HQPlayer's Network Audio Adapter

[YashN]

Ok, so this should work, right?

 

Mac OS X Mavericks running HQ Player -> Ethernet -> NAA on Raspbian with NAD -> USB -> DAC

 

I can't find the NAA in this configuration.

 

Ethernet cable is a normal one, not a cross-cable, correct?

 

Upcoming NAA 3.x will allow DSD512 with iDSD Micro. HQPlayer can be running on any OS, only the NAA matters.

[YashN]

Thanks a lot, Superdad, it seems this was the only piece missing.

 

On the other hand, my iMac is already my router currently, but it is sharing the Ethernet through Wi-Fi, so what I did before was to remove the modem connection, and then connect an Ethernet cable to the Raspi.

 

Which reminds me that I needed a new Network location to be able to hack my Linksys router. Looks like I would need to do that here as well.

 

You will have to go through an Ethernet switch and/or router. HQP desktop won't find the NAA on the network unless there is a DNServer running. (I asked Miska about this again in post #192 above; Hopefully he is planning to allow manual IP address entry--on player side--to tell it what address to look at for an NAA.)

[YashN]

No luck either getting it to work between my Core 2 Duo iMac on Mavericks and the Raspi as NAA.

 

Maybe an issue in configuring the DHCP/DNS? Haven't tried doing it manually but thanks for the info.

And I never had any luck with the image Miska gave me (at the beginning of 2014) on my 2010 Core 2 Duo mini. Only when I upgraded to i5/i7 minis (2011/12/14) was I able to get NAA working on a Mac.

[YashN]

Based on what Alex mentioned for DHCP, I checked running processes on my Mac: it seems the process which is responsible for DHCP was already running. Maybe I have a configuration issue that could be solved between Mac OS X -> Raspbian NAA but for now, it can't find the NAA.

 

I probably will try again.

 

I even installed a DNS Server in the Ubuntu HQP PC and checked that it worked well and HQP still does not find the NAA when direct-connecting both PCs so DNS does not seem to be the problem.

 

Any other idea?

[YashN]

Well, per Miska--ya' know, the guy who wrote the program :

 

Yeah, but the kid's desperate to show he is 'contributing' something... surely, he knows better than Miska who actually wrote HQ Player and the Network Audio Daemon...

 

:P :P

[YashN]

It would also be a total waste of my time...

 

Much rather listen to native Quad-rate DSD instead :P

 

That trying to outdo each other with regard to discourtesy does neither of you any credit, I would sincerely hope.

[YashN]

P.S. I wish both you and YashN would knock off the petty stuff. Really.

 

I have him on my ignore list like prot and a couple of others on the same level (ignorant and vulgar), but on the other hand, if you keep feeding them, I can see your replies because of course, I'd never put you on ignore (or John or Miska, or other good and knowledgeable folks).

 

So don't feed the trolls...

[YashN]

Not sure if these have been covered completely elsewhere on the forum but here are a few of my questions for the NAA setup:

 

1. Can I use Mac OS X as NAA? I saw Geoff mention easy switching of HQPlayer from Desktop to NAA mode just today or yesterday.

 

2. There are updated Linux images and other files for native DSD streaming support with XMOS. Can I use these on a Lubuntu 32-bit install? Can't find the install instructions again, a centralised FAQ on the Signalyst website would be helpful.

 

3. Should the idea of using a RaspberryPi as NAA with support for native DSD streaming be abandoned?

 

4. Is using an NAA through Wi-Fi possible? Not recommended? Is wired Ethernet the only way or the best way?

 

Thanks.

[YashN]

That is not a very nice comment. Johan has been trying a lot to help me with my hqp-naa issues and I believe that he is right:

 

I guess you haven't seen his comments and replies when I provided him the way to find more information about what Superdad and John Swenson are currently building as one of their next product?

 

Suit yourself.

[YashN]

I had similar issues to yours that you mentioned in another thread, Superdad, namely not finding the NAA with Core 2 Duo Mac OS X. Currently, I have no way of trying with updated hardware unless I confiscate the gf's shiny MacBook Air to tinker with, so for now I'll leave it at using my oldish Macs.

