What do you want from PC Audio

[mpmct]

Chris,

 

You imply that you fully understand Goodwin's business relationship with EndPCNoise.com. Yes? So is it strictly a referral-only relationship? Can you verify that?

 

Of course they don't want to be in the computer business.

It's not their business. Hi-end music servers are, however.

The page I referenced makes it very clear they encourage their

clients to avoid computers altogether, and rather purchase

one of their 'easy' solutions, for the kind of money that Ashley

referenced: at many times the price. Anyone who doesn't see that they made a full-press effort to blind their prospective clients with Windoze-brand science ... well.

 

There is *nothing* wrong with this. It's business.

 

But I call: BS.

 

Why list the tedious and painful bits regarding setting

up a computer music server with Windoze? And ignore that a Mac

is as good if not better, trivial to set up, save the tinkle of an intermittent tiny fan, if one insists on having the computer in one's lap?

Rhetorical questions, anyone with half a wit knows the answers.

 

Noise is all relative, yes.

So the next question is obvious: Who among us listens to music in an anechoic chamber? Those who do need the Windoze 'runs silent runs deep' behemoth.

Those who don't can enjoy all the good that comes with a much less expensive, many times more elegant, and many times easier to use, Mac. :-)

 

 

 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi mpmct - Sorry if my wording suggested that I understand Goodwin's business relationship with EndPCNoise.com. I truly do not and it's only an educated guess.

 

I do see your points throughout the rest of your response and they are very valid. I'm a huge fan of saving money whenever possible and I'm a huge fan of Macs. We are likely more on the same page than we are on opposite pages.

 

Have a great holiday guys!

 

[tfarney]

"I'm certainly not speaking for Goodwin's here, but I don't agree with the comment about Macs not being in their interest."

 

I wouldn't be at all sure of that, Chris. For authorized resellers, there is almost no profit in selling Macs. All the money is in selling software and accessories; things that are not of much use in building a music server. As you know, all that is necessary is a cheap Mac laptop, or a mini, an iPod touch, and a couple of $200 external hard drives. But there is not only no money in that for the small, high-end shop, there is little chance that it could ever happen (becoming an authorized Apple re-seller).

 

On the other hand, recommending and guiding customers through a really elegant, cost effective solution might create the opportunity to sell DACs, preamps, amps, speakers, etc. and be quite good for business in the long run, but it would not provide a direct revenue stream, so it is an understandable business decision, if not the best one over the long haul. Heck, it may even be the best decision for the business. For their own reasons, Apple's best strategy is always going to be re-selling through big retailers like Best Buy, so they are only going to reach the audiophiles who manage to find them on their own. If Windows-based "silent servers" become the audiophile solution of choice, simply because they're available through the traditional audiophile channels and spoken of through traditional audiophile media, it won't be the first time that the more expensive, or technologically inferior solution won because the marketing and distribution wasn't aligned to the target market. It happens all the time.

 

Tim

 

[mpmct]

Let me maybe overemphasize that the folks at Goodwins,

over my ~10 years of bothering them, were all really great people.

 

I had the sense, even back in the day when I had no

business shopping there given my meager means,

that they shot straight, even for audio-philiac wanna-bes like me.

 

It's a great shop, and anyone who happens to be in

greater Boston area and can get to their

place in the 'burbs ... it's great fun. Huge place, and they have

many awesome dedicated listening rooms. And they let clients browse,

with their music of choice, no pressure. I spent lots of

fun weekday mornings with a few of my favorite CDs in tow,

and never bought a thing. I probably owe them!

 

But ... as Tim just elucidated, if these folks would now

step up to the plate, face Apple ... they have nothing to lose,

everything to gain. Seems obvious?

Just don't blind prospects with baloney. That's where

I get all rankled. ;-)

 

 

 

 

[johnnyturbo]

"perspective", not a quality much indulged in by "audiophiles'. yes, we live in the real world, with ambient and other environmental sounds that, perhaps, so very unjustly, intrude on our 'critical listening'. tsk, tsk. so, unless we soundproof our rooms, build audio bomb shelters and other types of isolation chambers, we are gonna be stuck with a goodly amount of life sounds... or just plain life.

