Mutec MC-3+

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Hi *progear,

 

I just registered to this forum I'm watching now for quite a while.

 

What can I say - it is really good.

full ack.

 

In my setup, a DEQX acts as a digital preamp/crossover - does quite a good job. Nevertheless, the signal is easily degraded by some jitter due to the chip in use there (CS8414).

 

I had a Big Ben to better that for quite a while. Was fine with music played from a PC via an HiFace ONE (with its own clean +5V). Was not so fine with signal from the SAT receiver. I got an extra box with ASRC (SRC4192) to reduce the jitter in the SAT signal.

 

Then Mutec asked me to beta test a new box claimed to do the same as the Big Ben in my gear, but better. To make a long story short: since than I have a MC-3+ (in some development steps) in my setup. Big Ben was sold. The latest version, which now is in production, even makes my ASRC obsolet.

 

I only toyed around with the reclocking function, yet with the Mutec one could also clock the Hiface Evo and the Mytec and still reclock the signal.

The Lynx L22 gets even better when given an external sync from a MC-3+.

 

In a german forum, someone asked in a thread Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock why not chaining two MC-3+. I was quite reluctant - for a day or so. Than I tried. Now, I've permanently two MC-3+ in my chain.

BTW: in case you can not read german and these translators don't give good enough translations, I'm happy to answer your questions. At least, I'll try ,-)

 

I am not sure whether the Mutec would improve the sound of DACs of the likes of Meitner or Stagetec, but to the more affordable high-end DACs it might be an upgrade worth considering.

Good question.

There are some reports in the german forum that MC-3+ improves SQ with various DACs (from personal experience: even with a Metrum Hex Dac fed by a Lumin the MC-3+ adds a little bit). There also few reports that MC-3+ doesn't change SQ or does some changes disliked by the user (Wadia 861 SE).

 

My lessons learned so far:

 

• even a MC-3+ cannot completely remove any jitter from the signal
  
  • it remains important to deliver the most possible jitter-free signal
    
  • MC-3+ acts on jitter like a filter. Staging filters does increase filter slope.
    Different to audio I didn't notice anything like degradation by phase shift - if you forget about the neccessary delay my the re-clocker
    

   

  [*]a DAC being quite jitter tolerant will less much benefit from something like a MC-3+

  [*]cable should be respected as in important factor for being able to degrate a signal (true even with digital signals)

  The same applies to aother stuff like psu.

Would be great to get more information on that - just to gain better understanding of that topic.

 

cheers

Ulli

[modmix]

Hi *progear,

 

Since we now do have two Mutec MC3+ (the BigBen is history) I think I could perform a cascade test in the near future.

Hope to learn about your findings here ,-)

 

 

Obviously you Germans got the toy first,

Well, it's made in Germany...

 

What made you aware of this nice box? - just a couple of weeks after it was released here in Germany.

 

but I still find it amazing that the thing has not created more of a stirr on this forum.

Either they don't use Toslink or SPDI or AES/EBU or they don't trust us...

 

Mutec has plenty of distributors in different countries - perhaps, nobody so far did find them to ask for a test ,-)

 

cheers

Ulli

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Hi *progear

 

Thanks for sharing your findings - another chain where one or better two MC-3+ do a good job.

 

BTW: do you plan to release the hostages?

 

 

Sadly, few here are interested in clocks.

Indeed.

Note that it's not only a clock but also a re-clocker - almost any SPDIF or AES/EBU signal will quite likely benefit from being treated by a MC-3+.

 

 

cheers

Ulli

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Hi Joel,

 

I know I'm going to hate myself for asking, but why string two MC-3+'s together?

It's not for spending more money ,-)

It's simply because sound quality increases (at least in my case and in case of another guy how did a test chaining up to four MC-3+)

 

And how are they connected to one another?

AES/EBU (Refine audio) in my case, SPDIF (Wyde Eye) in case of the four MC-3+ chain.

 

I currently have one MC-3+ connected by USB from my Zuma.

How do you do that?

MC-3+ has no USB input at all...

Maybe I misunderstood you...

 

One is that my DCS Debussy will not play 24/192 and DSD from SPDIF.

Same as my DEQX ,-)

DEQX and dCS might not play in the same league, though.