 

Another layer (ah ah ah) of complexity for me is that I actually hacked my router: last summer I hacked it with an open-source firmware so that I could use it as a Wi-Fi-to-Wi-Fi extender bridge, allowing the Wi-Fi from my iMac to be extend into the garden so that I can use my laptop there (fun).

 

This works well, but.... there are a few caveats:

 

Since the Linksys is now doing Wi-Fi-to-Wi-Fi, one antenna gets part of the full bandwidth, and the other, the other part of the bandwidth. In other words, although my music is on a smb share from my iMac, any computer accessing it through my hacked router now only has half bandwidth to play with.

 

Results: I can still stream through this router anything up to DSD128 and play it natively on a lowly P4 PC with Win and Foobar2000. DSD256 stutters, drops out (possibly only bandwidth related, possibly a combination of CPU + bandwidth).

 

Additionally, some features have had to be disabled in the router as bridge to enable the new setup, so I may need to go back and check that regarding multi-cast and so on...

 

Now, probably NAA is wired Ethernet only, so this is bound to fail with Wi-Fi anyhow if it's the case.

 

But the reality is: if I now want to get the router connected for NAA, I'll have to re-configure the router, and thereby lose the Wi-Fi bridge for now.

 

I might do this as for now I won't be using the Wi-Fi extender functionality much until spring is back and it's fun to be in the garden (totally white currently).

 

There seems to be some fishy things with Mac OS X Mavericks regarding network location configurations: in case of duplicating a location, if a bridge within it is removed or disabled for some reason, then the other location suffers.

 

Technically, since the iMac + Mac OS X Mavericks has bootpd/DHCP/DNS and so on, shouldn't a direct Ethernet connection between the iMac and an NAA work?

 

My ADSL router is slow at handing DHCP lease addresses to my Cisco switch, so I have to connect any NAA computer to the ADSL modem/router in order for my desktop player (OS X version) to find/recognize it. I tried a bunch of things to make my desktop Mac into a DHCP/DNS router (am able to do so), but the OS X version never finds my NAA connected either to Cisco switch or direct to Mac EN port (the latter being my greatest desire since I already find better SQ with my Mac-to-Mac setup (with shared network drive on desktop Mac). That is partially why I have not been using HQP with NAA (just as player on modded, headless mini).

 

So if Miska's comment means that HQP 3.6.x is going to allow direct input of IP address (easy to see at boot time of NAA--even the text-only optimized Linux/NAA images for ARM and Intel from Miska--the lease IP shows in the last lines of the boot before the prompt), then that would be VERY good news for me and others who have been frustrated to date with NAA discovery

[YashN]

I had asked him if I needed to install updated Kernel or libasound2 packages to support DSD on Linux for HQPlayer and below is his response. My DAC only does 128bit DSD so it did not apply to me.

 

"Unless you have iFi or Marantz DAC, or DIYINHK interface, you don't need to install those packages. Both iFi and Marantz also work without those, but it open up support for DSD256 on iDSD Nano and DSD512 on iDSD Micro."

 

Hey shadowlight, thanks. This I know, and if you've seen my sig and posts, I have an iFi iDSD Nano which has the XMOS interface/uC as well as the upgraded firmware from iFi, so it can do native streaming of DSD256.

 

Already tried that with an old PC / WIN 32 with Foobar2000 and Yarlung Records' tracks. Absolutely amazing!

 

So now, what's left is testing HQ Player + NAA + native streaming DSD256.

 

As for your question related to NAA through Wi-Fi I am running that setup but my wi-fi setup is around 802.11ac and I no issues so far. Installing xubuntu and NAA on the Lenovo i3 was quick and easy. Not sure about how easy it is to install it on RaspberryPi. I rather be listening to music instead of mucking around with installation :-)

 

Good to know. I may need to do something here with the router for bandwidth as well.