 

Goodwin's "high end". a dealer. self serving and no doubt a fine guy.

 

just think of it, we have the power and available options to have our high quality music reproduction without mortgaging our kid's futures. all we have to do is to start to live in a real world of listening. yes, put the hard drive in the closet; a sensible idea. no doubt there are numerous commonsense approaches that will not cost an arm an a leg and will yield audio pleasure. is not audio pleasure what we seek?

 

oh yes, in the name of fairness: if you have the 'bread', spend spend spend. it does feel good to feed ourselves.

 

 

[mpmct]

On both sides of the pond we're living through/suffering through

another agonizing reappraisal: those who claimed to have their

finger on the pulse of prosperity were clearly talkin' trash while

they took their undeserved cut. They weren't adding value,

they were skimming off the top. Yeah, we shoulda' knowed,

and no, we ain't seen nothin' yet.

 

In my business, one adds value, or one is history, soon enough.

I grew up one state north of the 'Show Me' state.

So show me. If you can't show me, you will be out-ed.

Baloney is in for some tough times. Shoot straight --

tough love makes the world go round.

Cash for trash is like, so yesterday, man. ;-)

 

[Ashley James]

I think it's easy to be cynical about the present situation in Hi Fi and to some extent it's with justification, however I believe most people do things for the right motives, but not necessary with good reason. The hi fi fraternity have long believed, wrongly in my opinion, that the source was the crucial part of a system, so it's not surprising that some have devoted vast resources to producing what they believe to be the best.

 

Computers have been part of music on the Pro side for over twenty years, but are a very recent arrival in hi fi and this is the only site that singles it out and fully understands that there won't be anything else but computers in audio soon. Therefore we're all experimenting, I and AVI have been at it for three of the fifty odd years that I've been interested in the subject. This means we're bound to see a host of new ideas that will die as people find the simplest and most effective way to get the best results.

 

IMO, lots of Audiophiles have made the whole thing terribly complicated with all sorts of external storage, strange media players, insisting on FLACs and much more, but I think they are a tiny minority compared to the type of people attracted to the idea of integrating the hi fi, the TV, their photos and their music, because that is what the majority want. Even 50" Plasmas have pretty average sound quality and it's quite often that fact that tempts people to take another look at hi fi.

 

Hi fiers have been insular and dismissive of computers in audio and it has cost them dear, because not only do they have to catch up, but they also have words to eat! I switched to Apple three years ago and am now completely sold, but it's only recently that I've discovered by talking to IT experts and by dismantling this Macbook Pro, that I've discovered that they are a true hi end product. They are beautifully made, properly accessible and serviceable and their operating systems don't slow with time. By way of contrast, manufacturers using Microsoft's OS are in a price driven market, so they tend to cut corners knowing that Mr Gates is getting a big chunk of their revenue. You not only get a cheaper and potentially less reliable machine, but also you get Windoze.

 

Having said all that, whether you buy a PC or a Mac, you're still likely to have a more reliable product than a good few specialist hi fi manufacturers can provide. Many are still using old fashioned hand assembly and testing and are having all kinds of problems.

 

Therefore I believe that people should view Apple especially, as a true hi end product that benefits from being built in massive quantities. Apple's buying power is better, their manufacturing techniques are superior and they are supplying both the hard and the software, so are answerable for all problems, when Microsoft isn't always. Windows 7 is on the way and may address some of the issues, but if it doesn't Apple will continue to be a no brainer for the home media system.

And at a huge cost saving over traditional hi fi.

 

Just my thoughts

 

Ash

 

PS. Don't forget the PS3 either because it is not just a games machine and Blueray player, it's also a superb Music and video streaming device and lots of hi enders are buying them to replace hi fi!

 

[shenzi]

I've come into this a little late and shouldn't be typing this on Xmas morning. However ...

 

I must take issue on the question of full range speakers. Yes, you have to define your terms and you must accept compromises. I've been using Jordans of various sorts for over a decade. The early ones used a 2" driver from 500Hz and crossed to a Jordan bass. It went loud, was powerful and the imaging was great. None of the usual treble nasties.

 

I have now compromised further in some respects, using Jordan's 4" drivers from 100Hz up. They don't go as high into the HF as the other system, and won't go as loud but there is no crossover, no separate treble and the imaging causes the back wall to just disappear.