I simply do not have so much 24/192 material... no problem for me...

 

The other is that I love my PPA USB card and can't imagine moving away from it.

So, why not stick with it?

 

I'll appreciate any insights any current MC-3+ users have to offer as I've been told about the benefits of re-clocking which I can't do from USB.

MC-3+ helps to overcome a problem that doesn't exist with USB: get a stable (jitter free) sample rate from a clock barried in the data stream - the ist just one signal with SPDIF and the like. Al USB receivers I've seen so far use I2S which has seperate clock signals.

side bar

there are reports that in some cases the SPDIF input feed via MC-3+ delivers better SQ compared to the USB port of the same device - it all depends on how well the stuff is made.

 

hth

Ulli

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It requires a 3-1/2A 24V SMPS

Just in case you don't like any SMPS in your audio gear, there might be an option using a linear psu build by the guy who made a good one for the Lumin (posting #347).

 

hth

Ulli

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Got this info from Mutec - might be of interest for someone.

Dear MUTEC Customers and Friends,

 

herewith we want to invite all of you which come over to the

135

^th

AES Convention

in NYC to meet with us and visit our booth. You can find us at:

 

Booth no. 2960

 

We will exhibiting there in conjunction with our exclusive US distribution partner

Sonic Distribution US

. Besides the presentation of our new

MC-3+ Smart Clock

and its 1G-Clock technology, we also will have the other MUTEC products on display as well as two new items! These new products are shown at AES for the first time.

 

We are looking forward to meet with you at AES in NYC!

 

Sincerely yours,

MUTEC Press Dept.

 

 

Would be great to read a report or so ,-)

Ulli

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Any other tries with 2 (or more) MC3+ chained ?

In the german aktives-hoeren forum there is a detailed report of testing up to four chained MC-3+. His finding is summarised a table - something like SQ improves like as geometric series with a=1 and r=50%.

 

I doubt this series lasts for ever - intrinsic jitter might be the most prominent factor beyond a given number of chained MC-3+.

 

I'd like also to know if the 1st cable (drive -> Mutec) is as important as the second one (Mutec -> Dac). I read from Steve Nugent on the Empirical Audio site that any optical or low quality spdif would do the trick with a reclocker, but you have to get a very high quality spdif or AES cable between the clock/Dac to get most of the gains.

 

It's quite useful to know, because prices of high quality AES/EBU or spdif cables are not really on the cheap side...

In an early MC-3+ test on a quite good system (Tidal) we had a cd player (to have a jittery source) feeding via the MC-3+ a Teddy Pardo DAC. We used different prototypes of Refine audio digital cable. It turned out that it makes a difference where the better rated cable is used (the better one between MC-3+ and DAC was best - if I remember correctly).

 

In my MC-3+ chain, it does make a difference which connection is used between the two MC-3+ and what cable is used there.

 

I'm afraid, it isn't much different here from the 'normal' result: better is better ,-).

 

Of course, someone may decide that a certain level is just good enough - eg. three MC-3+ in the above mentioned case or just two in my case.

 

hth

Ulli

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Mutec MC-3+ tested by German Studio Magazin

 

The tester Fritz Fey is founder and owner of the reputable magazin. His "personal summary: this gizmo stays in my studio...".

 

 

Mutec kindly put the test online.

 

enjoy.

Ulli

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There are several DACs mentioned in Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock (sorry, german only). At some point in time I stopped counting the 'positive' reports... Just one or two where no difference was heard as far as I remember - for one I them my mileages varies ,-)

Happy ears

Ulli

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Sorry Boris - didn't see your posting...

 

I guess, there is no easy-to-use rules when it comes to USB vs. SPDIF.

A friend of mine just got an Exogal Comet. USB and SPDIF was just tied - until he put an MC-3+ into the chain (the one he used to improve the sat receiver sound). He will have to buy another MC-3+, he told me ,-)

 

So, in case you have made a test, pls, let us know about your findings.

 

Ulli

[modmix]

Very difficult to predict...

In case the source has no jitter at all, putting a re-clocker into the chain can not reduce any jitter at all...

Not all dacs are created equal - some react more on jitter at the input than others...

