Purchasing first DAC

[Rick - DreamHome Studio]

After being disappointed with music quality streaming from my Macintosh and doing a lot of research (made easy due to CA), I am about to purchase my first DAC (I'll likely start out with a PeachTree DAC•it or DAC HD by Halide).

 

I plan to use Amarra Mini to improve the quality of the music leaving my Macintosh, streaming to an Apple Airport, TOSlink to the DAC.

 

Anyone see any quality limitations with this configuration?

 

Looking at my AV Controller/Receiver's specifications, I found out that it has a Burr-Brown DAC built in (manufactured in 2007 (Yamaha RX-V3800)). Currently, I have a TOSlink cable from the airport to the AV controller, so with a Burr-Brown DAC (which I've read is pretty good), why is my music quality so poor? It sounds like a "wall" of sound, not like the open deep sound from Blu-Ray discs (my reference point that the amplifier and speakers are of good quality).

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[esldude]

Two obvious possibilities. Toslink tends to be jitter prone especially in longer runs. The other is the Airport itself is jitter prone as well. Or course you may also be using Toslink from your Bluray player so that might rule the Toslink out as being the difference.

 

Not knowing your physical layout, but using a USB to SPDIF converter to go from the Mac to the AV receiver might well be a good improvement without buying a DAC as you indicate the DAC you are using can sound good on Bluray discs. The Halide DAC HD is this solution with a DAC included. Don't know if the HD DAC is better than your Burr Brown (it might well be). You might do it cheaper by using the Halide Bridge to feed the Burr Brown Dac in your existing AVR.

 

If I understand your plan, you intend to stream to the Airport, feed toslink to a new dac then feed it to your AVR. I don't know if this will help your problem as the Airport maybe the source of your problems (which I think it is). So a solution that feeds directly from a computer into your AVR bypassing the Airport is likely either way to get you better results.

 

[Mark Powell]

If you want good quality you MUST leave out the Airport. They are not 'hi fi' at all. The jitter-prone Toslink won't help either.

 

Burr Brown DAC chips are one of the best, so I suggest USB from your computer to your receiver. Most receivers do not have a USB input but it will have S/PDIF, so buy a Musical Fidelity V-Link II (limited to 96K) or the new Musical Fidelity V-Link 192 if your receiver is 192K capable. Not that I have found the difference between 96K and 192K sampling rate to be audible, but you might).

 

If you buy the V-Link II you can try both a Toslink and a coax S/PDIF connection to your receiver, but the V-Link 192 is coax S/PDIF only.

 

I repeat, get rid of the Airport!!

 

PS: The Halide Bridge is much the same in effect as the MF V-Link II, at a slightly higher price. It too will be fine.

 

[NWDave]

I stream to an Airport Express with optical out going to my HeadRoom MicroDAC. The sound is fantastic. No audible difference (and I've tried several comparison sessions) between optical from the AE and a straight USB connection from the MicroDAC to my MacBookPro.

 

YMMV.

 

David

 

[dointhefish]

I use one of those for when I want to stream my iPhone to the stereo or when guests want to stream from their MacBooks. I don't consider it an audiophile interface. And if you're still hoping to use Amarra with it, you'll need to run the Airfoil software as well since Amarra doesn't have native AirTunes support (yet I think).

 

I'm a believer in the USB-SP/DIF conversion and there are lots of good products to do that at various price points. I use the Wavelength WaveLink which is pretty top of the line but the Musical Fidelity product should do you just fine. Also consider Pure Music as a software alternative to Amarra. Some prefer the sound of Amarra but I find PM does a terrific job of livening up the musical presentation over iTunes at a competitive price. Don't skimp on the USB or SP/DIF cable but no need to go overboard on them either. Mid-range Audioquest or Kimber cables are pretty good and do make a diff.

 

You're on your way to some great sounds. Enjoy the journey.

 

[Rick - DreamHome Studio]

esldude

 

Thanks for your feedback.

 

The BluRay is connected via HDMI (it is a Sony PS3 actually - never use it for gaming, just BluRay and Netflix streaming).

 

Your comments about TOSlink and Airport being jitter-prone are something I did not take in to account. I did have a gut feeling that the AirPort, which is a cool item, would be severely limiting my music quality.

 

Do you feel that the Musical Fidelity V-Link usb to spdif converter, connected to my AV amplifier via Coax instead of TOSlink, would be best? This of course heavily depends upon the quality of the Burr-Brown DAC that is in my Yamaha AV... which poses another question: is the built-in 192kHz/24-Bit Burr-Brown DAC (for all channels) on par with a sub-$1000 external DAC?

 

 

 

[Rick - DreamHome Studio]

Mark

 

I am now understanding that the AirPort is for my wife and kids.

 

The Burr-Brown in my Yamaha RX-V3800 is a 192kHz/24-Bit DAC for all channels, so I agree that I'll need to get a S/PDIF and I am learning that coax is the best connector, not Toslink, correct?

 

Your input is very much appreciated - this forum makes it easy to make a decision and not make a mistake!

 

[Rick - DreamHome Studio]

I failed to mention that my AV controller/amplifier does have a USB input port, however it is inconveniently located on the front of the unit behind a concealing door.

 

Unless there is some benefit to Macintosh USB out to Yamaha USB in, I am likely not to use it.

 

Any advice is appreciated.

 

[esldude]

Yes, the V-link via coax would be a big improvement for you. As others mention there are competitors to the V-link. They cost more. I have heard a couple and haven't done side by side comparisons. But the V-link gets nearly all the same benefits for sure. At least 80% or more of what more expensive solutions get for you.

