Computer Based Music Server vs Digital Player

[mwheelerk]

If you operate a computer based music server (I am on a Mac Mini with iTunes and Pure Music) have you or would you consider a Digital Player (Bryston BDP-1, Naim, Cambridge Audio etc.)? What are the benefits or percieved benefits of Digital Players? Are there particular shortcomings to these players? If you own a Digital player what were your reasons for going in this direction? What do you prefer about it? Is there anything particular lacking in meeting your needs?

 

I am trying to think a little bit towards the future. Sound quality would always be a prime consideration but functionality is also a concern. Would it be good to be free of using a particular OS? I have some concerns of where iTunes may be going (To the cloud?) especially with Match. File formats, the ability to display artwork (I enjoy that) and other data (lyrics, liner notes etc would be welcome) .

 

I have enjoyed having the Mac Mini directly integrated to my audio system without dependency on a network for playback. What is your take on the direction of server based playback for the future, an adapted computer server system or dedicated digital player?

 

[StereoRoom]

Great question! My setup is very similar to yours, except i have an Apple Lossless library on network storage. I arrived at the Mac Mini after stepping away from a Sonos setup with a desire to try some higher resolution files. I first tried the PS Audio PerfectWave and Bridge, but didn't care for the way required the server side to be setup. I too have been curious about the Bryston player and would have no problem moving my library from network to local usb storage, but if Sonos were to begin to support higher resolutions, i would probably go back to their way of doing things.

 

[Mark Powell]

I have the new Naim ND5 XS (approx 4000 dollars in the US perhaps? I'm in the UK) and Windows 7, JRiver, a laptop, a Musical Fidelity V-Link, and a Cambridge Dacmagic. Drives a Yamaha AV receiver (soon to be replaced) and used only as a preamp, a McIntosh 275, and a pair of Tannoy Kensington (large) speakers.

 

I think the Naim sound quality is superior. Perhaps because the internal DAC is superior to the V-Link/Cambridge Dacmagic. Also because all its internals are optimised for audio. As the Naim has connections for an external DAC I may try the Dacmagic on it to hear what happens.

 

You can lose flexibility. Although the Naim has no way of ripping or even playing CDs, nor an internal disk you need a way of doing this, so I still have to have the laptop and a NAS, but not the Dacmagic. Naim do market a ripping NAS, the UnitiServ, but it is more expensive than the ND5 XS itself, and it rips only to WAV. WAV only is fine for me, but not the price. Naim market other boxes that do contain a ripping drive and a disk and they are lower cost than the ND5 XS plus the UnitiServ, but you still need an NAS for backup (if you are wise). You can of course forget the computer except when ripping/downloading.

 

Some personal opinions.

 

1) Do not buy a product such as a Sonos, a Squeezebox, or even the expensive Meridian Soolos. None of them are true 'audiophile' products and if your existing setup works as it should (or can be made to do) you will quickly be dissatisfied with any of them.

 

2) You will not, no matter how much you pay, better the sound quality of any Naim server. One or two may be equal, but not superior at this time. None are better at any price. Period. Their approach to 'Everything Matters' borders on the fanatical and their products are never price-limited. (I have no connection with them whatsover, and I did not buy it and then justify it, I bought it because I believe these things to be true.)

 

Why did I buy it? Not possible to get better sound (you could try other DACs of course, but the internal one is very good), no cables trailing about the place (though it has wireless ethernet they recommend wired), it looks like a 'HiFi' product (because it is) and it sits well on the rack.

 

[scobek]

The DP would have to be able to play both AIFF and ALAC files and perfectly integrate itself with iTunes (to read my many playlists). Not sure if anything does at the moment.

 

I definitely like the idea of an audio-optimized component reading files off an ethernet NAS drive (I don't trust the air), but most of these DACless DPs seem way overpriced for what they actually do (and often don't).

 

Your computer's always going to be the real heart of your system anyway, if only to rip and download music files in the first place. Personally I'm happy to hold off the DP until later -- after I get my Nagra, Quads and bigger flat.

 

[Mark Powell]

That's why I avoid Apple. All their stuff is proprietary and specifically designed to lock you in, (though they have finally opened up ALAC). This very much limits your choice. Which is precisely what they intend.

 

Computer the heart of the system? For me, it is now only used 'musically' once every couple of weeks. That, though I forget to mention it in my first append, was the reason I bought the Naim.