Knowing both, the source jitter spectrum and the re-clocker's jitter transfer function would be great... I don't know neither...

So far, the only way to get an answer to your question seem to be: give it a try...

Ulli

 

PS:

Using XLR is fine in this case - I'm sure.

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dup removed - sorry

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Just found this video:

[video=youtube;4q-T4XnUCeE]

 

They talk about the new 3+ USB.

Beneath 3+ USB there is a new Mutec 10 MHz clock - will have much better spec than any Rb clock I know ,-)

 

Ulli

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Any idea how much the 10M is going to be?

Wouldn't be surprised to see it in the price region of a good Rb clock (3.5-4 kUSD).

 

How do you know about specs?

The journey started a while ago with a good Rb clock attached to my MC-3+ - couldn't believe how much sound quality was improved. Next was to find out what parameters are relevant for good sound quality and to get such stuff with good values for the relevant parameters - long story short: Mutec makes use of an oscillator which proved in listening tests with my DIY trials being simply the best ,-).

I'm quite sure Mutec's design will be way better than my DIY style.

 

Cheers,

Ulli

[modmix]

Hi,

 

Christian Peters of Mutec asked me to post his statement in the german forum aktives-hoeren - might be of interest to some here, too.

 

Key message:

New MC-3+ Smart Clock USB will come with these audio interfaces

- S/P-DIF (optisch, coaxial, BNC)

- AES3 (XLR), AES3id (BNC)

 

To allow for this extension on audio interfaces at the given space, the number of word clock outputs is reduced from 6 to 4 - taking into account that word clock signal is less imported in the audiophile context.

 

And: MC-3+ Smart Clock USB will be available in black, too.

 

Ulli

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Hi Bill,

Mutec MC-3 Plus seems to offer more flexible functionality, as by the manual one of the several re-clocking functions, besides using the internal clock generator, is an "asynchronous" with re-clock aligned with the external reference (10MHz oscillator, in this case). So, this SHOULD provide re-clocking but with automatic sample rate tracking on the input.

Using MC-3+ since quite a while with various sample rate material, I can confirm: MC-3+ automatically adjusts sample rate to the input material - in both modes, with and without 10 MHz applied.

 

Let me pls add this:

LPFRS is the clock my 10 MHz journey started with - good for a first trial.

OCXOs are normally a better choice for this application - mid/long term stability is less important here...

 

hth

Ulli

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Short answer: do use 75 ohm cabling to connect a 10 MHz source do the 75 ohm specified input.

 

Longer answer adresses two topics:

 

 

• line impedance describes who waves are traveling on a line. As long as the impedance does not change there is just a wave traveling in just one direction: from source to load.
  
  from: Reflection coefficient - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  

 

=> your cable impedance should have the same impedance as its termination:

75 ohm in case of a MC-3+ 10 MHz input

 

 

 

• A 10 MHz oscillator does have an internal impedance Zs.
  The connected load ZL creates a voltage divider.
  A manufacture states in the data sheet the signal level for a given load - normally 50 ohm.
  
  from: Reflection coefficient - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  
  

 

A higher load does not reduce the signal amplitude as much as the lower load does - better with respect to jitter ,-)

 

Don't bother about impedance mismatch at the osc. output - most likely its Zs will differ from say 50 ohm anyway. As there will be no reflection from the proper terminated line end (MC-3+), all is fine.

 

hth

Ulli

[modmix]

But isn't a change from a 50 ohm source to 75 ohm cabling a break in impedance already?

Sure it is a break.

But, 1) what is the impedance inside the osc. before the signal reaches the connector? and 2.) line impedance is a physical description of what happens on a wire which is a valid description only in case cable length is long compared to wave length - which is about 20 m for 10 MHz on a cable.

 

For example, LPFRS has CMA output which is a 50 ohm system.

Read: it has a 50 ohm plug. Sure.

 

If you link a 75 ohm cable to a male CMA connector on the oscillator side, there's a break right there.

see above.

 

Wouldn't running all the cabling in 50 ohm, terminate with a 50 ohm BNC terminator through a T-piece and run the MC-3+ with high impedance input be less of a break in the pipeline?

No.

