Poll Question: Power Conditioning

[Ralf11]

11 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

True, but with a little bit of due diligence they might be able to locate the problem.  It's better to attack noise at it's source rather than a band-aid at the receiving end.  Often the cause is another hi-fi component.  Well if the problems is in a beighbor's place, that could be a challenge. Hi-fi power conditioners are not noted for being good noise filters.

 

Quite true.  also good to keep noisy neighbors far away, and not in a tightly packed urban apt. complex.

 

sounds like shtf needs to get out more

[shtf]

16 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

I also was able to get the electric co. to come out and measure noise on my AC line (at the meter) - there is a thread about that on here.  They did not find much at all.  I was planning on buying a Topaz, but deferred that purchase after getting the data.

 

But that is the feed into the house (R1 zone).  It makes sense as there is not a lot of noise producing equipment nearby - noise will attenuate with distance (parameterized by frequency).

 

Because of that attenuation, noise sources inside the house are more likely candidates for SQ degradation...

I do not have any CFLs and turning the LEDs on a separate circuit on & off during listening is not detectable in terms of SQ.

 

When the heat pump turns on there is noise all over the AC line, but I can't hear anything while listening.

 

Interestingly, just yesterday I was eying the illuminated light switches suspiciously.  I may test those sometime, tho they are also on a different circuit.

 

shtfk, it is quite demeaning to try and play various cards, especially while your ignorance of electricity is on full display - feel free to buy anything your heart desires, but you will be well advised to determine what you are trying to improve first, then blind test & return if it doesn't improve SQ

 

 

 

So you called the electric co. requesting a potential hack to measure noise on your AC?  

 

And yes, I've no doubt you cannot hear any noise while listening.  That's been my suspiscion all along.

 

I had no idea science has evolved to such an advanced level. 

 

 

[Ralf11]

you obviously did not read the thread on this that was provided earlier

 

I am sorry you lack basic criteria for understanding music reproduction.  If you are out of HS, there are lots of courses you can take on science.

[GeneZ]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

No system will reveal noise that is 220 dB down.

 

And, BTW, what makes you think "There is noise in all power from the wall" ??

 

it is doubtful you measured it, so how?

 

 I have a device called a "noise sniffer."  http://www.audioprism.com/noisesniffer.html

Found one cheap on Ebay.

 

Interesting to note.  Once you plug one of these (  http://www.audioprism.com/quietline.html   ) into an outlet you are testing, the noise either drops dramatically, or disappears.   

 

Some AC outlets are noisier than others.  But never tested one without having some noise.

[GeneZ]

1 hour ago, Speedskater said:

True, but with a little bit of due diligence they might be able to locate the problem.  It's better to attack noise at it's source rather than a band-aid at the receiving end.  Often the cause is another hi-fi component.  Well if the problems is in a beighbor's place, that could be a challenge. Hi-fi power conditioners are not noted for being good noise filters.

   An excellent AC conditioner will block noise caused by one component from kicking back into the AC that is  powering other components. 

 

Both the Audience and PS Audio power boxes accomplish this factor.  You can have a DAC screeching noise back into the outlet and not know it. But you will hear it when its gone.  Same for any typical digital component.  

 

A good AC conditioner keeps each component isolated from the other's influence on the AC line.  You can have the purest AC out from an outlet, but the noise caused by certain components effecting the others will be like peeing in your bath water.

[fas42]

4 hours ago, GeneZ said:

I am auditioning a very good pair of speakers right now on my desk top. Emotive B1's.  Not expensive. But, I hear the absence of a certain clarity/transparency that I get from my Audience One plus Ones.  Chances are, the things I normally fine tune with would go less noticed.

 

Cheaper speakers tend to need more conditioning from cold to give of their best - suspensions are critical, and the crossover parts need to be "warmed up". What I normally do is thrash these units hard, driving rock for example, at high volume for some time after switch on - following this, clarity, etc, are good enough to pick any variations from electronic causes.

[fas42]

A possible route for those who are so inclined is this sort of thing, DIY units at a sensible cost:

 

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18441.0

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18441.0

 

I did a lot of experimenting with my own version of this, for the previous rig. It allows for a whole range of ideas to be tried, and I may bring it into play with the current setup.

