First multi-channel DSD playback solution with Mytek!

[ted_b]

How about sitting in your listening position, browsing jremote, and pulling up a pure native 5.1 DSD rip of Beck-Sea Change, for playback in native DSD. And no, I don't have a Sonoma workstation sitting here! YES!!

 

Well, I mentioned in a few threads that I was getting ready to prototype a possible 5.1 pure DSD playback setup. The thought of using J River and jremote to browse a multichannel catalog that includes native DSD 5.1 (and 3.0, etc) is a 2013 goal of mine.

 

Well..today marks the first huge step in that goal!

 

Mytek delivered my third Mytek Stereo 192 DSD DAC yesterday, along with a simple 4-port USB hub. My goal for this weekend coming up was to simply get something working, and I assumed it would be a lot of trial and error..even though Michal and Chebon (Mytek) had given me pretty good instructions going in.

 

Matt at J River had just released a beta version of JRMC that fixed a couple idiosyncrasies in 5.0 vs 5.1 playback, so i downloaded 18.0131, made sure Mytek's 133.1 Windows ASIO driver was loaded on my CAPS V2+ and hooked up the USB hub. I used some decent (and awful generic) USB cables to cobble together a three-port setup, and used the SOtM card to drive it (directly powered by the iFi). I thought the hub would need power but it didn't. The USBPAL driver screen indicates what goes where (hint: the oldest serial number gets main lf/rf, the next gets c/sw and the newest DAC gets ls/rs). I guessed right the first time! Go figure.

 

I use a tried-and-true analog multichannel preamp (Sony TAP-9000ES) for volume and analog channel trimming (so far done via ear only; I will drag out the Rat Shack digital SPL meter tonight). I created a MCh DSF parent folder, moved a few 5.1 DSF albums into it and had J Remote add the parent in auto-import. Voila. (My next step is to create a multichannel view and use it in jremote; the view rule will be simple..."channels greater than 2"). One of the DSF folders is the Pentatone sampler that includes test tones and channel id tracks.

 

First up, after confirming channels and doing simple trims, was Beck-Sea Change, a tremendous surround sound album. The clarity, tone, dynamics and deep bass of this thing, heard 1000 times before, was startling. The Mytek trio blew away (yes blew away) the Oppo 83SE in this first test. And channel trims weren't even done yet. Wow!

 

Stay tuned for more updates.

 

Here's what the setup looks like (stacked Myteks next to my CAPS V2+. The other thing is simply a gigabit ethernet switch, so my 2 channel setup would still have ethernet).

 

[ted_b]

Update:

Myteks are all stock. They were set for bypass volume. J River was setup for ASIO and bitstream "DSD" (not "DoP"). Rebooted initially as one of the DACS wasn't seeing the CAPS, and J River was having issues. Reboot took care of everything. I do not have Fidelizer running currently. Win 8 is un-tweaked currently (I've used Fidelizer to do that so far, short of a good list of changes). ISO's were extracted using "extract DST DSF multichannel.bat" and I appended each DSF multichannel album name with "(DSD MCH)" to intially differentiate from its DSD stereo counterpart.. As i said earlier, I will simply make a mch view that jremote will also use.

 

Oh, the DSF 5.1 folders are freaking huge.

[ted_b]

Hello, looks like a very cool project but I must ask....Why the need for X 3 Myteks? Probably a dumb questions but couldn't figure it out at first glance.

 

Yes, these DACS are the stock 2 channel Stereo 192 DACS, so to do 5.1 (i.e 6 channels of surround) one needs 3 DACS.

[ted_b]

Ted, sounds cool for multi-channel DSD.

 

A question if I may; is this not more <b>First multi-channel DSD playback solution with <i>J.River</i></b>. You say the Mytek's are stock so is there any reason this wouldn't work with alternative DSD DACs?

 

Eloise

 

Eloise, good question. I assume the magic is the ASIO driver coordinating channel mapping and the clock synch stuff. No other under $5k DSD-capable DAC mfg has stepped up to this idea though (Playback Designs has always touted stacked PDs but with a sort of proprietary link maybe?, at different $$ of course). Funny, the driver is the one they've had on the their site since almost 12 months ago (v1.33.10).

