Poll Question: Power Conditioning

[Speedskater]

4 hours ago, shtf said:

 

Are you implying you have no experience with superior line conditioners?

What might 'superior line conditioners' be?

Where might we see their test measurements?

[Speedskater]

Remember that 'power conditioner' is an undefined term.  It could mean almost any combination of the following.

 

a]  Noise filter - a low-pass EMI/RFI filter.
b]  Surge protector - although it's better to have surge protection at the home's service entrance.
c]  UPS - note that many UPS's are not really UPS's!
d]  Line voltage adjuster.
e]  Balanced power transformer.
f]  Isolated power transformer.
g]  DC blockers.
h]  Regenerators (PSAudio)
i]   Line frequency adjuster.
j]   Power Factor Correction.

k]  I forget? But I think that there are more.

 

 

[Ralf11]

Exactly.  Hence the need to determine what is wrong first, as they tend solve somewhat different problems.

 

or maybe the "superior" ones fix everything, all at once, bigly style...

[jabbr]

5 hours ago, shtf said:

 

Are you implying you have no experience with superior line conditioners?

 

I do, they are very heavy isolation transformers, sometimes wired balanced.

[GeneZ]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

Exactly.  Hence the need to determine what is wrong first, as they tend solve somewhat different problems.

 

or maybe the "superior" ones fix everything, all at once, bigly style...

  What would happen if you got your hands on a real good one?   Someone lent it to you.

 

Even if everything sounded better?  You would not admit to it until after you did measurements?

[GeneZ]

Inside view showing Teflon capacitors
and large copper ground plane
on the bottom chassis.

 

 

[Ralf11]

15 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

  What would happen if you got your hands on a real good one?   Someone lent it to you.

 

 

I'd do a blind test on it - want to send me one??

[shtf]

43 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Exactly.  Hence the need to determine what is wrong first, as they tend solve somewhat different problems.

 

or maybe the "superior" ones fix everything, all at once, bigly style...

 

My bad.  I mention superior line conditioners to make a clear distinction from inferior line conditioners which either do nothing or induce their own sonic harm.  

 

But without any experience with line conditioners I suppose all line conditioners are the same.

 

So while you try to play the science card that requires using your "trustworthy" eyes, why not list the line conditioners you've experienced and their sonic benefits from using your "trustworthy" ears?  After all, we are dabbling in an audio-only industry.

 

BTW, my limited experience tells me that every playback system I've encountered benefits immensely from superior line conditioning and I know plenty of others who have much the same experience.  In contrast, I've yet to encounter a single playback system that has not similarly benefited from superior line conditioning.  This implies to me that it's quite possible all AC coming in from the street is noisy and therefore most likely a universal distortion/noise. 

 

What does your listening experience tell you?

 

[Ralf11]

My  listening experience card tells me that good equipment doesn't have horrendous problems with noise on the AC line.

 

My science card experience tells me that confirmation bias needs to be eliminated, and that not much gets past this:

 

 

[Ralf11]

I also was able to get the electric co. to come out and measure noise on my AC line (at the meter) - there is a thread about that on here.  They did not find much at all.  I was planning on buying a Topaz, but deferred that purchase after getting the data.

 

But that is the feed into the house (R1 zone).  It makes sense as there is not a lot of noise producing equipment nearby - noise will attenuate with distance (parameterized by frequency).

 

Because of that attenuation, noise sources inside the house are more likely candidates for SQ degradation...

I do not have any CFLs and turning the LEDs on a separate circuit on & off during listening is not detectable in terms of SQ.

 

When the heat pump turns on there is noise all over the AC line, but I can't hear anything while listening.

 

Interestingly, just yesterday I was eying the illuminated light switches suspiciously.  I may test those sometime, tho they are also on a different circuit.