[GeneZ]

1 hour ago, shtf said:

 

Funny, my experience tells me that those who make statement about "good" equipment not having issues with AC has always been that they know nothing about "good" equipment, lacked any ability to discern "good" from "bad" equipment, and have always lacked even basic listening skills.   In fact, I find those making such statements as usually being the type that just parrot what they hear and have little actual experience and listening skills.

  Not everyone can be a gourmet taster.  Nor,  an expert wine taster.

 

Audiophiles are different as well.

[fas42]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

No system will reveal noise that is 220 dB down.

 

And, BTW, what makes you think "There is noise in all power from the wall" ??

 

it is doubtful you measured it, so how?

 

Whenever I see this sort of post, I link back to here, http://www.acoustica.org.uk/other/mains_noise.html.

[GeneZ]

33 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Cheaper speakers tend to need more conditioning from cold to give of their best - suspensions are critical, and the crossover parts need to be "warmed up". What I normally do is thrash these units hard, driving rock for example, at high volume for some time after switch on - following this, clarity, etc, are good enough to pick any variations from electronic causes.

 

I would not call them "cheap."   I would call them surprisingly "inexpensive."

 

Can't thrash them.  I listen in an apartment.  Looks like I will need to send them back.  They, otherwise,  sound quite good!

[fas42]

Fair enough ... could always bury them in thick blankets, etc, during a trial warmup; just to see if it makes a difference doing a conditioning run, .

[shtf]

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

you obviously did not read the thread on this that was provided earlier

 

I am sorry you lack basic criteria for understanding music reproduction.  If you are out of HS, there are lots of courses you can take on science.

 

yeah, yeah, sure, sure.  But since we're in an audio forum why not answer my question about listing the line conditioners you've experienced firsthand and the sonic benefits and/or harm you heard?   Um, I mean with your own ears. 

 

[Ralf11]

I think I will decline based on your very childish behavior.  But have a nice daze.

[Ralf11]

2 hours ago, fas42 said:

Fair enough ... could always bury them in thick blankets, etc, during a trial warmup; just to see if it makes a difference doing a conditioning run, .

 

 

which brings up the inevitable question:  which is the best audiophile blanket?

[One and a half]

20 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

I also was able to get the electric co. to come out and measure noise on my AC line (at the meter) - there is a thread about that on here.  They did not find much at all.  I was planning on buying a Topaz, but deferred that purchase after getting the data.

 

 

Well, you didn’t account for the risk of overvoltage when High Voltage power lines fall on lower voltage lines during storms, other severe weather events or malfunctioning cable support systems like insulators.

Since the Topaz is a very good surge suppression device, all your equipment can be fried at any time due to a spike since you deferred the decision to buy a Topaz.

 

Not a wise decision to defer purchase is it. Typical of a know it all. More rookie errors. 

[Teresa]

Sometimes the need for a line conditioner is very obvious. I live in an apartment complex and was picking up low-level music from what sounded like an FM station on all of my preamp inputs. I don't own an FM tuner. It was mostly heard in-between songs. I tried everything to get rid of it, including unplugging my TV antenna, but nothing worked.

 

When at a pawn shop looking for Blu-ray discs, I seen a Monster HDP 1800 High Definition PowerCenter™ for only $60 and bought it. When I got home I plugged it in and the low-level music from that FM station was gone completely on every input even with nothing playing and the volume turned to max. That FM station interference has never returned in the years since. This has confirmed for me line conditioners work on even the worst interference, plus my equipment is protected from under and over surges. I'm sure it cleaned up any other interference on my line as well.

[Ralf11]

That's right, Teresa.  Conditions vary greatly.  In NYC people have had problems with cell towers or power supplies for them near their apt.

 

Insurance is a good idea too.

 

Surge protection belongs at the main panel - every audiophool genius knows that.

[shtf]

59 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

I think I will decline based on your very childish behavior.  But have a nice daze.

 

Not that I ever would be, but if I were in your shoes I'd probably have no choice but to decline and throw out a few insults.  Kinda' like you just did. 

 

Good move.  Tee hee.

[shtf]

On 2/24/2019 at 2:24 PM, GeneZ said:

PS Audio does not think power condition is good enough for hearing a full rich sound.  PSA has been making AC regenerators that takes the AC and converts, and then converts back again into a pure and steady AC power. 

