SOtM USB-tx and noise filters

[CG]

Yeah, but I will say this: This is not curing cancer or preventing kids from starving or anything like that. If people are happy listening to their music, that should be all that matters. Period. OK, as long as they don't negatively the lives of people they might live with.

 

To my way of thinking, people obsess about this sort of thing all too much, and that does get in the way of enjoying the music. Of course if this is part of your livelihood or the big part of your hobby enjoyment is designing and building hardware, it's a different tale. But for most folks, it detracts from the musical enjoyment. Brains just don't do multi-tasking that efficiently.

 

Ever go to a concert? In 95+% of the professional events, the sound sucks. It's actually worse than that, but this is a family forum. If it's a rock concert, there's also a pretty good chance that somebody within 10 feet of you will either barf in your general direction or be otherwise distracting. (Amateur events have far, far better sound on average.) Yet, people still seem to enjoy themselves at concerts despite the bad sound. Why is that?

 

[Jud]

Jesus, I'm interested in the workings of the SOtM stuff. My thoughts about it are generally along the lines of barrows', i.e., I see no reason noise reduction shouldn't improve a system, assuming the SOtM components are reducing noise without having other (deleterious) impacts on the signal. I can't use them AFAIK in my main system as currently configured (MBP at the head end), though.

 

I do have a Win/Linux/FreeBSD desktop system, but it's running from a 30-year-old NAD receiver through cheap Wharfedale Diamond bookshelf speakers, ATM without a DAC, though it may get my Theta Pro Basic II and perhaps my Musical Fidelity V-Link added soon, depending on what I think of the Schiit Bifrost that is due to arrive next week at long last. The desktop system is strictly nearfield non-critical listening (I'm sitting maybe 3 feet from the Diamonds) so I wouldn't consider adding any components above a fairly low price range. If the Theta and perhaps the V-Link do get added, then it might be worthwhile adding the SOtM SATA and fan filters and possibly Win/Linux audiophile playback software.

 

Anyone ever see that Three Stooges episode with the old vaudeville routine, "Niagara Falls! Slowly I turn, step by step, inch by inch..."? That's kinda the effect the phrase "just a stream of 1s and 0s" has on me. :-) The digital signal is an electrical *representation* of 1s and 0s, and thus subject to various electrical problems that folks often tend not to adequately consider IMHO. So when Alex posted a comment about the effects of the SOtM equipment, that single phrase in the middle of it is what jumped out at me and what I replied to, while barrows gave a better, more considered response to what Alex actually said.

 

[sandyk]

For those who may not have seen the post that I referred to previously on this subject, here are the details.

Alex

 

Post "my SSD fatigue" 09/23/2011

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Playing-SSD-vs-HDD

 

[vortecjr]

that post doesn't support what your claiming. If you were really after the truth you would have looked a little harder for it. This is how rumors start in forums and the fact is that your just blowing smoke....

 

BTW this is where I start to ignore you so no need to reply....

 

Jesus R

www.sonore.us

 

[sandyk]

Jesus R

That link was simply given to show that I did not "invent the other post"

I have already stated that I did not wish to go further in public for fear of upsetting some people , and this concern was borne out by your very protective reply as a distributor of these devices.

"This is how rumors start in forums and the fact is that your just blowing smoke...."

I find that remark offensive and uncalled for. You have also dismissed Peter St's concerns on this subject as baseless.

Alex

 

[dallasjustice]

Everyone has their biases. You are correct that Jesus is a distributor. But you fail to mention that Peter St's DAC is designed in a way that his DAC can not take advantage of the product we are discussing which purports to improve performance of USB DACs. Peter St may have a bias or two of his own with regard to the SoTM tx-USB product.

 

I ordered some of Jesus' SoTM gear and I will have a CAPS 2.0+(LiFePO4 powered SoTM tx-USB) ready to go in a week or so. I will report back with my findings comparing this gear directly with my 2011 MBP. Of course, I will then be accused of being biased by my purchase. :-)

 

[sandyk]

dallasjustice.

Did you read the initial post by Jesus R where he quoted a customer ? The customer was using Peter's DAC.

BTW, I have no doubt that the product would be beneficial when used in a Server where an electrically noisy HDD was used.

Initially I found the small amount of HF accentuation with my DIY C.L.C. quite pleasing. HOWEVER, what you will hear will be very system dependent. Some system's may sound better with an apparent small improvement in HF detail.

My point all along is that it is far better to power any device with a power supply that is not only low noise, but has a very low impedance over a very wide frequency range.