 

I can appreciate they are not for everyone and you have to decide what is important. If you can accept the loudness limitations and are happy to use with a sub, I can recommend them.

 

Apologies for diverting off topic. Back to stuffing the turkey.

 

[tfarney]

This looks interesting...

 

 

 

http://www.tektondesign.com/op45.htm

 

Tim

 

[shenzi]

I can't comment on those - I haven't heard Fostex units.

 

I didn't get into the Jordans because they were fullrange or wide bandwidth or because of the philosophy. I heard the first system and thought, "that's it, end of search." And it still holds true.

 

Their simplicity appeals. Much like audio from a computer.

 

 

[tfarney]

Actually, it is the philosophy that piques my interest. I'm a hardcore headphone listener, and while I have access to many fine conventional speakers and amps, nothing I've ever heard provides the midrange purity of the single, full-range drivers that are my Sennheiser HD 580s. I understand it is a very different challenge, but I'm drawn to the full-range driver concept out of a desire to get that purity, hanging in the air of a room. Even a very small room. Even, maybe even ideally, over my desk.

 

Tim

 

[cfmsp]

 

Ash said:

"IMO, lots of Audiophiles have made the whole thing terribly complicated with all sorts of external storage, strange media players, insisting on FLACs and much more, but I think they are a tiny minority compared to the type of people attracted to the idea of integrating the hi fi, the TV, their photos and their music, because that is what the majority want."

 

loved your post, Ash, but wanted to respond most to this nugget, especially as it relates to a comment Chris made recently about Apple TV vis-a-vis music servers.

 

"dedicated music servers and Apple TVs are like apple and oranges (no pun intended). The both offer vastly different feature sets."

 

Chris, I know you're a fan of macs and are therefore NOT dissing Apple TV when you say they are different, but....I'm wondering what's so different OTHER than the addition of TV and photos with music. Do you not feel that the Apple TV qualifies as a bonafide music server?

 

I'm quite curious,

Clay

 

 

 

 

 

[Ashley James]

Tim

 

In a few posts you've summed up the problems in Hi fi that affect sound quality most. The most common one that reviewers in the UK don't hear is underpowered amps clipping on certain transients, they make the sound lean, hard and painful. Usually voices. The other that nobody seems to have noticed is rotten crossover design. It's obvious to you because you use headphones and it's obvious to large numbers of iPod owners who periodically post on various Forums asking what they can do to get their hi fi as good. They are usually derided for their trouble or told to try a cable change!

 

Full range drivers are not the solution but decent crossover design is.

 

IMO Computer audio and music servers reached perfection the day iTunes was offered to the public, now it's up to high fi manufacturers to catch up by.

 

Ash

 

[tfarney]

"Full range drivers are not the solution but decent crossover design is.

 

IMO Computer audio and music servers reached perfection the day iTunes was offered to the public, now it's up to high fi manufacturers to catch up by.

 

Ash"

 

I'm not so sure. I've heard some pretty good speakers with pretty decent crossover design. But maybe the upper mid harshness wasn't the crossover. Maybe it was just good, old-fashioned clipping. I know that's not what I'm experiencing at home. I have plenty of power here. I suspect my humble Model Sixes would sound much better with the right crossover mod.

 

What is it hifi manufacturers need to do to catch up on? It seems to me that the DAC is the simple (though often grossly over-complicated and over-sold) bridge between the server and the stuff that hifi manufacturers have been working on, and frequently improving, for decades.

 

Tim

 

[Ashley James]

Tim - IMO there are lots of loudspeakers out there with serious design flaws and you can hear them. It's more difficult to find good than bad. I think the problem lies with enthusiasts who've assumed they are better off buying everything in separate boxes, when they aren't technically and certainly not if they want good value, because the metal enclosures it all goes in are the most expensive bit.

 

Many of the problems are caused by amplifier and speaker manufacturers not understanding each others problems. For example, 4 Ohm speakers abound despite the fact that halving impedance means twice the distortion as well as an amplifier having to produce twice the power. In order to provide this, bigger power supplies, more output devices, bigger heat sinks and so on are needed. Or the amp clips!