 

Are there problems with clock shifting among the 3 units?

 

I'm not aware of any...so far. We are getting a little intermittent light clicks in the rear channel DAC on only certain occasions, esp in pause mode, but working through it. I don't even have all 3 on the same firmware yet.

[ted_b]

Erik,

Thanks for the nice comments.

 

First, I am not technical enough to say what the ASIO driver is truly doing behind the scenes but it is obvious that it is the traffic cop for the channel mapping. Looking at the ASIO in and out, the channels are mapped there (and I knew ahead of time that it maps based on DAC serial number, so I ran my cables as such, and guessed right). Each DAC only deals with its channel pair. For 3.0 RCA Living Stereo extractions I'm not sure if the third DAC even sees a signal...dunno. will try later.

 

Second, PCM works perfectly (listened to Donald Fagen-Kamakiriad 24/96 DVD-A 5.1 rip..WOW). And I repeat, I have not tweaked this thing at all yet (two generic USB cables, etc).

 

Third, yes native DSD64 cannot be DSP'd so it is very advantageous that I have an almost perfect room acoustically (thanks Jeff Hedback, Ethan Winer, etc), have my identical transducers spaced in a ITU setup (i.e i don't need bass management or channel delays, just trims done in the analog world, and LFE DSP'd for the room via SMS-1). Maybe Miska or others will chime in on what DSD128 could do to remedy this non-DSP issue for others.

 

Finally, there is no way on Gods green earth that I am going to convert this wonderous native DSD sound to PCM (I hate DSD-to-PCM conversions). I have no need to do any DSP, and I believe my lowly TAP-9000ES is as transparent as I need for this application. No, I don't use it for 2 channel...but I do use a two channel preamp for that setup (I've posted ad nauseum about Mytek's bypass vs remote volume, and about my Concert Fidelity CF-080). Do I have the best cables and power cords in this cobbled together setup so far? No. But once all the bugs are worked out I will begin to assess what i need.

 

Yes, it is not yet ready for those with non-serious surround setups, or that love to fiddle with DSP...but as I said, PCM works fine so go for it.

 

Edit: you are exactly right on the CAPS V2+ horsepower; it wasn't meant for DSP or maybe even multichannel. My plans are to build a very simple more powerful CAPS for multichannel..not sure what is though. But I don't think I want my 2 channel setup always going through a USB hub, and yet I want my multichannel setup to use the SOtM if possible. So that means a second mch CAPS.

[ted_b]

Can you describe as best you can, the difference between this Comp-audio DSD MCH playback and the same disc played back thru a MCH HT amp?

 

What different dimensionality comes into play?

 

Norman, there is just more of everything going on. The details are especially improved, but then that leads to better air and separation, more extended harmonics, better imaging (especially front to back) and the lower frequencies feel like they are tighter, hence more musical and, if available, go to 20hz rather than 30 or 40 with disc playback (i.e the last example is less what is heard and more what is felt, and I don't mean bombastic or boomy).

[ted_b]

Can you describe as best you can, the difference between this Comp-audio DSD MCH playback and the same disc played back thru a MCH HT amp?

 

What different dimensionality comes into play?

 

Norman,

One more aspect of this setup that rocks it over the disc/HT amp setup:

convenience! Sitting in my listening chair, browsing my mutlichannel view in jremote and picking an SACD or DVD-A, or just tracks, at my leisure. Sound familiar?

[ted_b]

Erik,

I found the volume control in the Mytek (and in most, not all, remote volume DACs) to be quite compromised (vs bypass mode) even compared to something like the Sony analog preamp. Also, the Sony gives me 5.1 HT bypass (i.e sending fronts, center and sub from the AVR that processes 7.1 HDMi movie soundtracks using separate amps and speakers for sides and surrounds) and multi-5.1 source selection (probably not long term as I won't use the Oppo analogs anymore). BUT, I hear ya when you say that a mch Bent TAP would be nice....it's tough enough to find another one, though, let alone two more. And John is doing less and less with parts lately i think (and I'm not DIY). I am floored that an EMM Switchman was compromised.

 

Ain't it fun.