 

shtfk, it is quite demeaning to try and play various cards, especially while your ignorance of electricity is on full display - feel free to buy anything your heart desires, but you will be well advised to determine what you are trying to improve first, then blind test & return if it doesn't improve SQ

 

 

[fas42]

My philosopy is to assume that the mains supply is a nightmare of bad stuff happening on it - and that the audio rig has to be robust enough to completely reject the impact of this; any line conditioning added to the feed of a particular component is then considered to be part of that component, in the sense of judging robustness. Deliberately corrupting the quality of the mains by plugging in some "bad appliances" nearby is a way of checking progress made - the ideal is obviously zero audible impact; which can be hard to achieve ... .

[GeneZ]

2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

I'd do a blind test on it - want to send me one??

 

I don't think you enjoy music....   You enjoy measurements.

 

That's OK.   Some drink only for medicinal purposes.  They do not care which red wine tastes better.

[GeneZ]

A few months ago I was moving some equipment around and was alternating running one piece of equipment straight from the socket, and then to the conditioner. The rest of my system was plugged into my AC conditioner.   I noticed that my system sounded better with the component plugged directly into the socket. 

 

I my mind I began building a case against the AC conditioner manufacturer... 

 

I was telling myself things like...

 

Its all marketing! The manufacturer gets the people all psyched up, and they begin to believe they hear a difference.   Obviously,  the system just sounded better without the conditioner on this component. 

 

I was all set to repent of my original thinking and admit I was wrong, and a victim of the placebo effect.

 

I went to unplug the component from the AC socket.  Then...   realizing that the unit had been plugged into the conditioner all along. I had had  gotten sidetracked forgetting what was plugged in to what. 

 

Yup...  I heard a different. And, yup, it definitely sounded better.  No placebo effect to be found.

 

[GeneZ]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

My philosopy is to assume that the mains supply is a nightmare of bad stuff happening on it - and that the audio rig has to be robust enough to completely reject the impact of this; any line conditioning added to the feed of a particular component is then considered to be part of that component, in the sense of judging robustness. Deliberately corrupting the quality of the mains by plugging in some "bad appliances" nearby is a way of checking progress made - the ideal is obviously zero audible impact; which can be hard to achieve ... .

 

When I had my Furman Elite-15 DMi it showed on one meter voltage level. There were fluctuations that occurred during the day.  The electric company is not steady Eddy..  That is why I am curious about looking into an AC regenerator.   PS Audio just introduced much less less expensive power plant (when compared to their other regenerators) .... 

 

PS Audio Stellar P3 power Plant.   https://www.psaudio.com/products/stellar-power-plant-3/#tab-description

 

 

[Ralf11]

53 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

 

I don't think you enjoy music....   You enjoy measurements.

 

 

You have me corn-fused with someone else.  I never make measurements on my stereo.

[GeneZ]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

 

You have me corn-fused with someone else.  I never make measurements on my stereo.

 

I can understand blind testing maybe concerning interconnects... But with AC power?   How can you do a blind test when it would require shutting down each component and then unplugging. Then plugging everything in elsewhere? And, then turning on each component, one at a time?  That would be way too time consuming.  

 

Unless you are just doing a sole headphone amp?  But, that would not be the same as hearing a full system in a room where life size sound can be achieved.   With an AC conditioner and entire system needs to be plugged in to reap the full benefits.

[One and a half]

@GeneZ, Power conditioners in the classic sense are those with a filter, the purpose for which is to filter out mains problems.  For HT, about 5 years ago I bought  a Monster conditioner with the filters, and protection circuits. When there was a power failure, the unit dropped out and switched off the loads, and waited for a time for the voltage to stabilise and switched on, for that purpose it worked. In an audio system however, pulsed (harmonic) currents from amplifiers in particular create havoc when they react with the resonant frequencies of the filter. Rather than block frequencies that don't matter, there's a worse mess where harmonics circulate from the amps to the conditioner and back . The ideal situation is to measure the harmonics from the amp and then create a tuned filter to create an impedance null to remove them, but no one makes this device for audio.

 

Power conditioners with LC filters create more mess and do nothing for connected loads.