 

We make passive Neutron 5's, they are text book 8 Ohms speakers and don't drop below 5.4 Ohms. Sensitivity is average for a 5" Two way at 87dB/W/M and yet we've recently had two people on to us complaining of harsh, strident treble. In both cases, turning the volume down to an unacceptable level got rid of the problem! However only one customer would accept my explanation and change his Amplifier. The other believed the magazine, sold the speakers and is now looking for a bigger floor standers. They both had the same amplifier from a reputable company, it doesn't have sufficient headroom and it clips unpleasantly and I hate to think what it would do with 4 Ohms. Crap like this has held hi fi back for decades IMO. It might be different over there, but in the UK, this is an endless problem. When I say they need to catch up, I'm referring to this sort of thing.

 

Ash

 

 

 

[mpmct]

Ran across this article ...

 

snippets:

 

"Loudspeakers represent truly complex impedances, which only an equally complex passive crossovers can match. Thus deriving the required crossover frequency and slope is difficult with a passive crossover and changing a preexisting passive crossover frequency is anything but easy. Active crossovers, on the other hand, remove the large passive components that make up the passive crossover. This is for the good, as the hundred feet of magnet wire that makes up the inductors and the two back-to-back electrolytic capacitors that make up most crossover non-polarized capacitors are not missed: these components are far from ideal. And the power amplifier, once freed from having to work through this dreck, exercises a better control of the loudspeaker drivers. For example, a damping factor of 100 means little, if the passive crossover adds 1 ohm of DC resistance to the mix, thereby decreasing the effective damping ratio to 8. "

 

........

 

"The ear is most sensitive at about 3 kHz (roughly, the resonate frequency of the ear canal). As the frequency falls from this frequency, so does our sensitivity to it. So if a bi-amped system sees a signal that only clips the woofer amplifier, the ear will not complain as much as it would if the tweeter amplifier had clipped. A further reason is that woofers are slow heavy devices that cannot reproduce the harsh high harmonic of the clipped low frequency waveform. So while a low frequency amplifier may clip repeatedly, the woofer will not readily betray that fact. And since it is usually the low frequencies that demand the greatest share of power, the two 36 watt amplifiers may even seem more powerful than a 144 watt amplifier as long as the high frequency amplifier has not clipped."

 

http://www.tubecad.com/articles_2001/Active_Crossovers_and_Filters/index.html

 

 

[Ashley James]

mpmct

 

In principle what the article says is correct and as a result active loudspeakers now dominate the Pro Audio sector and have done for many years. However many of these designs have carried over the same mistakes people make with passive crossovers and none are particularly expensive and therefore don't totally convince in the case of active versus passive. Studio people have a tendency to spend a fortune on Mikes and other bits of fancy outboard gear and then buy the cheapest speakers they can get away with!

 

On the hi fi side, Active speakers have been few and far between because no one wants a head on fight with "dyed in the wool" separates fanatics, who would rather slash their wrists than admit that a pile of boxes is worst way to get the best sound quality. As it is, the fights rage on British Forums as to whether computers can sound as good as CD players and more and more make the change and decide they can. There is little technical understanding and certain manufacturers have done a very good job of convincing people they don't need any, so the process is taking longer than it ought.

 

Into this lot stepped AVI, because we could see that computers would soon dominate and that people didn't want all the boxes anymore. A self contained Hi Fi system in a pair of Active speakers was an obvious partner to a Computer and TV set. We didn't care about the possible (guaranteed as it turned out)! Fight because we're small, have low overheads and subcontract everything we can. The astonishing success of ADM9.1s has convinced me that this is the future of hi fi. This might have been a good time to introduce them too, as it saves the customer a fortune at a time of economic downturn. Active speakers designed correctly are miles better than passive ones, in that they get rid of the problems that Tim has described.

 

I'd like to point out at this stage that had I said this on certain British forums, there would be howls of derision and protests that I'm advertising and lots more and worse. I've even been banned for making scurrilous and un-supportable claims and so on. I shall never be able to thank Chris enough for giving me an opportunity to present my case and taking the view that visitors to this Forum will expect me to be biased and will make up their own minds.