You have to take into account the MC-3+ internal impedance which isn't infinite and which is in parallel to the terminator

=> your proposed cable termination will be lower than 50 ohm

=> your proposed cable termination causes unwanted reflections.

 

just my 2 ct

Ulli

[modmix]

I think the new 10MHz clock would merit serious consideration when it comes out.

So do I ,-)

 

Then impedance mismatch like this would be a moot point.

First of all: As long as you don't know the output impedance of a given clock...

Signal strength at a given load doesn't tell anything at all about this topic...

 

Second, I'm pretty sure that there will be done a "good job that Mutec" again.

 

br

Ulli

[modmix]

Hi Joel,

 

I never had the chance so far to try an MC-3+ USB smart clock - I'ld be surprised in case the new version does not adjust automatically...

 

Recently I could work with an MC-1.2 beta - it played via USB all sample rates without any further action - didn't even think about how to adjust sample rate at this nice gizmo ,-)

 

As far as I know, release was planed beginning next year. Due to the audio interface changes, a small delay might happen ,-)

 

Watch the small video at about 1:30 for price information, pls.

 

Cheers

Ulli

[modmix]

However, given the good job that Mutec did with MC-3+, I think the new 10MHz clock would merit serious consideration when it comes out. Then impedance mismatch like this would be a moot point.

Just received information from Mutec:

Ref10 output impedance will be 75 ohm - good job, as expected ,-)

Ulli

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Mutec now has a march 2015 Tape Op test report here on their site.

 

click on the image on the Mutec page to get the report.

 

Some nice statements:

 

 

• Two clocks in series? Those nutty audiophiles! ---snip---
  daisychaining two of the clocks together. I’m about to step into audiophile-speak here, but we were able to hear...
  

 

• However, audiophiles are a fascinating group who are interested in tiny, incremental improvements in their playback systems. I don’t believe that any single small improvement is really a big deal, but I do believe that enough of those improvements (or the removal of them) can add up to something significant.
  

 

Happy ears

Ulli

[modmix]

Hi Joel,

The new MC-3+ USB will adjust to the incoming sample rate on the AES/EBU or BNC input as well as with the USB input?

I'm beta-testing a lab version of the MC-3+ USB and can now confirm the rate is switched automatically to the rate on either inputs, be it AES/EBU or be it USB.

 

And - first impression after listening to not yet final hardware:

USB feeding the MC-3+ USB gives simply intriguing sound quality.

 

Any idea as to the release date...?

They hope to be ready in August.

 

Cheers,

Ulli

[modmix]

Could you elaborate on what's "intriguing" about the sound quality?

Do you know pitch23.pdf? This phrase at the very beginnig describes my current understanding:

The raw data acquired by the outer, middle, and inner ear are passed first to the primary auditory cortex, which in turn produces a kind of executive summary of the sound, suitable for the busy conscious mind.

The "executive summaries" when listening to the MC-3+ USB are much closer to what I get when listening to real instruments or voices.

 

For quite a while RME AES Hammerfall was my DDC - until I tried a WCLK produced by 10MHz referenced MC-3+ at the WCLKin of the RME card - better. As switching the rate at the MC-3+ made things a bit complicated, I switched over to a WaveIO. At the end, WaveIO was supplied by Paul Hynes PR3, was connected via USB isolator (my DEQX doesn't play higher than 96k, anyway), was driven by a Paul Pang PPAv4 also supplied by a PR3 which also supplies the TPS7A4700EVM providing the 3.3 V of the PPAv4, all that in a PCIe-USB Riser - quite an effort with quite good result.

 

The MC-3+ USB plays at least at the same level.

 

All that of course are first impressions...

 

hth

Ulli

[modmix]

It would be good to know if the MC-3+ USB and/or Mutec 1.2 supports USB input from Linux source ? (Like daphile or Jriver Linux music players)

I've done it with the Mutec MC-1.2:

MC-3+USB should do it as well - no Linux pc for the time being.

Under Windows, MC-1.2 und MC-3+USB can make use of the same USB driver...

 

Other topic is that if USB based source is 16/44khz, are there settings that MC3+ USB or Mutec 1.2 could upsample to 24/96khz (as AES EBU) ?

Not that I know...

You could of course use an upsampler inside your player...

 

Happy ears

Ulli