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Ideas needed how to mark location for speakers.


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Just driving to work and I think I have the ultimate solution if you are one of those unlimited-budget-audiophiles: a Humanoid Robot. Not only will it position your loudspeakers it can even fetch you a cup of coffee or give you a back rub if you fancy one :)

 

2011 Mac Mini (Lion) -> Audirvana Plus -> Audioquest Cinnamon USB -> Schiit Bifrost -> Audioquest Diamondback -> Rotel RA-1520 -> Analysis Plus Oval 12/2 -> Klipsch RF-62 II

 

"If it sounds good, it is good ..." -Duke Ellington

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I'm not talking down to you. I just get a bit riled up when people come up with unnecessary complication to a straightford problem, simply and clearly stated. Now the guy below me is really taking the piss (which I was not), even if he does add a smiley to pretend he isn't. And, like me, he is not taking it out of you, but out of the 'complicated answer' guys.

 

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You started with a straightforward problem, described with a touch of humour. Now we have got to laser rangefinders as the most popular solution. Have you actually tried to USE one of these things for short ranges, for which their design is not optimised?

 

Yes, in hundreds of successful installations and shows, all over North America.

 

The ones that I use are specifically for use with these sorts of distances.

 

Since you quite rightly brought actual usage into the conversation, may I use your own comment in a question to you?

 

Because I have to wonder if you have actually tried to USE one of these things

 

Holding it square to the speaker, wall etc. is not easy.

 

Compared to what?

 

The previous guy mentioned toe in. Just use a couple of sticks, it is quicker, more accurate, and simpler.

 

Not even close to the accuracy we have available using the laser rangefinder.

 

And the sonic results stand out as proof for hundreds, maybe thousands of users.

 

This is not some theory - it is put into action every day, all over the world.

 

The unit I have sold for about $129 in the US Lowe's hardware store around three years ago.

 

Oh, and lasers also make matching toe-in far more accurate, once you decide what sounds best. For that, I use a $29 laser leveler.

 

OK, I'll admit that all these lasers in the room looks a bit like star wars, but it makes making changes and being able to document them much quicker and most importantly, they yield far greater accuracy.

 

Stereophony is only an illusion, so getting the interchannel timing right adds greatly to its effect.

 

Various speakers, electronics, cable, etc. on loan for manufacturers' evaluation.

More or less permanently in use:

 

Schiit Iggy (latest), Ayre QB-9 DSD, Ayre Codex, Uptone Audio ISO Regen/LPS-1 Power supply, Berkeley Audio Alpha USB, PS Audio LanRover, Small Green Computer, Sonore ultraRendu, gigaFOIL4 ethernet/optical filter - Keces PS-3 power supply, (3) MBPs - stripped down for music only,  AQ Diamond USB & Ethernet, Transparent USB, Curious USB, LH Lightspeed split USB, Halide USB DAC, Audirvana +, Pure Music, ASR Emitter II Exclusive Blue amp, Ayre K-5xeMP preamp, Pass X-1 preamp, Quicksilver Mid-Mono Amps, Pass XA-30.5 amp, Duelund ICs & Speaker Cables, Paul Hynes SR-7 power supply, Grand Prix Audio Monaco Isolation racks & F1 shelves, Tannoy Canterbury SEs w/custom Duelund crossovers and stands, 2 REL 212SEs, AV RoomService EVPs, ASC Tube Traps, tons of CDs, 30 IPS masters, LPs.

 

http://www.getbettersound.com

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Well, just color me stupid Mark.

 

And, no, in fact I have not actually tried to USE one of these things - obviously the folks (other than Jim Smith) who were throwing the idea around, had not. Rather, to me, it seemed like it could be an easy, accurate and repeatable method. (Not to mention the cool factor!)

 

But perhaps it's not so easy, though it was first mentioned by an expert in optimizing a room for best sound quality.

 

In my opinion it is only obsessives who worry about an inch or two

 

Perhaps I'm "an obsessive" as well, but I have in fact found that an inch or two can in fact, in some cases, make a noticeable difference. And GoldenEars I am not.

 

Btw, the Bosch model mentioned (according to their website anyway) is accurate to 1/16". Seems optimised enough to me.

 

Rascal

 

A: Mac Mini => Peachtree Nova => LFD Integrated Zero Mk.III => Harbeth Compact 7ES-3 | Musical Fidelity X-CAN V-8 => AKG K 701

B: Airport Express = > Benchmark DAC1 => Rega Brio-R => B&W DM 601 S2

C: Airport Express => AudioEngine A2

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With the speakers in their proper locations, hold a simple laser POINTER (sorry - no fancy dancy measuring device needed) to either speaker side, aiming anywhere on the front wall - preferably the baseboard, but it could be higher - even above furniture level. Have an assistant poke a stick-pin in at that point. Repeat the same holding to the front (or back) of the speaker with the laser pointing to the side wall.

