Understanding Sample Rate

[Spacehound]

2 minutes ago, MetalNuts said:

 

You  have right to dislike or even despise British HiFi industry but as you said the case did not go to trial and there is no judgment from the Court ruling who is right and who is wrong, what evidence do you have to support your accusation of Linn Sondek 12 was copied from others and not the other way round?

I don't dislike  it, I just laugh at some of the 'British' claims.

 

I forgot both Tannoy  and dCS as being genuinely British - I paid 15,000 dollars UK equivalent for a pair of 'Kensingtons'  and have the 23,000 dollar dCS Rossini too, so I can hardly be described as 'despising' the British audio industry.

 

Linn? The other one was in production for several years before the Sondek appeared and  Linn Audio did not exist until they made 'their'  Sondek turntable. That's my evidence on your "the other way around"  point.

 

So the first two of your 'issues' with my post are nonsense. Thus  they all are (see below for the third).

 

Ivor  Tiefenbrun's father ran an engineering company that built some parts of the other one on contract,   had full access to  both the actual turntable  and all its drawings. It was Linn's first product and the only one for some time. 

It's all on record, much of it in the British 'Hifi News and Record Review'.

 

Whether the earth is flat or  approximately spherical hasn't gone to court either.

[Spacehound]

30 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

There is nothing wrong to have different beliefs based on any reason or set of reasons.

The problem is when one demeans others purposely in a hurtful way, or to make personal attacks, or even stupid ass troll statements....those should never be acceptable or tolerated behavior.

You don't need to have any 'reasons' whatsoever for your 'beliefs'. Beliefs don't need  reasons, being merely opinions.

They aren't 'true' or false' either. One way they become 'facts' all by themselves, the other way they don't even qualify as 'wrong' because they remain opinions.

 

I do attempt to be factual, Got nothing to to with 'smart ass'. In fact I'm only still on this thread, even though most others have escaped,  because 'philosophy' is far more  interesting than sample rates

[Spacehound]

9 minutes ago, MetalNuts said:

 

From what you wrote does not further your case.  In our clivilzed world, the earlier existence of a similar product/item does not give it automatic rights to trademark, the patent, the copyright.  So what you said is nothing but your ignorance of the law but purely based on your subjective and biased opinion on the similar appearance of two items that the one appeared earlier in the market must be the one being copied (with disregard to the technical aspect inside).  More facts are needed to consider but apparently you are not providing any but your own assumption on the irrelevant fact.

It's not "my" case, and I see you have changed your tune, it's got FA to do with law, patents, etc.  even if you try and make it so.

 

Think whatever you want. I'm just stating what happened. It doesn't need 'thinking about'.

 

[Spacehound]

38 minutes ago, semente said:

To be fair he has. On loudspeakers. 

I know. I could write a book on loudspeakers too. Has he made one? I have made about ten .

[Spacehound]

7 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

Again, i have no issues with beliefs (factual or not)...what i have a problem with is demeaning personal attacks or idiotic troll posts..

 

7 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

Again, i have no issues with beliefs (factual or not)...what i have a problem with is demeaning personal attacks or idiotic troll posts..

I noticed you have no problem with beliefs. I will ignore your "when all else fails...."  insults.

 

 

[Spacehound]

25 minutes ago, MetalNuts said:

 

I am not a fan of Linn but I am interested in the case you mentioned and I am not saying that Linn or the other did not infringe.  But you have not presented it with the necessary facts and you made yourself liable to be sued by Linn for defamation since there is no judgment. 

 

I have tried to locate the case but so far not successful so I cannot even said whether the other party has withdrawn/discontinued the case or the parties just left it without further proceedings.

I see you hve moved the goalposts  from "Who copied who?" to law, patents, and other irrelevant stuff.

 

BTW: As lawyers only purpose is to overcomplicate stuff so they can make money out of it,  King Henry VIII got fed up with them messing with his laws so made them wear silly clothes so people would not take them seriously.

And it still works after 500 years. Only politicians and real estate people are lower than lawyers  on the UK 'social scale'.

[Spacehound]

18 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

and that is a stupid troll post..

 

You are the one that said yourself that many think you are a jackass.  This is exactly why.

Don't you think it is time you grow up, so you don't have to call yourself a jackass.Maybe you have some valuable knowledge to share that you can be respected for if you made a conscious effort not to be disrespectful and hurtful to others..

 

Look at miska or judd or many others here that have a lot of information to share.  They share in a meaningful and helpful way and are respected.  They won't get caught up with the idiots...they know when to move on. 

 

I am willing to take you head on, because I do think you have some knowledge and you can learn to be an asset to this site, without your admittance that others say you are a jackass.

 

..the choice is yours...

"Only wise people can  afford to play the fool now and again" - Einstein.

And you won't see me doing it with people I  "believe" to be wise.

[Spacehound]

17 minutes ago, MetalNuts said:

 

Any profession is better than a liar who tries to deceive others.  Right?