That is desirable whether we are talking about analogue or digital.

I will refrain from further comments in this discussion unless specifically invited to do so, in a non confrontational manner.

Enjoy your purchases.

Alex

 

[ggking7]

My tx-USB arrives on Monday and I will post the results of using it with SMPS power. Shortly after I'll test it powered by 12V SLA battery and by LiFePO4 battery, I'll just need to solder up a connector first. Actually I'm not sure LiFePO4 will work since each battery cell is 3.3V and my battery pack has 3 cells making it 9.9V. dallasjustice, is your LiFePO4 pack 4 cells at 13.2V?

 

SLA battery does sound better than LiFePO4 through my ADUM4160 USB isolator, much to my dismay. NiMH sounds awful.

 

[sjohnson]

Alex, other posts following yours correctly point out that my earlier post, which you reference, was not concerning the filter. I continue to use the drive power filter and net net like my system sound more with the filter as opposed to without.

 

On the other hand, as was the main point of my post, I quit using the particular SSD for the reasons stated.

 

Steve

 

[barrows]

hey guys, just heads up on my experiences using LiFePO4 based supplies. The LiFePO4 based supplies do work well, and often better than average AC based supplies, but every time I have replaced a LiFePO4 based supply with a really good, AC based, shunt regulated supply-the shunt supply has kicked the LiFePO4 supplies butt. I have compared the two both powering my DAC board, and my Async USB receiver board, I would expect similar results with the SOtM USB output board. And, no battery charging hassles!

I DIY my shunts, with designs from DIYaudio.com member Salas, but very good shunt supplies are available for purchase from Paul Hynes.

 

[CG]

"The LiFePO4 based supplies do work well, and often better than average AC based supplies, but every time I have replaced a LiFePO4 based supply with a really good, AC based, shunt regulated supply-the shunt supply has kicked the LiFePO4 supplies butt."

 

This is an oranges and tangerines comparison.

 

Without getting too geeky on this, the current drawn by any load passes through whatever voltage source supplies it. So, how the current loop is defined by that connection, and what its characteristics are, it turn affects the performance of the enclosed circuit.

 

So, as an example, a couple A123 cells powering a digital circuit through a foot long pair of wires is going to be different than an ac supplied dc source that has regulators right next to the load. A better comparison would be to use the same regulator scheme for both the battery and ac source supplies.

 

Far too many engineers must've skipped that part of the early EE courses, because there's a lot of misconceptions out there. One is the use of regulators. Not too many have much effect on the signal currents of even a modest speed digital circuit.

 

[ggking7]

But we're interested in which sounds better, right?

 

[PeterSt]

A better comparison would be to use the same regulator scheme for both the battery and ac source supplies.

 

And use a shunt behind the batteries !

ehhh

 

[PeterSt]

But you fail to mention that Peter St's DAC is designed in a way that his DAC can not take advantage of the product we are discussing which purports to improve performance of USB DACs. Peter St may have a bias or two of his own with regard to the SoTM tx-USB product.

 

... but I don't see how.

Unless my bias would be about destroying sound. But I have the feeling that is not what you mean ?

Well, never mind, but there is where my concern would be. Nothing much different than the SSD btw (which creates sound nature on its own, and which at least tricked me for two years - even after stating it on day one -> fool).

 

Man, these things are difficult.

By all means, people should try. But also keep in touch with yourself. Know what you ever back did when you suddenly can't get things right. Could be a new amp, the cause being that filter. Ehm, possibly.

 

FYI and maybe additional rough (though not intended) : By now I know exactly what it was about regarding that quote of this customer; briefly said : I solved this in software. We could say : go figure. But we can also say : see ?

(if filters solve something, they most probably solved a wrong cause, and next you will be stuck to it; in this case they may create a nicer sound ... until sound really gets nice and it can't be observed anymore).

 

But

 

When -whatever it is creates a better sound- put it in. But always reset to "zero" when things are changed after that !

(and really, this change can easily be something totally stupid like a new OS version)

 

Peter

 

 

[barrows]

with both CG and Peterst.

 

For clarity, my comparisons were:

 

LiFePO4, 9.6 VDC pack, followed by a Dexa discrete linear 5VDC regulator (I believe this is a modified Jung style circuit), followed by 4x1000uF of Elna Cerafines, with about 4cm-5cm of large gauge wiring from the supply to the load. Additionally, note that the loads tested both used onboard local regulators, so this supply is just a pre-regulator.