 

[barrows]

I would consider a digital player. Primarily for improved SQ reasons. A dedicated, built for audio, server style product (Sonore, Auraliti, etc) has the advantage of not needing to be able to render video, not having to browse the web, and a million other functions which computer based servers do. It can be purpose built to only serve audio files, and to do that exceptionally well.

Lately I have become frustrated with the tweaks necessary to get the best performance out of a computer based system (fun for those who like to tweak, maybe, but I'd rather be listening). Things like re-booting Pure Music between albums make the sound change, it's a pain, and clearly points out that a well implemented purpose built server should offer better sound.

 

If using Itunes is a primary concern for you, then a purpose built server will not be satisfactory.

 

Personally, I would prefer a dedicated, USB out only, file server, with no onboard storage or ripping capability, controlled via wired LAN, by any laptop on the network, and capable of full operation with no Internet connection. It might be nice if this server allowed for the attached storage to be accessed by eSATA as well as USB 2/3 for high speed data transfer, as speed of transfer has been indicated to affect sound, even with memory playback (who knows why???)

Right now the Auraliti PK-90 come closest to doing what I want, and Sonore may be able to make something that works in a similar fashion.

 

[bleedink]

I also abandoned my mac for a dedicated player (Oppo) because the sound quality is far superior for the price for what I could get from my mac. I use the Oppo to decode for 2 channel over S/PDIF. I would have had to spring for a new dac, a capable asynchronous data cable, ect. to get that quality from my mac and purchase additional software to come close to what I can get from my dedicated music system. That is not to say that the Oppo does it all. The computer is still used to access the NAS, the ripping is done on computer, file trees are created on the computer side, ripping to iso's is done on the mac side, conversions to other formats, ect. So basically there is not one without the other. Im not certain that anything is going to do it all. But sound quality wise you can sometimes better your listening experience with a dedicated appliance. I find the flac implementation on the Oppo to be very very good, but hit or miss on various programs on the mac. It's not night and day but I can hear a bit on certain programs--slight to say the least. I just wasn't satisfied with what was coming out of my mac and thought at first the problem lay with my AVR (which is actually quite capable in hindsight now). I see now the problem was entirely with using stock mac. Even with proper playback software I'd have needed to invest another mac mini to get it to sound right. That said, I could be tempted back into the world of computer audio once I am able to stream DSD from my PC. I suspect that support will be baked into the Oppo soon so I am fence sitting for now, but with a definite leaning toward appliances. The Oppo is the only transport I have heard in this category so I can't say that the squeezebox, the sonore, or any other solution would be better or worse than what I am using. I do know it bests my mini as a transport even if I don't use the Oppo for decoding. (My AVR does a better job with some material) You can set up the Oppo for pure listening as well by turning off the video output capabilities. It then just sends audio.

 

[Mark Powell]

I purchased the Naim, for the reasons I stated. Mainly the best sound quality there is. Others may be equal, but not better. My opinion. I have visited their small, but not 'cottage industry' factory, spoken to their designers, and seen the care they take. For 40 years now. They have totally dominated the UK 'audiophile' market for all of that time. A previous appender appears to go for the greatest 'minimalism', with which I do not disagree. The Naim comes very close, but it does have a (good) inbult DAC, which will be wasted if you choose to add a different one or have a 'better' one already.

 

If you are concerned with absolute minimalism, the Bryston might be worth a look.

 

[Tipper]

Ahem, I have to completely disagree with Mr Powell.

 

There isn’t much wrong with some of the “high end” music centres but perhaps prospective buyers should have a peak inside the pretty boxes before they part with their cash.

I think some of those who know a little about computers will be somewhat shocked about what your money buys.

 

Nobody is going to convince me for example that having a SMPS in the system let alone snuggled up to an unshielded Dac in a metal box is the greatest of ideas.

 

Having read here about Chris’s (Computer Audiophile) server builds, particularly the newer build with the USB card and having listened to a few custom built file servers, and now built my, own and heard the Naim HDX I would go for a custom built file server any day.

As for the nothing beats Naim, well, what can I say; you believe what you want but I suggest you listen and compare to even a basic Linux sever before you take the statement as gospel.

 

Granted a lot is going depend on how comfortable you are with computers. However, even if you cant code there is enough information on the internet (think Linux forums, Touch forums, various memory player forums) to help you on your way to building something that imo will outperform any of the current crop of music centres.

Bear in mind, its there isn’t much point in knocking together something in the £250 price range and expecting it to perform as well as the commercial offerings. If you want a quality file server you have to spend an equivalent amount on your custom build as you might on say the Bryston.

