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Hifi Vs Computer Audiophile DAC’s


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Agree with you overall as having read some of your posts you are spot on with common sense in spades.

The analog delivery has some potential in that it is not compressed and as you already know can on the right system present a fuller, richer sound than the typical 44K CD, DAC notwithstanding.

 

As for DACs, well I'm no expert as I'm using a Lavry DA10 and it's a fine unit. Are there others better for 5K at five times the price, well maybe but I think the laws of diminishing returns applies and folks will take a 2-3% improvement and magnify as significant where to most listeners it doesn't even rate those minimal percentages.

 

You are of course absolutely correct about loudspeaker distortion. I happen to have replaced my traditional 803 Nautilus B&W speakers with the four year project headed by NHT with their xD system.

By any measure it's at the top of the heap and even if one doesn't like them as they are a smaller less weighty sound, they are easily the most accurate by measurement.

 

Just today I was playing a song and had to stop and look at the speakers, marveling how I easily could hear what had not been heard before. And with all that accuracy, it's the most interesting thing that with lower distortion you can play the volume at 95db as measured by a Rat Shack meter and it doesn't feel anywhere as "hot" as the 803s which were most definitely topped out at that level.

 

In fact, I've pushed the NHT Xds to 105 db plus and it doesn't ever sound harsh. A remarkable advancement that matches well with the digital domain.

 

My current system: Mac Mini-Sonic Wave glass toslink cable - Lavry DA10 - PS Audio GCP 200 Preamp - NHT XdA - 2.1 NHT xD speakers.

 

Yes, this is my first post.

 

intel mac mini 1.6 Core Solo via WD 500 GB - Lavry DA10 DAC - PS Audio GCP 200 Preamp - NHT x-D 2.1 & modified Sony SACD 777ES SACD all sitting on a fine tuned Grand Prix Audio Monaco stand.

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"As for DACs, well I'm no expert as I'm using a Lavry DA10 and it's a fine unit. Are there others better for 5K at five times the price, well maybe but I think the laws of diminishing returns applies and folks will take a 2-3% improvement and magnify as significant where to most listeners it doesn't even rate those minimal percentages."

 

The law of diminishing returns is certainly a valid reason for not buying a $5000 dac, but some people are willing to spend that kind of money (and much more) to gain only a few percentages in improvement, which is perfectly alright with me. People that strive to obtain the best sound possible and are fortunate enough to be able to persue this goal can't be bothered with price/performance ratios , I guess. Besides, we should not ignore the pride of ownership that comes with a nice audiophile machine with all it's bells and whistles.

 

In some of the posts I got the feeling that comparisons were made between cheaper pro-audio dacs vs expensive "audiophile" dacs, and it could almost sound like there was very little or nothing to justify the purchase of an audiophile dac. I'm sure the technological advances have narrowed the gap between the cheaper pro-audio and the most expensive audiophile dacs significantly, but while I understand the point of this comparison (like "we get much more value for our hard earned money with pro-audio gear") I still find the comparison a little odd. I think this argument tends to ignore that there is some very expensive pro-audio gear out there as well, and I find it hard to believe that the sound quality is almost the same as the cheaper pro-audio stuff. I believe there are differences in sound quality with pro-audio gear as well and different pro-audio brands can have their own "sound signature".

One not so insignificant factor that makes products aimed at the audiophile market more expensive is design. A chair from Ikea may fulfill your basic need to sit down once a while but a (danish) designer chair may be much nicer to look at and makes you much happier to own one.

Just a thought.

 

JRiver MC22 -> Merging+NADAC (8CH) -> Bryston Cubed -> Vivid Giya G2/Vivid C1/4xVivid V1W

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I used a Fairlight in 1988 in - this was at the end of its reign when it became clear that its claim of "future proof" was not quite going to happen. Big ol' 8 inch floppies I seem to recall...certainly very big anyway. Definitely a computer with an Operating System, so presumably a DAC. We also had some old Moogs. The Moogs we had were not computers, rather they looked like a giant Battleship games with pegs and cables you plugged in. After the Fairlight we used Atari 512/1040ST computers for midi based stuff via Rolands, with Akai reigning as the sampler du jour, and recording onto 16-track tape via SMPTE. Didn't start hard drive recording until the early 90s with the Apple Power Macs and the first ProTools rig. Ah...6 SCSI drives wired together to get enough drive space. Sorry...not contributing anything to the thread, just reminiscing...I'll get my coat.

 

Alix/Voyage mpd -> Valab NOS DAC (modded) -> Linn Majic I -> B&W CM7

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I have recently purchased an Apogee Duet and the sound is very musical with a large three dimensional sound stage, and on good recordings you can pinpoint the performers on that stage.