 

Repeat for the other speaker for a total of 4 stick-pins.

 

You now have 2 points which are reference targets to accurately repeat the setups including toe-in for each speaker. The stick pins can now be removed as desired. All you have to do is find those tiny holes when it comes time to set up again. Not that hard to do since you'll know where to look by then.

 

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You have used it hundreds of times, so you are an 'expert'. The OP isn't.

 

My speakers are positioned to a quarter of an inch, maybe less. With a steel rule. Quick, cheap, simple.and every bit as accurate as any laser. If I had known exactly where I wanted them when I started I would have used a pre-measured and cut stick, maybe with pre-measured intermediate markings. Even quicker as I don't need to then mentally note, or write down, my measurements.

 

It's only the inexperienced beginner, or someone trying to impress, that uses unnecessarily complicated equipment for anything. Your position is different. Apparently you have to do it in lots of different locations and different speaker

placings to suit the rooms. So you can't use pre-cut sticks and a laser is probably quicker than a tape measure in such a situation. But we do not have to do what you are doing.

 

You say a laser gives far greater accuracy than a rule or stick. There is no reason whatsoever why that should be the case.

 

I assume from what you say about the accuracy you say is needed that you only admit one visitor at a time to your demo, and make him stand precisely on a marked spot. Maybe even clamp his head. If your gear is that tight on it's 'sweet spot' maybe you should consider better gear. My speakers are Tannoy Kensingtons. Probably total rubbish.

 

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You might note that I did, in my original append, say "But I do admit that my own speakers are positioned within a quarter of an inch", thus gently saying I am as obsessive as the next guy.

 

I am not saying these things are less accurate that a rule, though the Bosch spec demonstrates they are no better. Rather believe them than an 'expert', who is not a manufacturer, saying they are 'far more accurate'.

 

The accuracy is down to its ease of use. I have one, for different, more long-range reasons. The difficulty, which is only important at short ranges, is lining up the measuring face, which is fairly large compared to a stick or rule, with what you are trying to place.

 

And again (sigh) we don't clamp our heads.

 

Also (this time without a sigh) if the 'sweet spot' is so limited we should consider better gear.

 

I fly as a hobby. They line up helicopter blades with a held up broom and some whitewash on the bristles. Don't faff around with lasers.

 

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Hey Mark,

 

I agree with you completely about the precut stick(s) and the simplicity/ease of that approach. In fact I suggested a one stick version early on (for a no-toe in setup). The only time it might not work as easily is if one can't lay the stick(s) on the floor because there isn't a clear path to the wall.

 

People get excited because suddenly they have an excuse to buy a cool gadget--I know I do. I've often bought gadgets--including a crummy laser measure, only to regret having spent the money afterwards, as they often end up laying around reminding me that I'm not using them.

 

-Chris

 

 

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bits of string with small knots in to mark correct length: nice & easy to store and cheap. I suspect just as accurate as a laser unless the string gets wet (don't let the dog lick the string).

 

Grimm Mu-1 > Mola Mola Makua/DAC > Luxman m900u > Vivid Audio Kaya 90

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Exactly. My laser toy plane alignment gadget is just that, a gadget. And of course its battery is always flat when I want to use it, like all these things.

 

And of course, no one will ever respond to 'Do you clamp your punters heads in a demo?' will they? ;) But they are there purely to sell stuff. None of this is rocket science, certainly not flogging it.

 

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I said to myself WTF is he talking about "Punter's head?" He never mentioned.... Then slowly something trickled into the back of my mind, something about furiners, dem peeples from somewhere else kinda weird.

 

So I pulled out my trusty Funk and Wagnils, also known as the OED and sure enough "punter" is your basic person involved in something, Brit slang style. So, now that I know what you're talking about....

 

I always clamp my head (even though I'm no stinkin' punter) when doing listening tests.:) (and of course I laser it up properly first)

 

-Chris

 

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You may have gently pointed out you're as obsessive as the next guy, but then get around to quoting "an expert" to imply that the laser-interested folks are "stupid" but you are "clever". Or maybe I misread something.

 

My draw for me to the laser tools has nothing to do with greater accuracy over a ruler. It has to do with making my process easier, quicker, accurate and repeatable between moves of the speakers and listening position. I wouldn't use a straight edge as I'd be limited to the length of the ruler, a tape measure slips and pulls; Both make me get down on all fours, and I'd rather not. Neither helps me with toe-in.

 

As far as this idea of a limited sweet spot, I think this somewhat misses the point. In some cases speaker placement may in fact increase the sweet spot. Not to mention effects on soundstage, imaging, etc. Jim Smith's work, which I for one respect, is all about not buying better gear, but bringing out the most of what we've got.