So far, I’ve spent £1200+ on my server, not to mention hundreds of hours trying various coding alternatives and OS tweaks to obtain best performance.

 

Seriously, look inside one of these music centres and weep.

 

 

[Mark Powell]

All I can say is there is more inside the Naim box than one might expect. They have stated that they prefer not to have a disk drive in the box - they have presumably moved on from their earlier servers is that area. The first one had two, one of which was purely for back up. There is an ARM9 controller (you perhaps know better than I do what that does).

 

The DAC, a Burr-Brown PCM1791A, is well separated from the rest and is shielded.

 

Buffering/filtering is on a SHARC processor running Naim code.

 

They have always been fond of 'over the top' power supplies. There is a large toroidal transformer, the power supply is OF COURSE linear, lots of big capacitors, and lots of regulators, and galvanic isolation between the various sections.

 

Now I quote from an article "The company obsesses over many little details that other companies usually think too insignificant to bother with. However, all that attention to detail, when added together, gives the ND5 XS a finesse that eludes other manufacturers".

 

Don't really know if all this actually means anything. But they have dominated the UK, as I said. And they didn't get there by being useless. And we did invent 'Hi Fi'

 

We are not talking about some Oppo thing here, nor the Cambridge NP30. If you want a good reason to weep, take a look inside the (won't mention the manufacturer) but it's got a big touch screen, is very expensive, looks like a desktop PC, and they like active speakers with lots of DSP.

 

[Tipper]

I don’t really want to get into product bashing.

Yes Naim is a very successful company but the Sun is a very successful newspaper and I’ll leave it there.

 

Computer audio is still in its infancy. I dare say as more is discovered about what does and doesn’t influence the sound the components that get used will change.

So that I offer as reason number one why a custom build is be the better option, you can change the components without having to throw the lot out.

 

Computer bits are relatively inexpensive atm compared to anything that has an audiophile label on it. So, swapping out different processors, power supplies etc can be reasonably cheap.

 

However, buy a named brand music centre and the probability is, unless you’re a very keen modder, you’ll have to replace it when the next computer audio innovation comes along. Bear in mind, you’ll have problems selling your Naim/Bryston music centre with odd wires hanging out and the non fitting lid because the new caps you fitted get in the way. Yep, extreme but you get my point.

 

You only have to look at the work Peter St here on computer Audiophile is doing with off Dac sound processing to realize that the possibility of such laying the heavy processing tasks off the Dac and onto the computer may have its benefits. I cant see anyone doing this with their bought music centre.

So, in brief, cost, sonic performance, upgradability, the ability to change OS, music player preference etc etc are all options with a custom build.

 

 

[Mark Powell]

I perhaps have the ability to do one from scratch, guided by what Chris has said. But I also looked at the CAP 2 with interest, as all the hard work has been done. Checking part availability, many of the preferred parts are unavailable here in the UK, though there are plenty of alternatves. But those have not been 'Chris tested and approved' so I may not have ended up with the same thing at all.

 

[Mark Powell]

I do find, though pleased with what I have so far achieved at fairly low cost, that computer audio, even when compared to CD, has a certain 'remorseless' quality about it, as though someone is turning a handle.

 

Has anyone an opinion?

 

[mwheelerk]

I guess when I posed this question I didn't consider custom built solutions. My current system is a couple of front end components (Mac Mini, WD HDDs) and some software (iTunes and PM) adapted to the purpose versus manufactured products (Naim, Bryston) designed for the purpose.

 

For my own interests I would not consider a custom built (by me) solution as I don't have the knowledge or skill (or inclination) to pursue one. So far it seems Naim is the main product considered by those that have traveled that route. But, I am interested and entertained by the different experiences and opinions.

 

[bzr]

Actually I am looking into the server route with a very good usb dac, the auraliti, sonore & sgr musickube have made my shortlist, naim isn't on it sorry. Just remember all the above posts for naim are from the same. For the record, I'm not bashing naim, I've heard it plenty & similar over the last 30+ years, my ears comprise the what I like in audio.

 

[darascal]

If you operate a computer based music server...would you consider a Digital Player?

 

Setting sound quality aside for the moment, it would depend a lot on the interface, the feature set and inteface flexibility. I'm skeptical that anything (within my budget) could beat a computer.

 

I've seen the previously mentioned Naim player. Has a nice iPad interface design (though it's a work in progress). As I recall, it can play albums & songs and has a handful of internet radio stations to choose from. It has a just-for-Naim custom Radio Paradise station that plays at 320kbps.