[ted_b]

LoL

 

Got that...and sonically? Does the Dac equation carry over times 5.1 in the diskless world?

 

Answered in earlier post.

[ted_b]

Are you referring to the analog VC or the digital VC or both?

 

Analog really. I haven't much played with the digital one. 2 year ago, when I first got the Mytek, I did, but not since.

[ted_b]

Following all this, I've missed something in all the excitement...

 

Ted are you simply selecting .iso's in JRiver and hitting "play"... or having to pull out individual tracks to select?

 

Also with all these rumours swirling around of multichannel DSD DAC's being developed, are we to assume they"ll need proprietry drivers as well? And will only work with JRiver? I'm also assuming there is a zero chance of all this happening under OSX anytime soon. Or will JRiver for Mac offer something here?

 

Wap, you might want to reread my post. I give specific examples of DSF extraction and even mention the specific bat file I am using! No, it ain't ISO's. Individual song files allow for better browsing, playlists, flexibility, etc..at least in my world.

 

I have no idea what the future or swirling rumors are, Wap. But whatever they are I doubt they will be so restrictive as to only work with one software player. This thread is a proof of concept, not a statement that one must use J River. I do, and I applaud Matt and company for being on the bleeding edge of this..but I can't see why this wouldn't be easily possible in OSX with future versions of PM, Audirvana and J River.

[ted_b]

All of this is great. Build a good quality 2 ch dac and then use some external device and software to playback multichannel. That way you can start stereo and when you want multichannel just add more dacs.

 

It is more practical for the manufacturer as well since they would only design a stereo DAC instead of a stereo and multichannel one.

 

This is a step in the right direction

 

Yes, and for those 3 channel fans who want to hear things like RCA Living Stereo 3.0 or Nat King Cole (AP) reissues on DSD you get one addtl Mytek and good to go. The USB hub could be made with decent resonable DH Labs, etc USB cable and packaged so as to not look DIY.

 

Jesus, to answer your question...I do not know why I am using a USB hub instead of the numerous USB outs on the Intel mb, but am kinda glad all is running through the SOtM card. I assume the USB hub ensures one USB bus?

[ted_b]

Is it possible to make the "chain" using the firewire?

 

Esprit,

since this report thread of mine has gone off into tangents I am not sure if you are asking about the Mytek stack, or some other set of DACS. If Mytek, then no, not currently. The ASIO driver is the magic here.

[ted_b]

Ted

 

So for the Mytek stack its usb only and not firewire because its the ASIO drivers that do do the clever spliting of the channels, but does ASIO drivers mean that its Windows only also and not Mac? Did the drivers get modified by Mytek to make it all work? You seem to imply that f/w is coming, but are Mac based drivers coming too?

 

Thanks

 

Paul

 

No idea if MAc is coming. J River is required right now, so yes Windows ASIO and USB is required.

[ted_b]

Got my second Mytek installed today so I could run a 2.2 system. Just as Ted explained it was fairly simple to configure with a simple USB hub. Still got lots of tweaking to do with JRiver but so far I'm happy that I have a great way to integrate my bass all within JRiver. If you have any configuration pointers, shoot them my way. Thanks Ted for the break-through idea.

 

 

David

 

Great to hear!

 

But gang, although I will take full credit for being the first of us to try this, I will NOT take credit for the idea. It was Michal, Chebon and the rest of the Mytek gang that came up with it. They just asked me to try it out and report on it. There are other beta testers out there, now, too...I'm sure we'll hear from them soon enough.

[ted_b]

For my 2.2 setup with 2 Myteks would you expect to see a difference in the device configurations?

 

Anyone know the difference or what I need to do differently? Couple pics of the 2:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4375[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]4376[/ATTACH]

 

I don't really know what I'm looking for. Normally 2 Myteks would give you l/f and c/lfe (but that's for a multichannel input). I didn't realize you are simply trying to do 2 channel with 2 subs. I can't help you there; my setup (and thread) was ALL about multichannel. Sorry. What makes you think 2 Myteks are needed to split subs?

[ted_b]

Not sure; you got me there. It seems, though, you are having issues and posted some pictures of your drivers. What's the issue?