 

PSA just came out with a brand new "junior" AC Power Plant.  Up until now, their power plants have been priced very very high.  This Stellar Power Plant is designed for a more modest, yet audiophile system. 

 

The Stellar Power Plant 3 takes your incoming AC power and converts it to DC, similar to what comes out of a battery, and then with patented PS Audio technology regenerates and produces new sine-wave-perfect, regulated high current AC power. In the process of regeneration, any problems commonly found on your power line such as low voltage, distorted waveforms, sagging power, flat-topping and noise are eliminated.

 

Worth looking into?...     https://www.psaudio.com/products/stellar-power-plant-3/

 

 

 

I'm not surprised if Paul McGowan of PS Audio thinks power conditioning is not enough.  Their line conditioners, at least the ones from around 2002 - 2007 were what I consider inferior line conditioners that actually induced their own sonic harm.

 

For example.  About 13 years ago I was installing some new amps at a customer's home and he owned 2 separate PS Audio active power conditioners that combined retailed around the $5,500 mark.  After the install we sat back and listened and after about 10 minutes I couldn't take it any more so I asked if we could by-pass the PSA LC's and try listening by just plugging everything directly into the wall.  Even he agreed it sounded better.  I went home and brought back 3 or 4 Foundation Reseach LC-1 and LC-2 small passive, dedicated, and bi-directional filtering line conditioners that actually perform as intended (I think every reviewer who reviewed them purchased the review samples) and the customer couldn't believe how much more musical his system sounded and he ended up buying I think 3 FR LC's.

 

What I've found with line conditioners is that the more popular the name brand the less likely they are of actually performing their intended purpose, which is to purify, condition, filter, and/or cleanse the noisy AC coming in from the street.  And there are many more brands just like this, some of which are mentioned in this very thread. 

 

I think I mentioned earlier that finding superior line condtiioners truly is like looking for a needle in a haystack and that's why I always use the adjective superior when I discuss line conditioners.  But the point being that it is erroneous to think a product is a superior performer just because of the name brand or just because it says, "power conditioner" on the model's face plate.

 

It's been a few years but to the best of my knowledge it remains true today that there are still very few line conditioners worth owning that actually perform their intended purpose while the vast majority either do nothing or induce their own sonic harm.

 

[GeneZ]

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

I think I will decline based on your very childish behavior.  But have a nice daze.

   Sir....  I have been observing you for some time now.    Careful whom you call "childish."

[GeneZ]

36 minutes ago, shtf said:

 

 

 

What I've found with line conditioners is that the more popular the name brand the less likely they are of actually performing their intended purpose, which is to purify, condition, filter, and/or cleanse the noisy AC coming in from the street.  And there are many more brands just like this, some of which are mentioned in this very thread. 

 

I think I mentioned earlier that finding superior line condtiioners truly is like looking for a needle in a haystack and that's why I always use the adjective superior when I discuss line conditioners.  But the point being that it is erroneous to think a product is a superior performer just because of the name brand or just because it says, "power conditioner" on the model's face plate.

 

It's been a few years but to the best of my knowledge it remains true today that there are still very few line conditioners worth owning that actually perform their intended purpose while the vast majority either do nothing or induce their own sonic harm.

 

  

What you speak of is the reason I broke the bank and invested in a 'used' Audience Adept Ar6 TSSD. Even at a used price it seemed too expensive. I went for it. 

 

Its a genuine product.  One of the aspects Audience makes sure of is to have their AC conditioners having a very low impedance. Also, its totally passive. The surge protection does not wear out like found in most AC conditioners... and each outlet filters itself from the effects of all the equipment in the other outlets.   Its a very well thought out conditioner. For years I tried others.  Furman was the last.  Then I went for it. 

[One and a half]

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

Surge protection belongs at the main panel - every audiophool genius knows that.

Right, so you have surge protection installed at the panel? And the rest, what else is their sacrificially in front of the audio system, in case the surge protection lets through too much V? 

[shtf]

1 hour ago, GeneZ said:

  

What you speak of is the reason I broke the bank and invested in a 'used' Audience Adept Ar6 TSSD. Even at a used price it seemed too expensive. I went for it. 