That's for sure. But I don't consider myself to be in in a profession, I'm just an oily handed 'big' computer developer.

 

I don't think people other than criminals  'deceive' deliberately.

But a lot know less than they think they do, like a bad 'Do it yourselfer'. I just try to stick to my knitting  and  have  now knitted for 40 years except for a short break. Which only exists because I was called back, which may look like a bigger deal than it actually is. 

[Spacehound]

15 minutes ago, MetalNuts said:

It is not what we say who infringed or who copy.  We have a judicial system in place and we have to trust and rely on it.  I am just a normal citizen in a civilized place so I have to abide by law and trust the law in deciding who is right and who is wrong.  The conclusion is Linn has the patent and it is the other who infringed.  You have tried to deceived others the other way round.

 

 

Linn Engineering was just one of hundreds of small  engineering  contractors, it did all sorts of 'small works' for other people.  The   'established' turntable manufacturer happened to be nearby so chose Linn Engineering.  Linn Audio didn't even exist until they copied the turntable. FACT

 

BTW: Their famous 'Isobarik' speaker was made from an 'off the shelf'  KEF drivers/crossover  kit you could buy retail in any decent electronic parts shop, though presumably Linn did not buy it 'retail'. They put one of the drivers on the top to use up a part of the kit  they would not have  otherwise used.

 

You are either arguing for the sake of it or you have another agenda. Goodbye on this.

[Spacehound]

10 hours ago, mansr said:

It's tiresome nonetheless.

Do  surgeons, the guy who's  driving  the airplane, etc. get all this 'noise' from amateurs who  incorrectly think they can do it better?

As it happens I'm a part-time flying  instructor based at Upham/CAA examiner (low pay but as an examiner the expenses are good and you get to see other places). Which is an almost  'casual' result of having flying as a hobby for many years and a  wish to 'further' my experience.

 

"Off you go then, I'm getting out"

 

[Spacehound]

11 hours ago, sandyk said:

I am well aware of the Forum's requirements, however it appears to be quite O.K. to ridicule and insult both myself and M.C. at every opportunity.

Is it any wonder why we rarely see informative posts any more by leading industry figures ,?

 

Sandyk,

I just picked your above post at random so I could 'reply' to you. Don't read anything into it.

Thought you might find this of interest:

One of 'our' latest computers. It may look like something out of Babbage's workshop but it isn't.  It  has a very strong potential to render all other computers as obsolete as the slide rule.  And 'we'  have already increased its power tenfold since September 2017.

 

 

 

[Spacehound]

3 minutes ago, mansr said:

Copying is permissible unless prohibited by copyright, patent, or trademark. That makes those things relevant.

Not to Linn Engineering (Linn Audio didn't exist)  copying  an earlier and still current  turntable they made some parts for under contract, which was the subject at the time. 

 

They  made a few, advertised them  in Hifi News and  Record Review, and maybe in other places, under their newly created 'subsidiary's name,  and called it the Linn Sondek (or LP12, I can't recall which)..

The two were identical in every resect except Linn machined some grooves in the wooden base.

[Spacehound]

15 minutes ago, mansr said:

Bowers & Wilkins?

Since 2016 they are  a subsidiary of EVA Automation of California. 

[Spacehound]

30 minutes ago, semente said:

 

Looks impressive. But what we really wanna know is "How does it sound?"

 

And how long it takes to burn-in...

It makes a slight bubbling noise and gives off 'steam'. Takes a real long time to 'switch' on. The bits can be zero, one, or both.

 

It  does everything instantly,  as far as we can tell from our 'less then perfect' measurements. Burn in included 

[Spacehound]

Just now, mansr said:

Unless those parts were covered by patent or copyright, they did nothing legally wrong.

Maybe not, it was never decided. But I don't want a Scottish copy of a Rolls-Royce either, I would rather have the original  German one. made in a bunker at Goodwood. The Germans seem   notably fond of bunkers.

[Spacehound]

4 minutes ago, mansr said:

AFAIK the engineering is still done in Britain, as is the manufacturing of the 800 series.

Yes. We cost less than Americans and aren't shot so often. Unless we decide to have Attack Schoolteachers too.

[Spacehound]

2 minutes ago, semente said:

 

Even if they did copy a non-patented design, I presume.

Linn  did patent the  bearing they copied. Which had been in use for a hundred years plus in good clocks.

Which shows how useless patent 'officers' are. as patents are supposed to be 'original'.

[Spacehound]

30 minutes ago, MetalNuts said:

What is the point of saying Linn was just one of hundreds of small engineering contractor?  Are you implying the law only protected those big enough company? 

 

A registered patent is a patent and the size of a company is not a factor.  Infringement is infringement! You wrongly presented that Linn copied others in the turntable and the fact shows to the contrary and you refused to accept that you were wrong.  I would take it for granted that you did not remember the facts well initially but the truth seems that no matter what fact is before you, you still maintain your view that Linn copied the other, that is malicious accusation.