 

It is a two channel firewire audio interface made for Apple Mac computers, and can be used as a DAC between your Mac and your stereo. You can also use it to record using Garageband, Logic, Final Cut Studio etc.

 

I recently auditioned a Weiss DAC2 firewire DAC (which is the Recording Industry version of the Minerva), and have found the Apogee Duet to sound as good. However the price is what really persuaded me, the Weiss DAC2 is AU$5,000 to AU$6,000 (Australian dollars), while the Apogee Duet was AU$779, about one seventh the price. It is available for that price at the Australian Apple Store with free shipping.

 

So yes I think the best sounding equipment for use with your computer music server, is to be found in the Recording Industry field. This is the equipment being used to make recordings you play on these systems.

 

I'm sick of paying the Audiophile High End Tax, where comparable equipment is priced at 5 to 10 times what you should be paying.

 

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"I recently auditioned a Weiss DAC2 firewire DAC (which is the Recording Industry version of the Minerva), and have found the Apogee Duet to sound as good. However the price is what really persuaded me, the Weiss DAC2 is AU$5,000 to AU$6,000 (Australian dollars), while the Apogee Duet was AU$779, about one seventh the price."

 

The Duet is a great example of what we're talking about. It can be had for $495, US, and it is not merely a DAC, but a fully functional field recording interface with a full set of analog inputs and outputs (send in mics, guitars, keyboards, etc, send out to powered monitors), a software package, an analog to digital converter, and a portable headphone amplifier reported to be on par with most dedicated audiophile head amps in the $500 - $700 range (what's wrong with this picture?). How much would the DAC (which, by the way, is not a chip purchased from Wolfson or Burr-Brown, but a proprietary design of Apogee) inside of this remarkable little piece of multi-tasking technology cost, in it's own simple little box? Your guess is as good as mine, but I think substantially less than half the cost of the Duet is a reasonable guess.

 

So to the poster who asked if I was suggesting that a simple, inexpensive project studio DAC could actually perform as well as an audiophile unit at many multiples of its cost...yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting. My apologies to all who have spent more than a few hundred dollars on a DAC.

 

Tim

 

I confess. I\'m an audiophool.

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"I haven't yet heard the Apogee ( I will ) but I did compare the RME to the Weiss , and I found that the Weiss grabbed my attention and made me sit up and want to listen, whereas the RME in comparison was a little lacklustre, the RME is cheaper of course but imho not a bargain."

 

RME?

 

Could you help me understand the advantages of the Weiss by making some attempt to describe them by their performance characteristics? Did it grab your attention because it seemed to have better dynamic range? Transient response? Treble extension? Bass control? Did it make you sit up and listen because the imaging gave you a clearer picture of instrument placement? A graphic, tangible feel for the space the music was played in? Better differentiation between subtle timbres?

 

Tim

 

I confess. I\'m an audiophool.

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"So to the poster who asked if I was suggesting that a simple, inexpensive project studio DAC could actually perform as well as an audiophile unit at many multiples of its cost...yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting. My apologies to all who have spent more than a few hundred dollars on a DAC."

 

Tim,

 

The Weiss DAC2 is a pro audio unit as well. Are you comparing pro-audio vs audiophile or cheap vs expensive?

 

One more thing, have you compared the cheapest Sony cd-player to their top of the line ES models? What makes the huge difference in SQ there? (yes, there is a big difference, no matter if you like Sony or not). If it isn't the dac section what could cause the difference? Is it the drive, the powersupply, or..?

 

JRiver MC22 -> Merging+NADAC (8CH) -> Bryston Cubed -> Vivid Giya G2/Vivid C1/4xVivid V1W

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"One more thing, have you compared the cheapest Sony cd-player to their top of the line ES models? What makes the huge difference in SQ there?"

 

?

 

Is this 'huge difference in SQ" documented somewhere, by way

of audible evidence, rather than just 'someone said so'?

If yes, I would like to read said documentation, please do share.

 

Otherwise ...

 

http://www.bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf

 

 

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"The Weiss DAC2 is a pro audio unit as well. Are you comparing pro-audio vs audiophile or cheap vs expensive?"

 

I could go either way, depending on the individual units in question. I haven't heard the Sonys.

 

All DACs and amplifiers don't sound the same, but they should. And when they are well designed and competently executed without someone deliberately building in a signature sound (coloration), they come very, very close.

 

If you hear two DACs or two amps that sound dramatically different, regardless of price or target market, something is very wrong with one or both of them. Period.

 

Tim

 

 

 

I confess. I\'m an audiophool.

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I'm glad you got the amiable tone of my post, but I'm afraid your applying levels of scientific scrutiny that just don't make sense to me with regards to peoples opinions about what they hear.