 

And I have no idea why anyone would compare helicopter blade alignment to speaker placement, but I promise you sir that I will not "faff around" with lasers. If I knew what the hell that meant!

 

Rascal

 

A: Mac Mini => Peachtree Nova => LFD Integrated Zero Mk.III => Harbeth Compact 7ES-3 | Musical Fidelity X-CAN V-8 => AKG K 701

B: Airport Express = > Benchmark DAC1 => Rega Brio-R => B&W DM 601 S2

C: Airport Express => AudioEngine A2

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The helicopter thing was an 'aside' to give an example of how true, Federal Aviation Authority certified professionals, rather than self-appointed 'experts' do not use a complicated process where a basic one works fine. A new process would in any case probably require certification, or at least the instrument would, and periodic calibration against a 'standard'. You don't have to do that with a broom.

 

But unlike the OP, 'we' do not need a 'process' anyway. I don't move my speakers around all the time, does anyone? You mention getting down on all fours. How often are you going to do this. And if you don't like sticks, how about a cardboard template shaped to the toe-in and stand-out, momentarily placed to a tiny 'separation mark' on the wall, and useable on the floor or at waist height. A lot quicker than either a laser or stick, and once cut, impossible to make a mistake. A laser seems to be favoured simply because it is a 'gadget. You have to carefully read it in several places per speaker, for a start. And, as I said, 'we' are going to do this rarely. The process, if any, consists of finding the best spot, and then recording it, with cardboard, laser, tape etc, so it is repeatable on the rare occasions we need to repeat it. Find the best spot first, by ear, not the other way around.

 

Re Jim's book, An hour ago I came to the point of ordering it, even half filling in the form, as it seems useful, is reasonably priced, even including UK shipping. I changed my mind, but may change it back again. I will probably learn something, but I won't learn a thing by fiddling about with a tape measure, a ruler, or a laser. They are all just measuring sticks.

 

 

 

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I don't move my speakers around all the time, does anyone?

 

I read that as part of the OP's requirement: the ability to quickly, repeatedly and repeatably change from a more wifely acceptable placement to a more audibly acceptable placement. (Though I'm thinking surely there must be some arrangement that will satisfy both requirements at once, rather than all this f***ing - stands for "faffing" - around.)

 

Template sounds like a good idea, though we don't know about any physical obstacles that may make positioning a template impractical. And perhaps the OP would rather be holding a smallish laser pointer than repeatedly hauling templates or measuring sticks in and out of the nearest closet. So as usual there may be various considerations in play. Will be interested to read what the OP finally decides to do.

 

BTW, I'm interested in what gave you the notion that a smallish "sweet spot" where the stereo imaging is best is an indication of low quality speakers. No need for "Clockwork Orange"-type associated equipment for me to stay in the sweet spot; I just have my listening spot on the sofa, seems to work fine.

 

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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I do move my speakers around on a regular basis. As the OP stated, my optimal speaker position (much farther into the room) is not aesthetically pleasing or particularly safe. I move them closer to the back wall if I have guests or on days the housekeeper comes. I am still in the process of finding optimal positions for both these configurations, since they are new speakers. Since they were a sizable investment (for me), I want to bring them to their fullest potential (or at least make them sound as good as they sounded at the dealers!), though this will undoubtedly take more than speaker positions.

 

The template idea, if I understand it correctly, would be more doable if my speakers were closer to the back well - I bring them out 3-4' at times. Seems this would require a large piece of "cardboard", and could get unruly.

 

A laser may be in part favored because it is a "gadget", but that's ok with me. I think it might be fun (if it's not frustrating) and I don't have many toys, I mean gadgets. My friends will be even further impressed with how high-tech I am - and also, nowadays chicks love the geeky stuff! But I haven't yet pulled the trigger on a laser purchase.

 

Jim's book seems full of good advice, though much of it (for lazy me) not so easy to implement - at least not as easy as buying a new piece of gear. I've taken a few of his suggestions, to good effect. And you get the newsletters. I'll be curious what you think it.

 

Rascal

 

A: Mac Mini => Peachtree Nova => LFD Integrated Zero Mk.III => Harbeth Compact 7ES-3 | Musical Fidelity X-CAN V-8 => AKG K 701

B: Airport Express = > Benchmark DAC1 => Rega Brio-R => B&W DM 601 S2

C: Airport Express => AudioEngine A2

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Hello Mark,

 

I have sent an e-mail to your hotmail address.

 

Various speakers, electronics, cable, etc. on loan for manufacturers' evaluation.