 

vs.

 

The Salas v 1.1 shunt regulator, with remote sensing to the point of load. As above, as a pre-regulator.

 

I would expect a battery supply, feeding the same shunt set up, to at least equal the AC fed shunt. The regs I use are set up to shunt about 150mA-200mA of current, so one would want a really big (mAH) battery supply to get decent run time with a shunt regulated battery supply.

Personally, I am very happy now with the performance I am getting with the AC powered shunts, and I also am very glad to not have to deal with battery charging.

 

[PeterSt]

But I too fairly explicitly tried the LiFePO4 setup and got all in for it (IIRC this was close to 2Kg of batteries). And you know what ? they don't help a thing. Not when inherent noise is low enough already. Instead one can start to add storage caps again, the charging is a mess, and the too low voltage is something one won't like (trrrrrrrrr).

All they do is avoiding DC Offset (so that's a positive).

 

But putting a shunt behind batteries was a joke of course. I hope that was clear. Unless you like charging batteries even more of course.

 

Regards,

Peter

 

[CG]

"But we're interested in which sounds better, right?"

 

Yeah, but what is the question you're really asking?

 

This is like asking, "Which tastes better: The white clam pizza from Pepe's Pizzeria Napoletana or the tenderloin of beef at Ben Benson's?"

 

Do you even like clams, pizza, or beef? That matters, at least to you, certainly.

 

You can get the same meals elsewhere, but are they the same? Probably not.

 

This is about equivalent to the question of a listener's sensitivities as well as the complexity of the system.

 

What I would say is that isolating the noise generated by a digital component from the rest of the system, however that is attained, is good and would yield a less distorted and less noisy system performance. At least in my estimation, which is worth something to me but probably not so much to anybody else.

 

[PeterSt]

What I would say is that isolating the noise generated by a digital component from the rest of the system, however that is attained, is good and would yield a less distorted and less noisy system performance.

 

Isn't this where we started to apply ferrite core filters onto our mains cords ?

Ok, I did back at the time.

... But imagine what happened in there (CDP, outward DAC) ...

 

[CG]

Ferrite "beads" are misunderstood and misused.

 

That approach just added noise where the ferrites are effective. But, it was "the thing" to do...

 

[JonP]

I installed the SotM hard drive filter and 4 x fan filters to my DAW / PC last week. It uses an SSD and has ASUS Xonar ST and Auzen Meridian 2G soundcards installed. All I can report is that these products do as they say on the tin. I just feel that the sound reproduction has moved a small but noticeable step closer to the original source. Treble seems to be more solid and clear, with better definition. The background is just a bit blacker. The sound definitely did not get worse in any respect at all. These improvements are all subtle but noticeable.

 

I think these products are worth the money if you are after the very best from your server / DAW / PC, however I do have an issue with the physical design of the fan filters. My mainboard has the CPU fan header located underneath the heatsink area (I use a Noctua heatsink) and as a consequence there was not enough vertical space between the fan header and the bottom of the heatsink. I had to attach a short flexible "extender" to the connector on the fan header end of the fan filter so that I could mount it at an angle instead of vertically. Mounting it at an angle of course reduced the overall height, facilitating a workable fitment. So I think in a future version, these filters should be made shorter if that is at all possible.

 

[wushuliu]

Just received two of the SATA filters and agree with the above post, they are *definitely* worth the money.

 

[toddbagwell]

I have two of the SATA filters and they have not hurt the sound in my room. I didn't do things very scientifically, though, as once I started buying the filters, I replaced the entire audio PC with a new machine. Comparisons are not directly possible, but the sound is improved from before. As to exactly why, I cannot say.

 

The machine I replaced had an old AMD socket 939 CPU, so I was due!

 

todd

 

[Mark Powell]

You are so right. Such beads only have any effect when the cable is passed though many times. Just passing a cable though the hole, as sometimes done on power cords, more often on VGA monitor leads and so on does asbolutely nothing. Except they can charge the mugs more.

 

Have a look at the inside of an Audio Research 'Definition Series' Amp. Not commenting of whether the amp is any good or not, but at least the ferrite beads are used properly.

 

 

 

[CG]

Please explain where you get this idea about the use of ferrite beads.

 

I'm not offering any judgement about the value, or lack thereof, of ferrite beads in audio based applications. I'd just like to know what the problem being addressed might be and how it is being addressed.

 

[vortecjr]

can you guys fork this post and start a new one?

 

Jesus R

www.sonore.us