 

I've mentioned that all manufacturers are aware that Active speakers are better and some, like Tannoy and Dynaudio make them for the Pro sector but don't sell them to Hi Fi. The problem is that as sales have declined so the customer base has become narrow, intransigent and hostile to change. I believe this in part explains the persistence with turntables and that it is a common phenomena in niche marketing where people's prejudice's are indulged to persuade them to buy. Obvious examples are selling stuff to old people on the basis that it harks back to a better past and antiseptic sprays to young mothers to protect "baby".

 

A more subtle example of niche problems is BBC Radio 3, a classical music only station that costs a fortune to run and has a tiny audience. Because they have to justify the License fee and it's difficult with one that's been as low as 24,000 in a day, they've investigated ways of increasing it, to be told by researchers that it can be done, but not without pissing off the present one! They'd been getting a big bag of praise mail if they stuck to traditional fare and an equally big bag of hate mail if they altered anything. But at the same time and this is crucial to understanding the situation, the audience was diminishing. The conclusion is that small groups become intolerant and insular, but in doing so they behave in a way that tends to alienate people, so that members start to drift away to bigger ones where there is a broader cross section of ideas and more tolerance. We see this with religious sects, car clubs and all sorts of things, but we rarely consider the mechanism.

 

In my opinion Hi Fi is in this position at the moment, people have been deserting it for twenty years or more, but recently computers have given a smallish group a sizeable knock, but next to AVI they are a Mack Truck to a man on a bicycle! Undoubtedly Computers and AVI are the bogey men of the legacy separates brigade for obvious reasons.

 

Active speakers are the future, they address problems that passive speakers probably can't and they save customers a fortune. I'd guess that AVI will not be alone for long.

 

With sincere thanks to Chris for allowing me the opportunity to express opinions that have been deeply unpopular elsewhere.

 

Ashley

 

[Abstraction]

Ashley--

 

I am sure you have met a lot of opposition and stupidity. One does on these forums. But I would be able to read your post with greater attention if you did not immediately categorize me--a completely willing reader--as a traditionalist fanatic. There are, to be sure, people on this board and others who have found their truth, however meager it may be, and repeat it like a broken record as we used to say in the old days of vinyl and classical music. (It does seem to me, by the way, as not rhetorically wise to tie your argument to any particular musical taste.)

 

As a matter of fact, your post does little to educate us about active speakers. I have never had an opportunity hear high-quality examples. Why, theoretically, are they better? How might someone identify a well implemented active speakers from a spec sheet? Even in New York it is not easy to hear everything. Many important products do not have dealers here. If I am going to make the effort to hear a product, I have to be convinced first that it is worth my effort to seek them out.

 

PC audio seems to me an indication that a large percentage of the audiophile customer base is ready to adopt new ways of doing things. I can see that active speakers would be a convenience, but I have some very well designed speakers and amps that I am a pleased with. My system--which is on the cheaper side of high-end--is in the ball park with the best systems I have heard, and I have made the effort to hear many different kinds of systems. PC audio seemed immediately to me a winner. The sound was as good as I was getting from a high-quality transport, and it gave me incomparable access to my large music collection. It was a clear winner. I unhooked my transport and never looked back.

 

I see no reason that eliminating some of the boxes improves my system. Is there something possible in terms of design that is made possible by active speakers? I can see that it would reduce the costs and clutter cables, which is a plus. Why am I a fanatic for not immediately recognizing the superiority active speakers?

 

[Ashley James]

I'm extremely sorry, you're absolutely right, only after the opportunity to edit my post had gone did I realise that I should have referred to these people as a vociferous minority as "pressure groups" always are IMO. The reference to a Classical Music station was only to illustrate the characteristics of small groups and not a choice of music.

 

As regards explaining the benefits of Active loudspeakers is concerned, I've done it too many times on this site to a point of being worried about overdoing it. In this instance it has come up again because Tim had pointed out that Headphones sound better than loudspeakers. I explained that passive crossovers, that headphones don't have, introduce a great deal of distortion but that there were ways around it. Suffice to say the advantages of Active speakers can be considerable, but are not always. Chris has reviewed them on CA too.

 

May I suggest that you search the site for the information that is already here and then perhaps email me directly with questions, so that I don't use this very important Forum as a sales outlet! There is also an ADM9 owners Club on Facebook for those who might be interested. It was started and is run by an early Finnish customers keen to give people an opportunity to discuss them away from the hostility of the old guard on some Forums.

