that only takes +4 dBu max input --- but it matches the +10 dBu that is the typical top of the scale on mixer controls, probably reflecting the unit's pro-audio mastering chain heritage).

 

Table of measurements across pins 1&2 (or equivalently 1&3) of ea balanced output for 440Hz sine wave (frequency shouldn't matter):

 

volume set at 0 = 6.8V peak-to-peak

vol -10 = 2.2V p-p

vol -20 = 0.7V p-p

vol -30 = 0.22V p-p

vol -40 = 0.07V p-p

 

One can confirm with a calculator like http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-db-volt.htm (use the left dBu calculator). We see that we get the p-p voltages above with:

 

vol 0 = +10 dBu = 6.93V p-p (a tad short measured on my scope but close enough.... Much closer than +9 dBu which is only 6.2V)

vol -10 = 0 dBu = 2.2V p-p (also a tad short)

vol -20 = -10 dBu = 0.7V p-p (matches)

vol -30 = -20 dBu = 0.22V p-p (matches)

vol -40 = -30 dBu = 0.07V p-p

[rayl1234]

What. The track and at what time? I am thinking I or someone else can try it on Tidal to see if it is a Tidal issue or not...

[rayl1234]

1 hour ago, Morph said:

Hello again,

 

Home now and have had a listen again.

 

Unfortunately the clicking is not just with Tidal MQA. It is also the standard 16/44 as well. the MQA issue persists too.

... (truncated for brevity)

 

My path would be to confirm whether it's the DAC or not.  I can think of 3 non-DAC (or limited to portions of the DAC) areas:

 

1. Source/input method. Sounds like you've tested sources, but did not say whether this included different input methods (USB vs S/PDIF, etc)

2. Output. Try headphones.

3. Power. Try a different power circuit (or maybe a different place like office) with a laptop.

[rayl1234]

1 minute ago, Morph said:

Hello rayl1234 

I'm purely usb here.

Will give headphones a go now.

The power circuit in use is the only viable one in my room but I'll switch plugs around just to try.

 

Thanks for your input

 

Morph

 

USB is interesting... I say that bec with a prior DAC (2 DACs ago), I had inescapable pops (which might be like your cracks, only louder). USB chips have come a long way since and I haven't seen such issues in recent years... Though you've tried different USB sources, I would still feel more comfortable if we can rule out USB.

 

One simple thought might be to change the Buffer Mode from Reliable to Extra Safe as a another test.

 

If it is isolated to USB, there are USB regenerators that can help, e.g. Schiit has one for $99: http://www.schiit.com/products/wyrd  (15 day return policy if it doesn't work out). Back when I had USB issues, these didn't exist and I had to swap around powered USB hubs until I found one that behaved effectively as a clean-up regenerator.

[rayl1234]

7 minutes ago, Morph said:

Ok so I've just put the TQ Silver Diamond USB back into the system and its dropouts and clicks again. Seems it's damaged. Will have to send it off for a fix. That said, it's great to hear both of my 'old' alternatives again, they both give something different to the systems output.

 

Thanks again for your input rayl1234.  Hopefully this is the correct conclusion ( apart from having to get the Silver Diamond repaired! ).

 

Morph

 

Glad it was that simple.  Once I heard that all sources were USB, the memory of my past struggles with USB popping sounds was reawaken....

 

 

[rayl1234]

Back from RMAF and listening at home again -- Does anyone else noticed that on the Windows volume control setting, when using Tidal, the volume control no longer works correctly?  (I am guessing it's a Tidal update in the past few wks as I have not updated Mytek drivers nor Brooklyn firmware.)

 

If I turn the knob on the Brooklyn or change the volume on the PC side (either through OS or Tidal), the volume now jumps around.

 

If I set it to Force volume, it actually works except when you first start Tidal, the volume reverts to max -0 dB.  If you then adjust it down, all works. But the initial adjustment is a pain.

 

I've now set PC volume control to DSBL and am exclusively using the knob to adjust volume.  That's works correctly (of course), but I miss having the mute button on the PC for when a phone call comes in, etc....

[rayl1234]

21 minutes ago, left channel said:

@rayl1234 when you first start Tidal the Brooklyn's volume jumps to maximum? With Tidal set to Exclusive Mode, Force Volume, and Passthrough MQA? That's a potentially ear-splitting bug, worth asking Mytek about directly.

 

The Mytek doc says to uncheck Force Volume -- but that causes the volume to jump back and forth, as if the PC volume and the Mytek volume controls were fighting for the winning setting almost. I can't quite characterize it in words.

 

If I do check Force Volume, it will go to max volume when you first play... so my workaround has been to turn off  amps, start the playback, turn down the volume, then turn on amps.

 

This became too tedious and I now have PC volume control disabled -- i.e. volume control is only through the knob on the Mytek.  But I lose the mute button convenience.

 

This behavior (that is, the jumping which led me to try Force Volume) was not evidenced last month -- but started happening recently. (I haven't used Tidal with Mytek for a few wks on account of preparing for and heading to RMAF.)

[rayl1234]

2 minutes ago, left channel said:

@rayl1234 thanks, I've found the Mytek doc on Tidal and see now that it recommends not using Force Volume. So that's "not a bug, it's a feature". Disregarding that is potentially very dangerous for your ears, so best left the way they recommend.

That still leaves a conflict between the manual's recommended USB volume setting, "Win", and the new problems you're experiencing now, which forced you to switch to "DSBL". Even the Mytek control panel is a problem now? Perhaps this is still worth a discussion with Mytek, as you'll get nowhere asking Tidal.

