Respectable Integrateds

[beerandmusic]

 

Please no responses from those that don't believe there are any respectable integrateds.

 

This thread is for those that believe a respectable integrated exists or can exist....if you believe it is not possible, please go troll somewhere else.

 

If you are like me and tired of reading all the craziness regarding interconnects, cables, daisy chaining usb toys, etc, and would like an integrated that you can just buy and call it a day, this thread may be for you. 

 

I love my aging mcintosh integrated amp, and look forward to replacing it with something more modern and that has a good digital interface (enet and/or usb), please share....

 

I know mcintosh makes one, and they just recently came out with a lower end unit with a digital module so the module can be upgraded in future (MA5300 & MA7200)...so this may be of interest, but their current dac module doesn't have enet and the dac chips are older (either 9016 or 9018, i forget) and don't have any isolation circuitry on it's usb input.  I have been informed that they are working on a newer DAC module, so if/when that is released, i may go that route.  In the mean time I am curious if there are any other notable integrateds with a good DSD capable digital input (enet and/or usb)?

 

I have heard good things about the "Parasound Halo integrated", but haven't researched as of yet, but since i cancelled my las vegas ces trip, I have decided i am going to start researching if there are any notable integrateds either now or in the works?

 

Again, Please no responses from those that don't believe that a respectable integrated can exist...your input is not desired...I am sure the likes of GUTB will respond anyway, hopefully no others, that don't have the input I am looking for.

[beerandmusic]

15 minutes ago, Norton said:

I was about to respond suggesting Lavardin or Pass, but then realised you are not using "integrated" in the established amplifier sense.

 

I hear good things about the JOB INT, then there a various new units from Naim.

 

Not sure what you mean by "integrated in the established amplifer sense" means.....I do mean preamp/amp in one unit...did you mean the establised sense doesn't include a digital input?  If so, we are seeing more and more that many integrateds are including a digital interface that supports dsd (e.g. enet and/or usb), and i believe that will be the defacto standard moving forward with most higher end integrateds. 

 

Anyway, yes, you reminded me about the NAIM...i remember eyeing one at the last couple shows i went to....my head wasn't in that direction back then, so didn't pay close attention, but it did catch my eye, so thanks for that recommendation....will also check ok the JOB (never heard of that one).

 

Even Marantz latest submissions (SRxx12 series) has enet and supports native dsd...but i found a bug in their firmware and sent the unit back.  They finally replied back that they hope to have the bug fixed in feb firmware release.

[beerandmusic]

4 minutes ago, fas42 said:

An audio friend down the road has been using Naim integrateds for years, and they get a lot of things right in raw form. That said, the reliability hasn't been brilliant - he has had to dive inside and fix failing parts - but that has also allowed him to improve implementation issues, something that you probably don't want to know about!

 

Yea, i don't have any desire to buy something with anticipation of having to dig in and fix (lol).  I doubt your friends experience is typical though (probably less than 2%), as I trust the NAIM brand and highly doubt that NAIM has  your suggested reliability issues, or it wouldn't have the success it has.

[beerandmusic]

49 minutes ago, GUTB said:

I don’t know why you assume I’m automatically against integrated amps...it’s true that it’s widley understood that separates are better. I think you’re referring to all-in-one systems, and those appear to all suck. The McIntosh may be an exception. There’s a Technics GaN FET class D I want to listen to. Others like the Cary and Hegel systems get mixed reviews...they seem to focus on size rather than sonic performance. The other class D junk we can discard.

Usually because you suggest everything "sucks" where i believe that just about anything in my budget ($10K complete system) the law of diminishing returns usually suggests less than 5% difference (and doubt most DBT could discern any consistently and notable appreciation) in SQ...and that has been my experience.  I am a scrooge when it comes to all the hoopla...i believe that as long as you are in the sweet spot, playing native dsd, from good source files, typically nothing else matters much besides the speakers and the amp.  I do believe recent revelations inre clocking and noise isolation needs to be considered, but beyond that....it's all hoopla!

 

But i did want to thank you for your suggestion of the technics name...i remember seeing a technics highend integrated at a local highend hifi shop that sounded decent so will look deeper into that also.

[beerandmusic]

10 minutes ago, Norton said:

 

By integrated I think you mean DAC+pre+power in one unit.  Most people probably wouldn't automatically include the DAC in that term.

Actually almost all integrateds have a dac if you think about it (any with toslink and/or coax)....but just recently (within the last couple years), MANY newer integrateds are including a dsd capable digital input (usb and/or enet).

[beerandmusic]

8 minutes ago, Norton said:

I do wonder if separates were more about fashion, profits, upgrade paths and interconnect sales  rather than SQ.

 

Is there any sound engineering justification for separates?   Maybe combining DAC/pre/power in one box and putting the power supplies in another would make more sense?