 

Ashley

 

I also believe that our US agent www.overtureimports.com will send them out on trial.

 

Added later: One Forum claims 1000 uniques a day, it's posters are IMO in the category described above and the hard core amounts to perhaps 15 people max, which is a tiny percentage of those that visit and it makes me wonder why the moderators don't stop them as I'm sure Chris would. IMO (and I post too much) timid posters, invariably are the ones with something worth saying.

 

 

 

[AV-OCD]

This may seem like a minor issue, but for me the biggest detractor for active speakers, especially for multichannel, is getting AC to each of them. Now not only do I need to run line level to each speaker, but I need an AC outlet near each one. If there isn't an outlet nearby, then I'm looking at needing to use an extension cord, which is even more Ghetto than having speaker wire strewn about. I've done all of the low-voltage in-wall wiring in my living room, but I would need to hire a contractor to run new AC lines for powered speakers.

 

 

 

 

[johnnyturbo]

tim, in your last post, you described the use of an extension cord as (being) "even more Ghetto". rather than make any assumptions of what you meant by that phrase, could you please clarity its meaning?

 

thanks.

j.t.l

 

[shenzi]

As someone who doesn't own active speakers but has read a fair amount about them, I'll step in and offer a few of the advantages in going active:

 

1. The power amps can be precisely matched to the drive units, no need to over-specify to cover unknown impedance swings caused by poorly-designed passive crossovers.

2. The treble amp can be matched to the treble unit and won't lose power when a bass transietn comes along - so no danger of the tweeter getting blown by the amp running into clipping

3. Less signal crosstalk between drivers

4. It is easier to build precise crossovers at the small signal level before the power amp than after the amp

5. Any compensation for phase or time alignment for the relative positions of the drive units is much easier to achieve with an active crossover

6. There are considerable savings to be made by integrating the two amps and electronic crossover in the same box as the loudspeakers. This more than offsets the need for an additional pair of amplifiers (assuming a two way system).

7. They are more versatile in a studio environment where they become pretty much plug and play, given the standard voltage levels employed in studios.

 

The net result should be cleaner and cheaper than an amplifier and pair of passives. It's also more elegant, except for the little matter of the extra mains cable.

 

[tfarney]

and...correct me if I'm wrong Ashley, but don't actives send the appropriate frequencies to the appropriate driver directly, rather than sending the full range to the box, then attempting to passively filter frequencies out of the feed to the tweeter?

 

And a fair warning to all, following up on Ashley's note above: While headphones don't present a sound stage at all like the speakers do, really good ones, like high end Senns, AKGs, Beyers, Audio Technicas, etc. are devoid of the upper midrange harshness that is present in all but the very best speakers at high listening levels. You probably don't hear it. But if you put on a great pair of cans and listen to them exclusively for a few months, you'll hear it for the rest of your life. I'm absolutely convinced that this is what many audiophiles are dutifully and expensively trying to eradicate with DACs, amps, cdps, etc, etc, and this is why they keep searching and spending. They're looking in the wrong place.

 

Tim

 

[AV-OCD]

jury-rigged, improvised, or home-made (usually with extremely cheap or sub-standard components).

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ghetto

 

[Abstraction]

Ashley--

I am really not in the market for any kind of gear right now. As I explained in an earlier post, I do not really like audio equipment. I try to get a system that I can live with, and forget about it for as long as I can, and listen to the music. But I have been living with audio for a long time, and it is like dope: you have to keep increasing the dose to keep the same effect. But I think I am about ready to quit thinking about gear for a couple of years. I need another big hard drive, but otherwise....

 

I am curious, however. Do you have a dealer in New York? I would go hear your active speakers.

 

Your design theory sounds right. But most half decently thought out high-end stuff is pretty close to the limit. Reproduced sound only gets so good. Then it is a matter of taste. All very expensive Scotch is good, but there is a considerable range.

 

The AC requirements, if I were looking for new gear, would be wearisome. For some reason, the AC in my current neighborhood if the filthy--my biggest problem in some ways. Much of my current gear is battery powered.