I'd bet most of us here have long been accustomed to never touching any computer volume control, but you should have the option if you want it. I'm still considering the Brooklyn, but playing around with a cheaper MQA DAC for now, a little box from Pro-Ject which just so happens to include a mute feature: just press on the volume knob. Perhaps a feature request for the Brooklyn++?

 

I concede that using Force Volume was an attempted workaround for the jumping around issue that started recently and not the documented path... just exploring alternatives.

 

I am asking the question here to see if others have experienced the same issue to gather background info, though I think the path of least resistance may be to just get a headphone plug and use that as a mute switch (as plugging in headphone mutes speakers).

 

 

[rayl1234]

Just now, mumsoft said:

Can't you just switch the input, say from USB to AES/EBU or further with the remote?

 

Marc

 

I prefer to have Volume selected as that's the primary control desired.  One would need to deselect Volume, navigate over the input source, select that, and change it (by which time, one could've hit enough volume down presses).

 

 

[rayl1234]

1 hour ago, mumsoft said:

 

Maybe I don't get it. With the remote, one has to press left or right for another source. Then adjust the volume (press down), and go back to the desired input with right or left.

Compared to fitting a headphone, it seems to me less cumbersome. But, as said, maybe I don't understand. I have no USB-sources here. Also no Tidal.

 

Marc

 

Ah ha!  Excellent suggestion. I've always kept my Brooklyn in the detailed settings mode, not in the simplified display mode.  But I can hit Menu, then left/right to switch input to mute.... and take a bit longer to return it to my preferred mode to unmute.

[rayl1234]

1 minute ago, BigGuy said:

Cannot answer since I have the Manhattan 2 tho' a friend has the Brooklyn.

 

In my experience, Mytek has been very good about trade-ins but an upgrade may just not be possible geography-wise.

 

I am guessing the board is a significant % of the cost for the Brooklyn... unlike the Manhattan where the margins are larger... Hence an upgrade is more difficult to offer.

[rayl1234]

16 minutes ago, Breen Lyden said:

Anyone having any problems with the new Windows Fall creators update?  After the update I can't get my Brooklyn to play Tidal Masters.  I've tried EVERYTHING!  Please help

 

I haven't upgraded but am curious to know how the problem shows up?  e,g, is it playing just not with MQA?

[rayl1234]

1 hour ago, lucretius said:

 

Wow.  The Brooklyn DAC (no plus) has only these filters for PCM:

• MPH (Minimum Phase)
• SR (Slow Roll-Off)
• FR (Fast Roll-Off)

It's not clear whether SR and FR are minimum phase or linear phase.

 

The additional filters are from the chip upgrade. Alas, ESS does not make its info public... but I did find graphs of the filters in:

 

 

 

I am not familiar with how they sound relative to one another. I keep the default settings. 

[rayl1234]

27 minutes ago, BigGuy said:

Thanks, exdmd!

From the manual only 5 of the 7 frequency response curves are shown...the FRMP and SRMP are not.

 

1) Not sure how the Minimum Phase curves would compare to the Linear Phase?!

 

2) At first glance the SRLP looks the "cleanest" subjectively but have no idea if that is relevant!?

 

The SRLP looks like the frequency response is more extended until one notices that the horizontal scale is different from the other four!

 

Do we have a filter meister out there who can  comment on the points above?

 Am guessing the freq response is the same. Only phase differs. 

[rayl1234]

2 minutes ago, exdmd said:

Note that the Brooklyn DAC+ does not use the ES9038PRO DAC but instead the ES9028PRO according to the press release.

Good catch but am going to guess that curves are same but 9038 adds further improvements. 

[rayl1234]

4 hours ago, BigGuy said:

Yes, "linear" vs "minimum"...but what does that mean?  Can you enlighten us further on what the difference is?

 

What about the relative "cleanliness" of the SRLP response vs the others?

 

Trying to understand the graphical differences in the frequency responses vs what we might hear.

 

A "minimum phase" system is one that changes the phase by the minimum amount at a given frequency -- if you change the amplitude at a given frequency, this can only be done with some amount of phase change.  A minimum phase system is one that minimizes it. Thus, the actual phase change can be calculated if you know the frequency and attenuation (via a formula).

 

The ramification of this is that at different frequencies, the phase change will be different.  I am not going to take a side on this argument, but one side says that's bad -- the other side says studies show that phase change cannot generally be heard.

 

A "linear phase" system maintains the phase -- but how can it do this?  Well, by taking the maximum phase change across all frequencies and forcing that same phase change across all frequencies -- thus, there is no relative phase change from one frequency to another.  In order to do this, the filter must be a filter that can look into the future -- this is achieved by delaying the output.  This is referred to as "pre-ringing."

 

Again, I am not going to take a side on whether pre-ringing is good or is bad in this context.

 

I am more willing to make comments in other contexts, e.g. a "perfect" filter requires infinite pre-ringing, but short of a close-to-perfect filter (very long filter), I don't know what to say about pre-ringing. Also room correction and minimum phase are not incompatible bec by definition, all real analog systems (i.e. your room) will only impose minimum phase changes, so a correction to those effects will only work to restore original phase (as closely as your correction gets)....  

 

I will also say a few words on why filtering is necessary for analog reconstruction. When you have a digital sample, in the frequency domain, the signal is replicated once every multiple of the sampling rate. Thus when converting to analog, you only one to convert one instance -- the one centered at 0 Hz up to 1/2 the sampling rate.

[rayl1234]

1 hour ago, mumsoft said:

If Mytek can find some time to do a little, tiny update to the current firmware of the original Brooklyn, that is: show the current source when powered up... and then, come with the promised Linux version of the Control Panel: o, I would love that.

 

I recall seeing somewhere that Michal is on a panel at Capital Audiofest.  Not a show I attend, but you may want to go heckle! :-)