 

But the question remains: I have an old PC with 32-bits only. Managed to install Ubuntu 14, then the Lubuntu distro and desktop (otherwise it's too slow it's unusable...). Now, the requisite realtime kernel patches as well as libasound2 (any other thing, I can't remember and actually can't find the instructions again), can they be installed on this 32-bit setup or not?

 

If they can, I will then be able to do one or two things, like using a special mpd to play native streaming DSD256, and test HQ Player from Mac OS X to this Linux PC as NAA. Far from ideal, but at least we get some isolation from the server computer and its disk drive and electrical activity.

[YashN]

the various versions of NAA only run in various Linux versions. No Mac OSX or Win :-(

 

Tried setting up the MBP with the latest Ubuntu and had a lot of issues doing it, like the MBP overheating and even shutting down with LiveCDs and USB key. My MBP already overheats sometimes so could be part of the issue.

 

Also say that a lot of older MBPs are only known to be working with older distributions, like Precise Pangolin (~ v12)...

 

So I've pretty much abandoned that hope for now.

 

Installation on a old DELL PC that my gf had went without issues, except for the fact that Unity drags it down greatly! Lubuntu is fine though.

[YashN]

Had surprisingly very good results with a Surface Pro 3 connected over WiFi to LAN where a SOTM SMS 100 was hooked up to with CAT5. Sounded better than a CAT5 wired Mac Pro Yosemite HQP playing to the same SOTM SMS-100

 

Interesting results, EuroDriver, and that's also why I would like to try with Wi-Fi if I can.

 

Once I get the HQP + NAA thing going, I can then compare a few different setups to my the sweet spot in my rig and share the findings with others.

[YashN]

Yes, and if you reply to the trolls, they reply back, and hence waste all of our time including yours. What I am telling you (until you realise how they are): is to avoid them like the plague, then maybe we can all get back to the more interesting stuff at hand like getting the NAA working in our system.

 

Don't put Johan, 'knowledgeable' and me in the same bundle, thanks. Guy was looking for more info after Superdad said he couldn't write more, I pointed to him where to find the info, and he was dismissive, insulting and vulgar. Couldn't even take the time to read an understand John Swenson. Ignore List, Case closed.

 

Hopefully, I have more interesting stuff to share soon. Not sure I can finish that NAA setup as I have some particulars in my setup, old computers being one of them and not the least.

 

Shoemakers are the worst shod...

 

In the meantime, I did manage to get the native DSD256 streaming ready. Another thread soon perhaps as I get set for some critical listening.

 

What I will say (then I'll shut up about this), and take it for whatever it's worth, is that (1) as Superdad hinted, the back-and-forth wastes *our* time; (2) as victor said, Johann and you are both knowledgeable and helpful forum members, and we would all be delighted to see more of that knowledgeable and helpful stuff from both of you.

[YashN]

Yes, if I can, I'd like to do that. The purpose is to be able to isolate from the server and the Disk and test HQ Player in client-server mode.

 

I know that with GUI and such it's not as ideal, but Lubuntu 32-bit is all I have at the moment, apart from Raspbian on ARM. 32-bit Windows is not supported.

 

The O-Droid is on my mind as potential test-bed for the NAA as well but resources are tight as I would like to repair and DIY a couple of things as well.

 

Are you planning to use the 32-bit system strictly as a NAA/MPD. For NAA you do not need any of the desktop management options so you could potentially strip it down even further but uninstalling unnecessary packages/services which will free up some additional resources.

 

Once I have all the configuration working I plan to rebuild the NAA starting with network install of ubuntu server 14.04, which will have bare bone setup just for NAA

[YashN]

Look what we got working today!

 

 

I had to put my hacked Linksys router to default settings so that it's not working as a Wi-Fi-to-Wi-Fi bridge but as a normal router, connected everything, launched NAD on the Yosemite Laptop (Core 2 Duo), launched HQP on the iMac (Core 2 Duo), selected Network Audio Device and then the iFi.

 

I thought the iMac would be down on its knees, but with poly-sinc-mp-2s and real-time up-conversion, I get an average of 125% on the iMac, and NAD solidly does 2.5% on the laptop.