 

As to whether your AVR's Burr-Brown will equal a sub-$1000 external DAC? My guess is the external DAC still might be better if it is a good one. However, I think the difference would be rather small. Nothing like the difference of getting away from the Airport. Also you probably would need the V-link to use the external DAC anyway. So I would get the V-link and see what you think of that. You can always add an external DAC later.

 

Not everyone agrees, but in my experience Toslink never quite equals a coax connection.

 

[Rick - DreamHome Studio]

Thanks for your comments dtf

 

After saving and waiting for a few years I purchased what I believe is an outstanding system (Focal Speakers, Yamaha Amplification). BlueRay sounds fantastic, even at times digital broadcast television sounds great, but my music is just a wall of sound - no depth, no detail. That is what caused me to begin investigating playing digital music.

 

I agree about the USB to SPDIF converter. I may also try the direct USB input on my AV Amplifier.

 

I also looked at Pure Music. I could not understand how PM will play FLAC files as I did not see that it had a standalone player for FLAC, and iTunes does not support FLAC. What are your experiences mixing FLAC, WAV, AIFF and iTunes purchased music files with Pure Music?

 

[dointhefish]

Pure Music has an import feature that allows you to include an anchor file in iTunes that references the FLAC file. When iTunes tries to process it with PM active, PM recognizes the reference and plays the FLAC file. I don't use this feature myself however since it seems a bit flakey from an implementation standpoint (I'm a software developer so I tend to judge these things) so I stick to AIFF files. These are the Apple equivalents to WAV files and as a result, take up the most disk space but also have the most direct path "from file to sound." As for using WAV files in PM, I haven't explored that path. And purchased files are no problem even though they are lossy.

 

OMT about going the USB route to your DAC. USB implementations have changed A LOT over the past few years due to its relatively recent inclusion in the audiophile market. SP/DIF interfaces have been around for sometime and are well understood by more manufacturers. So depending on the vintage of the DAC in your Yamaha, USB-to-SP/DIF may still be your ticket. My Audio Research DAC-7 has a USB interface that I consider to be only adequate so I'm not using it. I go USB-SP/DIF to BNC instead and the results are stunning.

 

Best of luck,

Andrew

 

[dointhefish]

Hey Rick, I did a little research on your AV controller and it looks like that USB interface is intended for memory based devices, i.e. USB based music players and portable memory. I'm highly doubtful that this could be your direct USB to DAC interface.

 

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/new/538999471/yamaha-rx-v3800

 

But check it out further and let us know what you find.

 

Andrew

 

[Rick - DreamHome Studio]

Andrew

 

I appreciate all of your advice. I am purchasing a USB-to-SP/DIF device and will go coax from that to the Yamaha allowing the Burr-Brown to perform d/a conversion.

 

Fortunately, both my Great Room and Master Bedroom home theaters back up on to each other, so I will go out of that same Musical Fidelity V-Link II via optical to the secondary system. This way I'll only have to purchase one Mac Mini.

 

While tech-savy, this is the first time I've ever participated in a blog or forum. It has been a fantastic experience, and many thanks to all who gave me a fast track to understanding enabling me to make excellent purchasing decisions.

 

[mayhem13]

Wow.....this forum needs moderators as soon as possible. There's such an overwhelming path of speculation and subjective conjecture in this thread. There's absolutely NOTHING posted by the OP that gives ANY indication as to what the 'problem' with his playback might be. Digital jitter being responsible for a lack of subjective 'open' soundstage?............really?

 

[Mark Powell]

I see that you may purchase this. Be aware that it only goes to 96K. You need the new V-Link 192 to fully take advantage of the 192-capable DAC in your Yamaha.

 

However, it does not have optical, as Toslink only goes to 96K.

 

EDIT: That may not matter to you, as you want the optical to avoid buying a second Mac, and the V-Link 192 won't fix this. Personally I am unable to hear any difference between playing at 96 or 192, but I only have a few hi res files.

 

[Spindly]

Rick, a couple of things. You wouldn't be able to use the Halide DAC HD in your Airport Express streaming setup as it's USB only.

 

There are contrary opinions to the Airport Express's jitter issues and its acceptability as an audiophile product:

 

http://www.stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/505apple

 

Audioengine has a new DAC/streaming solution with the Audioengine D2. I haven't had any experience with it, but I'm assuming it would work with other media players besides iTunes (so you wouldn't need an app like Airfoil to stream FLAC from another player):

 

http://audioengineusa.com/Store/Audioengine-D2#overview

 

I'm sure the wireless capability of the D2 would be more robust than using an Airport Express (the performance of which on my end has been notoriously spotty).

 

I'm currently just streaming CDs and files via iTunes and Vox (for FLAC, in conjunction with Airfoil) to my Airport Express, analog out to a a good set of active speakers. I too am looking to introduce a DAC/headphone amp into the loop. If you stay with the Airport Express, you may want to check out Audioengine's D1 for your needs, too:

 

http://audioengineusa.com/Store/Audioengine-D1#overview

 

Speaking of Amarra Mini, Pure Music, and any/all iTunes alternatives: has anyone had a good experience with a FLAC capable player that has decent library management? As someone stated above, I'd like to avoid inefficient and spotty importing into iTunes. I also don't feel like converting all my FLAC into ALAC. I've had good luck with Vox but its lightweight nature precludes any library management.