IMHO, The main advantage of separates is that you can get the best in class of each....but the disadvantage is interconnects, non unifiormity in clocks, power, cables, etc....but I personally believe that many strides have been made over the years and that the differences are relatively negligible if you ensure certain features (e.g. clocking, jitter reduction, usb isolation, dual mono architecture, clean power,  native dsd support)

[beerandmusic]

2 hours ago, biosailor said:

How about Micromega M-one 150? Just got DAR's product of the year 2017 recommendation. Never heard it myself, but sure looks interesting!

 

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/12/dars-product-of-the-year-2017/ and

 

http://micromega.com/en/

this does look like an interesting unit....another review here:

http://blog.son-video.com/en/2017/07/review-micromega-m-one/

[beerandmusic]

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

What do all "modern" high quality linear amps have in common? 

 

well engineered design architectures using latest technologies.

[beerandmusic]

7 hours ago, One and a half said:

Accuphase's first amplifier in 1973 was an integrated amp. For the OP @beerandmusic, try a model from 2010 onwards, there are two expansion slots that allow a DAC to slot in, analog board or a phono board. The previous slot in DACs had AD1955's, the new one has AK4490. A new DAC can fit in a legacy amp no problem.

The new models are here, warning, they are not cheap, and even used retain their value significantly. You won't find a banged up model going cheap with scratches all over it, they are well looked after. Used Accuphase integrated are about, but are snapped up quickly.

Their (electrical) current delivery can drive any difficult speaker and reliability is legendary. The design life is 20 years minimum, and they still have parts from the really early models.

SQ wise they are up there with the so called best of them.

 

These look very nice and are well recieved along with their high price....will keep looking waiting for something with enet and either 9038 or ak4497 dac chips with lower price point, or wait for mcintosh new da1 module with newer chipset and usb isolation circuitry.  Other nice features, but not must haves would be preamp out, phono (i know optional on accuphase), enet port...would be nice if others suggested here marketed more info on dac chips used, clocking, jitter reduction, usb isolation....research just starting, and i believe some integrated will be released in near future capturing all my checkboxes and at a lower price point.

[beerandmusic]

8 hours ago, marce said:

I would like to present an alternate view to the above last two posts. As so eloquently said in the above  quoted post; keep everything digital to the last possible moment... With today's digital you can get all the processing you need on a single board, so you control noise, EMC, signal integrity, signal paths (impedance, guarding). Data in at one end analogue drive signals for speakers out of the other end. All controlled, no cables, minimum connections, minimised interaction with external EMC. Internal compartments for the electronics (at the prices of a lot of audio gear you could do where PCB and enclosure form an intimate assembly, with the case having sections that provide isolation, also heat sinking. Investment casting with a bit of machining is a better option than machining out of a solid block. I.e. design it to the same standard as life/mission critical aerospace/military kit.) 

The more boxes you have these days the more likely airborne interference is going to have an effect, especially if your wiring is extreme, with external supplies, clocks, unshielded cables...  Same with the digital signal, my insttinc from years of trying to get signals (all types) from a to b is minimise the distance and minimise the interfaces, keep it simple, it works best.

So what could be simpler than a one box solution (though keeping mains out and having an external power supply, would provide two solutions, one keep mains noise and power supply noise isolated, filtered, and provide a means to change the SMPS for a liner supply!)...

Of course the biggest problem with acceptance of a one box solution, is it does bugger up the after sales market somewhat, so it will always be inferior.

 

I agree that a well designed integrated "could" offer more than separates in the unifomity of design, less need of interconnects, clocking, and probably other areas as well.  I also believe it will be frowned on by many, but that has never discouraged me...i have always enjoyed living on the outside of the box. 

[beerandmusic]

3 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

And yet you don’t bother with integrated systems. It’s common knowledge in audiophilia that separates are better than integrated (at the high end).

 

Your biggest problem is your "general statements" that are just plain wrong.  There are many integrateds that will best many separates.  You could correctly say that it is possible to put together better separates that will best an integrated, and not be wrong, but you are totally wrong to say that it is common knowledge that separates are better than integrateds.  Maybe you just need English lessons.

[beerandmusic]

6 minutes ago, MarkS said:

I would split the integrated and have a separate dac/streamer because technology is changing very quickly in that area;

 

You could just sell your old integrated and buy a new one with new technology, once you felt the new technology is advanced where an upgrade makes sense...

 

I know a lot of people don't want to buy/sell, but i do it regularly.

[beerandmusic]

16 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Why do men become so concerned with semantics when we argue about something? Is it because our egos just can’t take being wrong, or seeming to "lose" against someone else?

 

Mainly because you say stuff that is totally inaccurate...not just semantics.  I can't believe some of the things you say you actually realize what you are saying with your "generalized statments" such as everything sucks, or that separates are better than integrateds.....it doesn't take too much common sense to realize that you don't know what the heck you are saying. 

 

There are probably very few people that would "lose' to you in any debate, and I am surprised that I even bother trying to help you.

 

I just suggest you try and watch your "blanket generalized" statements as they just show your mentality.

Clearly by now, you have seen many people on forums across the world find fault with you...when everyone is wrong and you are right, that is a good indication, that it is you, not the rest of the world.