 

Good bye to you and you are not a trustworth person to talk to at all, and you have no moral or ethics of whatever profession.  

 

 

I don't imply stuff, I post it.  Seeing that part  I didn't read the rest.

[Spacehound]

1 hour ago, MetalNuts said:

What is the point......etc

Try this.

My only error is that Ivor Tiefenbrun's father's company was called  "Castle Precision Engineering" not "Linn Engineering":

 

"what is undisputed is
that Hamish Robertson, the founder of Ariston, designed the Ariston
RD11 in 1971, and contracted Castle Precision Engineering to machine
the critical tight tolerance tapered shaft and bearing assembly that
is key to the superb results of both the Ariston and the Linn.  In
1973, just 2 years after it had begun, Hamish Robertson left the
company he founded after it was taken over by Dunlop. Within a year,
Ivor Tiefenbrun (the son of the owner of Castle Engineering) debuted a
new company and a new turntable design that looked – interior part for
part – like an exact replica of the Ariston RD-11 turntable with a few
cosmetic changes.

The February 1973 Hi-Fi News & Record Review, Linn announced

the release of their new LP12 turntable."

 

[Spacehound]

20 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Just like my wife and I were discussing over breakfast this morning :~)

There is  a nice selection of emoticons at the top. EG 

[Spacehound]

4 hours ago, mansr said:

Politicians are a subclass of criminals, right?

Most politicians are too incompetent to be criminals, even the ones in prison.  After the failure of their  Whelk stall MQA shilling would be a good match for their 'abilities'.

[Spacehound]

59 minutes ago, adamdea said:

 keydsOff topic, Mr Hound, but as a matter of interest do you think there is any chance it might  undermine blockchain as well? 

It could make 'bitcoin'  type mining extremely quick. My blockchain knowledge is almost non existent, but we have made totally unbreakable quantum encryption key  distributors  for some years but they are not a big seller.

The  prototype computers, which hopefully will soon be expanded sufficiently to be 'all purpose',  are already more than a million times faster (as far  we can measure)  at what they are good at  than the world's biggest supercomputers but AFAIK they won't crack quantum encrypted keys - the keyholders know something has had a try.  But the boxes above only distribute keys,  they are not involved in the encryption method itself.

[Spacehound]

39 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

All encryption-based technology that relies on the difficulty of computation can become useless should quantum computing become a reality.

Yes

[Spacehound]

9 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

Excerpt Cambridge Audio

 

There are some important details worth knowing when making a comparison between DSD and a FLAC file, for example. The first is that DSD is not magically better than its rivals. A ‘standard’ DSD file- often referred to as DSD64 is roughly equivalent to a sample rate of 24/88.2kHz. ‘Double DSD’ or DSD128 samples that single bit of information 5.6 million times a second to give you a signal equivalent to 24/176.2kHz. Again, this is a sample rate that can be reproduced by formats that are not DSD. Higher rates exist but they are very, very rare.

 

Against this, there are some more logical answers why many DSD recordings sound very good indeed. Studios that master music in DSD specialise in high quality recordings of extremely good musicians. Because of this, DSD material includes some sensational music and if you’re a fan of classical music in particular, you’ll find that some of the finest performances by orchestras and composers have been captured in DSD and thanks to the care and effort that went into them, they sound fantastic even before any of the benefits of the format come into play.

DSD isn’t currently a mainstream format and there’s a chance it won’t ever truly be something there’s a huge choice of music in. Despite this it does have some truly stunning recordings in exceptionally high quality and thanks to its inclusion on our network streaming products, it’s something you can enjoy as part of your wider listening.

What has any of that got to do with what he said?

[Spacehound]

1 hour ago, beerandmusic said:

 

It also appears in wikipedia:

Because of the nature of sigma-delta converters, one cannot make a direct comparison between DSD and PCM. An approximation is possible, though, and would place DSD in some aspects comparable to a PCM format that has a bit depth of 20 bits and a sampling frequency of 96 kHz.^[25] PCM sampled at 24 bits provides a (theoretical) additional 24 dB of dynamic range.

 

So if mansr has an itssue with it, he should simply modify it in wikipedia.

 

I have done this on a few things where my edits became the accepted "wikipedia answer"....if mansr's disagrees with above statement, he should take the time to correct it, so the world isn't misinformed.

 

It's not easy to get your final input in wikipedia because you are challenging the world, not just CA. 

I will give you something You are accepting  that it is worth learning whatever you can. Not just insisting on your 'beliefs' as you were before.

Re PCM vs DSD, it doesn't matter  a whole lot. They both work, and of course opinions vary as to whether one is superior to the other. Who cares? They are just opinions. My personal opinion is that PCM works so concentrate on that. DSD was just Sony's failed attempt to 'control' the market, They weren't interested in whether it is better or not. And it's dying. because it is so 'limited'.