More or less permanently in use:

 

Schiit Iggy (latest), Ayre QB-9 DSD, Ayre Codex, Uptone Audio ISO Regen/LPS-1 Power supply, Berkeley Audio Alpha USB, PS Audio LanRover, Small Green Computer, Sonore ultraRendu, gigaFOIL4 ethernet/optical filter - Keces PS-3 power supply, (3) MBPs - stripped down for music only,  AQ Diamond USB & Ethernet, Transparent USB, Curious USB, LH Lightspeed split USB, Halide USB DAC, Audirvana +, Pure Music, ASR Emitter II Exclusive Blue amp, Ayre K-5xeMP preamp, Pass X-1 preamp, Quicksilver Mid-Mono Amps, Pass XA-30.5 amp, Duelund ICs & Speaker Cables, Paul Hynes SR-7 power supply, Grand Prix Audio Monaco Isolation racks & F1 shelves, Tannoy Canterbury SEs w/custom Duelund crossovers and stands, 2 REL 212SEs, AV RoomService EVPs, ASC Tube Traps, tons of CDs, 30 IPS masters, LPs.

 

http://www.getbettersound.com

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My original idea of a plywood or cardboard template still seems the best tack, but is not exclusive of the laser. I assumed (but did not state) that there was a particular location the OP wanted to get back to.

 

If it is not a static measurement, them something akin to Mark's stick would work nicely. A nail in the floor or a hook in the baseboard on the wall behind the speakers with a straight/flat stick with a hole in it should do nicely. Make a mark at the outside back corner and the inside front corner (assuming toe in). Flip the device over for the other channel.

 

I think that is about as simple as it can get while still offering feedback as you move the speaker around. The laser will help get your there quicker...

 

Use pencil!

 

Forrest:

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DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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I did say 'except the OP we don't move them about...'. My quite large speakers are close to the wall, either side of flat TV which is closely attached to the wall. There were very close, but I moved them forward a bit as they were too boomy. A few inches made a big difference.

 

I am always tinkering, and am not against gadgets, though most of mine are model plane related. But they always end up gathering dust. To me a laser is a hard way of doing it, if only because its iPhone-sized case gets in the way. And some of them are pointless. My car (to introduce another red herring) has an automatic transmission. Also a rev counter. What's the point as the engine revs are not under my control?

 

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The US space program spent many thousands of dollars inventing a ball point pen that would work in vacuum and zero gravity.

 

But if not for this, then we wouldn't have the Seinfeld "Astronaut Pen" episode!

 

Back slightly more on topic, as noted, there may be reasons why a template is a bit less convenient; or if convenience is roughly equal, nothing wrong with investing a relative pittance in a little gadget love. Handy for estimating when you want to repaint, too.

 

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Someone said you have to haul out the sticks (I'm getting tired just imagining that), and what if its far into the room, etc.

 

So, I'll be a little clearer, about the sticks version anyway. This is for after you've identified exactly where you want the speakers to be, as the OP has. Let's say the the outside back of the speaker is 5' from the wall and the inside back 4'11.

 

1.)Buy or acquire one or two (you only need one) sticks 5' or longer. Preferable an inch or so wide with parallel (flat) ends.

 

2.)Cut the stick to 5' (if needed,) and place it at the further from the wall side of the speaker (out side edge) put a little dot where the stick meets the wall.

 

3.) Move the stick over next to the inside back of the speaker (closer to the wall side) and put another dot on the wall, and a line on the stick denoting 4' 11"

 

4.) Now you can place the hell out of your speakers at a moments notice. As to having to "haul out the stick." Consider standing it in an inconspicuous corner, lay it under the couch, lay it along the baseboard, paint it a lovely red, make a mini totem pole out of it....

 

If your two speakers are different distances from the wall you still only need one stick, just put 3 or 4 marks on it. And to be safe you can get a longer than necessary stick just in case you decide to put the speakers further out into the room in the future.

 

The problem with the laser for me is threefold. 1. It's more difficult to make sure you're line to the mark is paralell to the side wall. 2. That you have to futz a bit to get all things lined up correctly. Either you have to get down on the floor and mark the spots temporarily everytime or you have to laser and hold/move the speakers at the same time. 3.You have to pay $100 or more for the laser.

 

The upside to the laser is that if you've got the $100+ you've got a pretty cool laser.

 

However, I think I'd still use the stick method because it's just so freaking simple, and if I had the spare cash I'd buy a laser just to measure stuff. It could come in pretty handy, just not for this.

 

-Chris

 

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This thread is really pathetic.

 

Mark the GD speakers at two opposing corners. Use finger nail polish, or pins in the carpet, or dots on the carpet or tape or whatever. Forget the overly complicated lasers or anything else which is BS. Over and out.

 

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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You’re probably right, and that is probably what I’ll need do (either that or use sticks, strings, lights or lasers), but this is a bit like trying to design a really good concrete toboggan. There have been some very good ideas.

 

As Voltaire once said, “essence sans plomb seulement.” (... or was that Proust?)

 

 

Peachtree Audio DAC-iT, Dynaco Stereo 70 Amp w/ Curcio triode cascode conversion, MCM Systems .7 Monitors

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