[ted_b]

The USB ASIO driver does not care whether its a preamp or mastering version; same USB, same outputs. But...what I documented above was that the USB driver will give the fronts (left and right) to the DAC with the oldest serial number, and then the center/LFE channels to the next newest DAC (and if a third DAC, it would be the newest s/n and get surround left/right).

[ted_b]

I'm just curious, do you use word-clock or how the sample clocks are synchronized between units? IOW, which unit has the master clock?

 

Miska, it's handled by the ASIO driver (USBMLink) and likely DAC1.

 

I repeat what I first started this thread off with: three DACs, a USB hub, a knowledge of the serial numbers in order to cable the channels correctly, and a pre-beta release of J River (was 130, now using 138)...PERIOD!

 

I helped David get his Myteks setup for stereo with stereo subs. With JRiver you have to use 4 channel output for use with two Myteks. I was assuming that channels 3 & 4 were the center/LFE channels, but actually channels 3 & 4 are the surround left and right channels when JRiver is in 4 channel mode. I'm looking forward to actually hearing his system in April.

 

David is asking for help here, so it sounds like all is not done. Regardless, my setup and instructions are about multichannel, not stereo with split subs. If you use the correct J River and follow my directions you can do multichannel as I did. For a 3.0 or 3.1 setup, it would not mimic yours, Mojave, at least not well enough for John I don't think.

[ted_b]

Ted,

 

Thanks for your explanation. As for the channel assignment, what makes it the way that the channel assignment is decided by the serial number, USBMLink, Mytek, or JRiver?

 

I'm wondering is it possible through some future update to make the channel assignment more flexible and could be manually set up case by case. Otherwise, I might have to ask my local dealer to sell me an older Master Version for the FR and FL channel playback....

 

John, remember this is a prototype. The channel cop is in the ASIO driver, and this will be something that the user can manipulate (as you point out) once this is a done deal. Everything, right now, is just testing. For example, I am, this weekend, testing some new beta Mytek firmware and ASIO drivers, with wordclock synch cabling, for Mytek feedback. Trying to scrounge up a couple good 75 ohm RCA-to-BNC connectors I have around here, as only one of my digital spdifs have it.

 

By the way, if you bought a new Mytek, your current one would become the fronts in this example, of course.

[ted_b]

The sonics have taken steps forward with these latest tests. Why? Well, as I explained (poorly) earlier the Mytek stack has been relying on ASIO and the fact that each DAC's clock is of the same make/model to stay within reasonable synch. With this weekends advent of new test firmware and new ASIO drivers we have stepped it up a few notches by also physically synching the clocks (set DAC1 as internal synch, and DACs 2 and 3 as word clock, use 2 inexpensive .5M BNC cables from wrd clock out of DAC1 into DAC2, and then out to DAC3). Miska will be happy.

 

The sonics are amazing right now, with a much tighter set of lower frequencies, and a crisp (but not brittle) and open top end. We need to work out some playback issues but all is good.

[ted_b]

Ted,

 

when playing dsd in dop mode, what is the clock frequence sent among the mytek 192s?

 

John,

First off, it's not DoP its direct DSD via ASIO. Second, there is no frequency setting, just internal synch or word clock. Third, the firmware that allows this (word clock in USB2) is unreleased so far.

[ted_b]

Ted,

 

You're definitely right. Should be ASIO not Dop....my bad...^^

And are you implying that I can look forward to the release of the the firmware to enable external word clock in USB2?

 

No, just a reminder that you need to ask for them (firmware AND driver needed); they're not released yet. But others have reported on the stereo thread that they got them by asking. I have no approval to forward you mine, however.

[ted_b]

Ted,

 

How did the Mytek MCH demo go at the Chicago show?

 

Russ, it went great, thanks. We got a lot of good feedback. Boy those Sony AR2s are nice speakers.

[ted_b]

What 5.1 DSD files did you choose to demo?

 

I provided them a boatload of ISOs and they played whatever was asked for. The demo tracks were things like Depeche Mode - Personal Jesus (Violator) , Keith Greeninger - Looking For a Home (ESE Collection), Pink Floyd (anything), Beck Sea Change.