 

Moreover, I'm not submitting a paper (for you to grade), I'm just sharing an opinion - take it or leave it...as it's ALL opinions anyway, yours, mine, Chris, Ashley, Tim, et al. There is NO absolute sound, no one perfect representation that will sound 'right' to everyone, and that everyone will agree is correct.

 

as to your question above, I assume others can hear differences, because I can, so I give them the benefit of the doubt as being well intentioned individuals sharing information for other's enjoyment of music.

 

different strokes for different folks I guess, but I don;t see what you hope to gain by trotting out an article every time someone describes a difference that you don't (believe they can) hear. To continually suggest that no one could have actually heard a difference unless they prove it to your satisfaction seems to be pretty big baggage to bring into an audio forum, that's all I'm saying.

 

anyway, we come from two different sides of this issue, so perhaps we'd be best suited to let this one lie - at least for a while - until we've developed more of a common understanding, e.g., our shared opinions of gratuitous Mac bashing.

 

cheers,

clay

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Some years ago when we were considering whether to continue with Multi Bit or switch to Delta Sigma DACs, we discovered that manufacturers usually offer Evaluation Boards for companies like us to play with. These comprise of their DAC built to the highest possible standard so that it can be connected to a digital source and into a hi fi system for evaluation and so that various measurements can be made to help designers get theirs right. We bought samples of these from the front runners and we rigged up a system that enabled us to blind listening test them against each other by pressing the buttons of an IR handset. All levels were carefully matched and care was taken to minimise any click as we switched. Any audible differences as existed were so small as to be irrelevant. There were no clear winners, which is what you'd expect since they all measured the same.

 

We did it again some years later when DACs had further improved and we got the same result. So if the people designing the chipsets and telling the likes of us how to do it can manage, that then so should any self respecting DAC manufacturer. Sadly it appears that some still can't read the instructions that come with these things!

 

However, and this is vitally important to understand; Level differences make a huge difference, even during scientifically conducted tests. You'll always prefer the loudest, often when it's worse.

 

The biggest problem of all is our hearing and perception. We humans are more flawed than the kit we're buying! Elsewhere in General on this Forum is a group of people hearing differences between USB cables, which is impossible. People need to learn respect for science and to remember that it's hard enough to distinguish between things that will make big difference. The last thing hi fi ever needed is golden eared "experts" complicating matters by imagining differences that don't exist!

 

As for DACs, there is no question that they are right or wrong and I'd like to think that with a bit of caution and some thought, most people would be able to tell which is which. There is no such thing as a "voiced" DAC, just correctly or incorrectly implemented ones.

 

Sorry to be so blunt, but IMO if we want a good sound, we've got to start by having good ground rules.

 

Ash

 

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The amp test article was very interesting. Makes me question my belief that I can hear the difference between the DAC in my Sony pre-amp, and the Benchmark DAC1. More than that... I also wonder if the differences I hear between MP3 and Apple Lossless are real.

 

Ah, well, no matter. I'm just delighted with the music from my system. Good enough.

 

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  • 1 year later...

I bought my Apogee Duet more than a year ago.

 

If I had a choice now I would have gone with a USB one from another brand.

 

My Apogee Duet has had a noise and hiss problem since I got it. Other users have reported the same problem, but there is no simple explanation or solution (I've heard that it's use constitutes a "ground loop" and that using a three-pronged adaptor on power plugs may solve the problem.. but my country uses two-pronged). Apogee hasn't acknowledged the problem and still claims the Apogee Duet's sound in the superlatives.

 

I've learnt to live with it, since you can minimize the noise (that sounds like a fax machine) by putting the headphone monitor on max. and adjusting the amplifier volume. Still, since I don't use the recording function... the noise would make the whole thing pretty useless!

 

I would appreciate if anyone has had this problem.. and a solution to help!

 

 

 

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  • 4 months later...

My first Duet had an awful noise when selecting 24/96. It was replaced by a new unit on which this problem was solved. However some noise problems remain. Part of the problems were solved by eliminating the "ground loop" by isolating the ground plug for all the equipments (preamps, amps; bad practice I now). An important part of the remaining noise was produced by a faulty laptop power supply. Also an old CD drive when powered produced an audible noise. As a conclusion every piece of hardware involving a switching mode power supply can generate lots of noise and only a patient search allow for identifying the origin.

My system is free of noise now: iMac + Duet + Linn Kairn + Linn LK85.

And ... I'm very happy of having the Duet; nice soundstage, rich bass, high frequencies a bit crisp but not impacting the pleasure of the audition. I use the Duet to digitize my vinyl collection together with Adobe Audition for declicking and denoising. The result is very good.

 

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