 

Listening to Depeche Mode's 'Two-Minute Warning' in real-time 48kHz up-conversion to DSD128 while writing this.

 

Solid work, Miska. Well done!

[YashN]

IMHO a Win NAA should be very slim, minimum memory footstep, low latency, low power usage, headless, with only ethernet and USB optimised. I see only two real alternatives:

and a slim cMP XP based system with only 10 processes and 3 services active.

 

Can't do XP as NAA if I'm not mistaken.

 

As for VM with Ubuntu on Mac OS X, I tried this but I am getting "ALSA backend uninitialized' on launching networkaudiod. What am I doing wrong?

[YashN]

One way is to install Ubuntu Trusty or Debian Jessie on a USB memory stick, then you don't need to modify anything on the Mac HDD.

 

Already tried this many times around 5 weeks ago to no avail: there is a big issue with USB stick Linux and (some?) MacBooks: they rapidly overheat and completely shutdown (right on first boot of the USB stick). This is on the Ubuntu Wiki so I am not the only one with this rather odd problem.

 

So, let's assume for a while that I do manage to launch Linux from the USB stick and come to exactly the same issue, i.e. "ALSA backend uninitialized". What could be the problem and what should I try to solve it?

 

That said, when I tried the USB installs, I tried the latest Ubuntu, then quite an old one (I think 12.x) then also tried Lubuntu. So, I never tried with the minimal server install on the USB stick, although I did use the minimal server install on the VM.

[YashN]

No issue with Wi-Fi NAA detection but some with playback (some stuttering probably related to bandwidth or the iFi losing sync - actually the iFi's LED flashes all the colors in rapid succession during the stuttering) from my router (Linksys running DD-WRT), and the two computers connected to it via Ethernet: iMac running Mavericks and HQ Player latest evaluation, MBP running Yosemite with latest networkaudiod.

 

Not sure if this is how it should be done, but I launch networkaudiod on the client first, before launching HQ Player on the server and checking its audio settings in Preferences.

 

I gave NAA another try... still no success

set a WIFI network on a MBP 15 bearing HQP

joined it with a MBP 13 bearing the NAA

once I had a no route to server while pinging the 15 from the 13 but otherwise it's OK

pinging the 13 from the 15 I always get 30% loss

 

So it does not seem to be a Signalyst issue but a wifi network issue (router is a Time Capsule) ; has somebody a suggestion, else than buying 2 adaptors ?

[YashN]

The Raspberry Pi 2 is out today. Quad-core ARM with 1GB SDRAM (needs verification here):

 

Introducing the Raspberry Pi 2 | Hackaday

 

It is said MS will offer Windows 10 for free for it.

 

If you use the official Raspbian image, you usually get MatLab and Wolfram Language for free by default.

 

Could be an interesting platform for experiment with Windows or Linux as NAA.

[YashN]

In this new model they keep using the same unique LAN9514 USB/Ethernet controller which was a problem for Ethernet input and USB output needed for NAA.

 

Really? I thought they had moved away from that design since, but if they haven't, then that's a disappointment for our purposes, and the O-Droid seems a better alternative.

[YashN]

Kind of a silly question but what the heck:

how important is it to have a lightweight NAA in terms of installed applications (assuming none of them are running; things like JRiver, Minimserver, BubbleServer, etc etc)?

 

If I had an NAA setup, I would strive to make it as bare-bones as possible, not only apps-wise (some may contain daemons running in the background), but also O.S.-wise: I'd even go in the O.S. and disable unnecessary services, and if I could hack the kernel, I'd do that too (Linux is good here).

[YashN]

If you are not familiar with Audiophile Optimizer (aka AO) that is precisely what it does (disables unnecessary services and registry items, among other things).

 

Yes, but it doesn't customise the kernel

[YashN]

Out, out, ye vile running daemons!

 

Well, except for Network Audio Daemon...

[YashN]

To say it in a more general way, is there any requirement that the NAA must run the same OS as the computer running HQPlayer?

 

No.