 

While it is impressive for what it is, it's features are no match for a good software music player (e.g. iTunes) and the flexibility of a computer. No playlists, very limited internet radio and I believe no access to other music services (e.g. MOG). The fact you need a NAS or some kind of file server, and not just a hard drive I see as a significant downside.

 

I'm just using the Naim as an example (it's the only one I've personally seen), but I'd guess many of the other DMP's have some of these same limitations. I'm curious to hear about the features, requirements & interfaces of some of the other DMP's.

 

Also, the ability to play an iTunes library, or software that will easily convert my files to the whatever is required for the player would be a necessity, to ensure an easy transition.

 

The reported superior sound quality is what's most attractive to me, as well as the simplicity and (hopefully) fewer hassles trouble-shooting. But I probably won't tempted until I see a product that has the kind of features and flexibility I've come to enjoy. I'd also need to be assured an easy transition: the ability to play an iTunes library, or software that will easily convert my files to the whatever is required for the player

 

Admitedly I've developed a bit of an emotional attachment to my Mini. It's simple, beautiful and (when it isn't causing me grief!) gives me great-sounding music. I'm after the best sound quality (at a reasonable price), but I'd be reluctant to also pay the price of sacrificing the positives of what I already have.

 

Rascal

 

[ants]

I made the move from a computer/DAC to a digital streamer. I also contemplated getting a Naim NDX but it was out a little out of my price range. perhaps in the near future I'll audition this unit. having once owned a complete and elaborate Naim setup, I just like their boogie factor. I also considered upgrading to a Weiss DAC202 but this was also out of my price range.

 

After listening to Linn's digital streamer, I was convinced that this was the right upgrade path for me at this time. As much as I loved the Mac Mini/Weiss, I was not prepared to spend a lot more money on a DAC or prepared to build my own server to improve sound quality.

 

After one month of living with a digital streamer, my personal findings are as follows:

 

The benefits:

- it simply sounds better than the Mac Mini/Weiss DAC2 I was using.

- one box, no software for playback required, music lives on NAS (in another room)

- like using an iPad with Linn's Kinsky (control point software).

 

The shortcomings:

- elaborate task of moving music library from external to NAS with Twonky

- control point software which allows me to use iTunes.

- I simply like the way iTunes displays the library.

- have tried PlugPlayer, Kinsky, Chorus DS but prefer the look and feel of iTunes.

 

What is lacking:

- Airplay integration with the Linn DS but I've downloaded and installed Linn's beta version of their next firmware release, which does have Airplay support.

- exciting as it will allow me to use iTunes, Remote app and an iPad to send music to the streamer.

-the streamer also lacks digital inputs, therefore cannot use it as a DAC for an Apple TV

 

NAS:

- I am just dipping my toes into the whole NAS and network storage thing.

- like the ability to play music without the need of a computer.

- seems I can also access the server remotely buy have not set this up yet.

- potential to stream content remotely to my iPad or iPhone is something I want to learn more about and perhaps one advantage of a server set up.

 

Reason:

- just sounded better and was an affordable upgrade

- selling the Weiss and Mac Mini allowed me to purchase a used Linn Akurate DS.

 

 

[mwheelerk]

...for the input.

 

I am not unhappy with my current set up but want to know what the options might be for the next direction.

 

[ants]

I wasn't unhappy either....that is..until I heard the Akurate DS.

Of course there are pro/cons to both approaches. After 3 years of using a DAC and Mac Mini, I thought I would go in this new direction.

 

I do admit that it has been a little challenging to make sure the NAS and Twonky was set up properly. The control software is where I think some of these high end streamers are lacking.

 

Who knows, I might end up switching back to a computer/DAC setup in a few years...if it sounds better.

 

 

 

[Mark Powell]

Most of these dedicated servers require a NAS. Personally I think that is an advantage over a 'plain' hard drive or a built in one. The Bryston for example, requires a wired USB drive, and some of the Naim ones have two built in, one for backup only. Those that require a NAS means that the drive will also be fully available to your computer based music system as well.

 

Either way, you should have two drives, either as part of the NAS or two USB drives, for backup. Anyone who relies on only the one internal drive in a Mac Mini, Windows laptop, or whatever will eventually lose their entire collection. Be wary of a RAID. Whatever their configuration, they are not actually intended for backup, but for high availability. There is a difference. Originally their sole reason for existence was low cost. It stands for 'Random Array of Inexpensive Disks'. The manufactures didn't like that and changed the inexpensive to independent. Justifying higher cost and making you believe they are 'safe' all in one go. But of course, in most RAID configurations they are not independent at all. Though still inexpensive inside.