 

Its a genuine product.  One of the aspects Audience makes sure of is to have their AC conditioners having a very low impedance. Also, its totally passive. The surge protection does not wear out like found in most AC conditioners... and each outlet filters itself from the effects of all the equipment in the other outlets.   Its a very well thought out conditioner. For years I tried others.  Furman was the last.  Then I went for it. 

 

I've never auditioned an Audience line conditioner but I've never heard anything negative associated with them.  I used to own their Au24 ic's and sc's (speaker cables) when they first opened shop and at the time they were a pretty musical cable.   They went on to become a very reputable company with their cables, line conditioners, capacitors, etc. and I've still yet to hear anything negative about Audience or their products.

 

As a side note, Audience used to and perhaps still does cryo-treat their cables.

 

IME, superior line conditioners are easily identified when plugged in.  If a line conditioner is truly superior, it is indeed one of the very best and biggest musical jumps most enthusiasts would ever encounter.  Which really is just an indication how noisy the AC is coming in from the street.

 

Anyway, good job on taking the plunge.  As you can see, most refuse.  I suspect most refuse because somebody tried an inferior line conditioner and since it did nothing or made things sound worse, they concluded all line conditioners are evil or snake oil.  Then they go out to forums like this one to spread the bad news that all line conditioners are a joke.  When the truth of the of the matter is, only most line conditioners are a joke.  But certainly not all.

[GeneZ]

2 hours ago, shtf said:

 

I've never auditioned an Audience line conditioner but I've never heard anything negative associated with them.  I used to own their Au24 ic's and sc's (speaker cables) when they first opened shop and at the time they were a pretty musical cable.   They went on to become a very reputable company with their cables, line conditioners, capacitors, etc. and I've still yet to hear anything negative about Audience or their products.

 

As a side note, Audience used to and perhaps still does cryo-treat their cables.

 

IME, superior line conditioners are easily identified when plugged in.  If a line conditioner is truly superior, it is indeed one of the very best and biggest musical jumps most enthusiasts would ever encounter.  Which really is just an indication how noisy the AC is coming in from the street.

 

Anyway, good job on taking the plunge.  As you can see, most refuse.  I suspect most refuse because somebody tried an inferior line conditioner and since it did nothing or made things sound worse, they concluded all line conditioners are evil or snake oil.  Then they go out to forums like this one to spread the bad news that all line conditioners are a joke.  When the truth of the of the matter is, only most line conditioners are a joke.  But certainly not all.

 

 

I still have a Straight Wire Power Purifier conditioner that I bought in the 80's.   Everything I plugged into it sounded better.  I still use it for peripherals.   It did not utilize MOV's to suppress surges, so it does not wear out.   Conditioners that use MOV's wear out over time and then cause conditioners to sound bad when they do.

 

One item used to always make my XP PC sound better.  It surprised me.   For some reason it favored my PC.  Other equipment did not benefit the same way. An APC LE1200 Line-R 1200VA Automatic Voltage Regulator.  https://tinyurl.com/y6ymv7zs

 

Quote

IME, superior line conditioners are easily identified when plugged in.  If a line conditioner is truly superior, it is indeed one of the very best and biggest musical jumps most enthusiasts would ever encounter.  Which really is just an indication how noisy the AC is coming in from the street.

 

Its not really a jump. Its like you do not hear the line noise and how it effected the sound until after it was gone. It makes the system sound more like natural music. 

[Paul R]

1 hour ago, shtf said:

 

Anyway, good job on taking the plunge.  As you can see, most refuse.  I suspect most refuse because somebody tried an inferior line conditioner and since it did nothing or made things sound worse, they concluded all line conditioners are evil or snake oil.  Then they go out to forums like this one to spread the bad news that all line conditioners are a joke.  When the truth of the of the matter is, only most line conditioners are a joke.  But certainly not all.

 

Not so! 

 

Personally, I have found the most bang for the buck in using a UPS that regenerates the power from battery. A decent one will put out very very clean sine wave power that audio gear just adores. 

 

And truth be told, the Uber expensive units do not sound any better than an APC unit for a couple hundred dollars. Sighted or blind in my case. 

 

-Paul