 

The best and cheapest way to protect audio equipment from surges is to use iron, and lots of pounds (kilos) of it in the form of transformers that actually resist the lower harmonic frequencies and use balanced wired systems to clean up the mess. 

 

The Monster is decommissioned and also a Furman sequencer which has a power conditioner that I used for IT equipment went belly up after 15 months and intermittently fails on me, so it's being replaced with standard rack mount power strips and a Topaz 1kVA transformer for transient suppression.

 

Voltage tolerance. Audio components usually are spec'd at +10%, -15% of line voltage. This is fine to cope with variations, the output will still work fine, and produce the same power and transients as if the input voltage were steady, the equipment is designed to do this.

 

A regenerator like the PS audio designs are UPS without the batteries. They spit out common mode noise and cause more problems. However a regenrator with a transformer on the output will reduce the noise somewhat if the (isolation) transformer has low capacitance between the windings and is built like a tank.

 

References:

 

Why isolation transformer is used at the output of online UPS?

HERE’S WHY YOU SHOULD USE AN ISOLATION TRANSFORMER IN UPS SYSTEMS

Functions of Isolation Transformer in the UPS

Purpose of isolation transformer in UPS ?

[Speedskater]

10 hours ago, GeneZ said:

I can understand blind testing maybe concerning interconnects... But with AC power?   How can you do a blind test when it would require shutting down each component and then unplugging.

You don't even need to do a blind test. Just measure the signal-to-noise ratio at the output of your audio power amplifier.

[Speedskater]

13 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

I'd do a blind test on it - want to send me one??

The chances of there being any audible or measurable differences with or without are low.

 

 

[GeneZ]

With digital audio power conditioning can become obvious.  I would imagine that analog tends to sweeten the pot to begin with. 

 

Its all system dependent.  How much clarity potential is present (and desired.)  Possibly AC conditioning is not something for someone who just wants to slap on a record and is happy to hear music playing in his room.

 

I am auditioning a very good pair of speakers right now on my desk top. Emotive B1's.  Not expensive. But, I hear the absence of a certain clarity/transparency that I get from my Audience One plus Ones.  Chances are, the things I normally fine tune with would go less noticed.

[Ralf11]

2 hours ago, Speedskater said:

The chances of there being any audible or measurable differences with or without are low.

 

 

 

True.  However, such devices seem to help for those with noisy power - usually caused by noise nearby - in the dwelling, or in an adjacent apt., etc.

[GeneZ]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

 

True.  However, such devices seem to help for those with noisy power - usually caused by noise nearby - in the dwelling, or in an adjacent apt., etc.

 There is noise in all power from the wall.

 

It all depends on how revealing one's system is.  I think for a good number of folks its going to not be an issue.  For too many systems are not designed for the transparency that such conditioning demands.  Yet?    Those with home theater systems can see a better clarity of what is shown on the screen.  So?  Its not only about the audio aspect.

[Ralf11]

No system will reveal noise that is 220 dB down.

 

And, BTW, what makes you think "There is noise in all power from the wall" ??

 

it is doubtful you measured it, so how?

[Speedskater]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

 

True.  However, such devices seem to help for those with noisy power - usually caused by noise nearby - in the dwelling, or in an adjacent apt., etc.

True, but with a little bit of due diligence they might be able to locate the problem.  It's better to attack noise at it's source rather than a band-aid at the receiving end.  Often the cause is another hi-fi component.  Well if the problems is in a beighbor's place, that could be a challenge. Hi-fi power conditioners are not noted for being good noise filters.

[shtf]

16 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

My  listening experience card tells me that good equipment doesn't have horrendous problems with noise on the AC line.

 

My science card experience tells me that confirmation bias needs to be eliminated, and that not much gets past this:

 

 

 

Funny, my experience tells me that those who make statement about "good" equipment not having issues with AC has always been that they know nothing about "good" equipment, lacked any ability to discern "good" from "bad" equipment, and have always lacked even basic listening skills.   In fact, I find those making such statements as usually being the type that just parrot what they hear and have little actual experience and listening skills.