 

I am not particularly pro Naim. As I originally said, I believe that there are none that better it in sound quality, and also said it may have equals. But I am wary of some of these 'newbie' manufacturers who have never built even a computer-type 'server' before, let alone any other hi fi component. I am also wary of tiny companies that I have never heard of and who inevitably claim some mystical expertise that no else has.

 

I did say that you give up flexibility with a dedicated box. The Naim ones do not have limited internet radio. They all have the full Vtuner package. The limited part is their 'Naim's Choice' display option which I ignore.

 

Building a custom device yourself? Remember, everyone who does this will do it making his own choice of what is 'best' and will genuinely believe that his is the best possible solution. Does not mean it actually is though.

 

And as for these DACs that cost three or four times as much as any of these servers (Weiss, Wadia, dCS, Burmester etc). Haven't you heard of bull***t?

 

And 'ants' post looks like he is rather locked into one particular manufacturer, so his choice it limited by compatibility with that manufacturer.

 

 

 

[Fitz Music]

What I have not read in the discussions above is persuasive evidence that the proliferating server boxes offer sonic improvement over a dedicated-to-music-only Mac Mini arrangement such as detailed in my signature lines below. Comments were made above about “setting aside sound quality” and that the items under discussion sound “better”.

 

Having spent embarrassing sums on CD and SACD players in years past, and getting only miniscule increments of “difference”, I was pleasantly surprised that my Mac Mini set-up actually improved the illusion of reality that recordings strive to attain--and at relatively low cost.

 

Now we’re back to magical mystery boxes with promises from the copywriters in the publicity department, which makes marketing sense for manufacturers, but not necessarily auditory improvement. As I understand it, there’s a simplified computer in these attractive appliances, some kind of player (software?), and input from music file storage on one side, and output to the audio system on the other. What are the specific benefits (other than convenience, compactness, and lack of clutter) compared to a Mac Mini system, if the pursuit of realistic reproduction is the goal?

 

fm

 

 

[barrows]

See the threads concerning the Sonore servers, and the Auraliti PK90:

 

"What I have not read in the discussions above is persuasive evidence that the proliferating server boxes offer sonic improvement over a dedicated-to-music-only Mac Mini arrangement such as detailed in my signature lines below. Comments were made above about “setting aside sound quality” and that the items under discussion sound “better”."

 

It does appear from the people who have made comparisons that the dedicated servers/players sound better than well sorted computer based set ups.

 

 

 

[Mark Powell]

In a surprising number of cases, not much for your money. The Naim is built to 'audiophile' standards though not the very top of 'high end'. The Linn is similar quality, maybe not so easy to use and set up. My Naim was playing off my NAS five minutes after getting it home about two weeks ago and has worked fine since. You really need an iPhone or iPod, as it's display is too small to see across the room, using its simple supplied remote.

 

Some of them have little inside. There is not much in Bryston, but it is all good stuff.

 

THE POINT about these things is simply that it is not worth paying the fairly high price unless the sound quality is noticeably superior to a fair quality (DAC costing 2000 dollars or more ballpark figure) system.

 

The Naim is good, so is the Linn. The expensive Meridian/ Soolos is not really Hi Fi at all, much more a 'designer' thing in a swish modern house (think Bang & Olufsen). It is ok, better than a Squeezebox or a Sonos, but that's all. Similarly the various Oppo ones, though not so 'designer' looking. But they cost much less of course.

 

Convenience and neatness is what these things are about. Fine, but to my mind you should not comprise on sound quality or you will eventually be disappointed with them. This costs not less than Naim/Linn prices.

 

[Fitz Music]

What, then, is it about these servers that makes them "better"? It's not difficult to know that a BMW is "better" than a Ford Focus, if refined function is the basis of comparison. I'm assuming refined function is also the comparison goal we're making with these audio devices. Is there no general, convincing argument that dedicated servers, by their nature, will be "better"? Why do they sound "better"?

 

fm

 

 

[20hertz]

Though expensive I had the opportunity to use the Aurrender for a weekend in my home system. This unit was BETTER at everything than both the PC and Mac Mini systems on hand. Superb interface, and unbeatable sonics. I am wating for the Aurality L1000 as the Aurender is beyond my budget.