 

 

[beerandmusic]

1 hour ago, MarkS said:

 I would split the integrated and have a separate dac/streamer because technology is changing very quickly in that area;

besides the option of just upgrading the integrated, you can also opt for an integrated that has a dac module so you can just upgrade the module.  The new Mcintosh ma5300 does just that....I am hoping they will get a new dac module soon which has newer chipset, usb isolation, and enet port....then i will finally jump the gun!

[beerandmusic]

3 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

The real problems with all-in-ones are as follows:

 

 a little extra design may be needed to reduce noise

 

 if you upgrade you might have to upgrade the whole thing

 

 

Design can actually reduce noise as compared to separates needing usb toys, extra cables, extra interconnects, more clocks, etc...

some integrateds have modules which can be upgraded separately, besides, so what...when it makes sense, upgrade the "whole thing"...

 

 

 

[beerandmusic]

On 12/30/2017 at 1:26 PM, gmgraves said:

 

I've a friend with the Parasound Integrated. I haven't heard it yet, but he's crazy about it and I trust his ears. I replaced an Audio Research SP-11 pre-amp and a pair of VTL 140 mono-block power amps with a Harman Kardon HK990 a couple of years ago, and haven't looked back. The Harman Kardon is better in every way, especially in sound quality. I was really amazed at how much better my Martin-Logan Vistas sounded with the solid-state integrated than they had with the tubed gear. 

I see there are 2 different models of hk990 do you have a 1989 hk990 vxi or a more recent one?  an avr?

 

 

[beerandmusic]

On 1/1/2018 at 6:13 PM, AudioDoctor said:

Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP if all you want is pre/power in one chassis.  Absolutely stunning sound quality.

 

I also have a McIntosh MAC7200 Receiver, same as the MA7200 but with an FM module, and I love it.

 

If I were adding some to a list to check out I would add:

 

Peachtree Nova150/300

Balanced Audio Tech VK3000SE

Pass INT 60/120

McIntosh Integrateds

Rogue Audio has Tube and Hybrid integrated amps

Leben Hi Fi C300-XS

Luxman 550/590

 

On top of the things I already own.

 

None of these will get me on the Approved by GUTB Audiophile list though.

so which do you like better, the mac7200 or the Primaluna Dialogue Premium

[beerandmusic]

Lots of suggestions for new $4K+....any more suggestions for used or $2K and under?

 

[beerandmusic]

22 minutes ago, semente said:

 

I'd stay away from Prima Luna, their amps have very high output impedance.

what does that specifically do in the terms of SQ?

I have heard them at shows and was impressed.

[beerandmusic]

2 hours ago, MarkS said:

Sorry to repost, but the Job INT costs $1,700 and the Nuprime IDA8 costs $1,000. Both admittedly have limitations, but both (personal experience) are pretty darn good, especially for the money. 

 

Yea, i checked every entry...the job website scares me to be honest...i could do a better job in an hour (grin)...ihope they pay more attention to their amps than their website.

 

I prefer a beefier high current amp....vintage is ok.

The HK990 looks more up my alley.

 

[beerandmusic]

58 minutes ago, semente said:

 

The amplifier should be able to output flat over this or any other load (within reason).

 

Here's what happens when you measure the output of a Marantz integrated into the same load:

 

Marantz PM5003, Source Direct frequency response at 2.83V into: simulated loudspeaker load (gray), 8 ohms (left channel blue, right red), 4 ohms (left cyan, right magenta), 2 ohms (green). (0.25dB/vertical div.)
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/marantz-pm5003-integrated-amplifier-measurements

 

I have always been a fan of marantz and have been looking at pm7005?

[beerandmusic]

Just now, realhifi said:

For a smaller system that is a decent choice. 

i just edited..i meant 7005, but probably same deal...

[beerandmusic]

5 minutes ago, trappy said:

Very responsive, if somewhat brusque folks at Job. The website works fine, and my INT has made glorious music without a single hiccup for 15 months now. No shortage of current; it drives my 89db 4ohm Reynauds to neighbour offending levels and is pretty awesome on heavy metal, weighty brass, tinkling cymbal, and tickled ivory. I’m damn sure the DAC section kicks the HK990’s into last year. Best single piece of equipment I have ever purchased. The Marantz is a fine amplifier/DAC actually, but a little too laid-back for me — I kind of feel that way about most Marantz, TBH.

 

Yea, i am more of a laid back type...love my mcintosh, but I am planning on buying a new mcintosh once they come out with a new DA module and after my move, so i wanted something to hold me over....i just picked up the marantz pm7005...hifiheaven had one for only 599 with free shipping, so hard to pass on.

 

[beerandmusic]

I have heard the prima lunas at the last 2 shows i went to and i "really" liked them a LOT, not knowing about measurements, but listening sounded wonderful....might have helped it was paired with my current favorite speakers though (focal sopras)--grin.

[beerandmusic]

1 minute ago, semente said:

 

The ear should be the final arbitrer.

 

i think i would like any amp paired with sopras (grin