Poll Question: Power Conditioning

[Kingpin]

I use my own:

 

 

[GeneZ]

PS Audio does not think power condition is good enough for hearing a full rich sound.  PSA has been making AC regenerators that takes the AC and converts, and then converts back again into a pure and steady AC power. 

 

PSA just came out with a brand new "junior" AC Power Plant.  Up until now, their power plants have been priced very very high.  This Stellar Power Plant is designed for a more modest, yet audiophile system. 

 

The Stellar Power Plant 3 takes your incoming AC power and converts it to DC, similar to what comes out of a battery, and then with patented PS Audio technology regenerates and produces new sine-wave-perfect, regulated high current AC power. In the process of regeneration, any problems commonly found on your power line such as low voltage, distorted waveforms, sagging power, flat-topping and noise are eliminated.

 

Worth looking into?...     https://www.psaudio.com/products/stellar-power-plant-3/

 

 

[rickca]

So with a $2500 budget, what would be more effective ...

PS Audio Stellar Power Plant 3 vs Torus TOT AVR?

How do you decide?

[GeneZ]

16 hours ago, Paul R said:

I don't think very much has changed in five years or so, but my opinion has shifted a little.

 

Put a decent little inverting UPS in place.

 

That would be one that takes in wall power and uses it to charge the batteries, and then takes power from the batteries and feeds your devices from that. In most UPS systems, you get far cleaner power since you gear is never actually connected to the mains. Almost all decent UPS's these days put out a clean sine wave as well. 

 

Add an inexpensive power strip that isolates each plug; it can be fed from the UPS, and the result is power that is about as clean as it gets. At least from the $200-$250 range.  If you are powering monster amps, that price would go up of course. But not dramatically,  you don't need to buy for expensive runtimes. Buy for clean power. It doesn't matter if it runs for five minutes instead of 50 during a power outage, not really.

 

P.S. - Some folks have reported that their systems sounded a little "dull" when put the music on a UPS. I do not hear that, but have never measured the outputs. I expect the outputs, UPS or Mains, to be very close, but I do not know that. I do prefer the sound when the system is filtered through the UPS. 

  I tried that.  The UPS still injects noise of its own.

[GeneZ]

20 minutes ago, rickca said:

So with a $2500 budget, what would be more effective ...

PS Audio Stellar Power Plant 3 vs Torus TOT AVR?

How do you decide?

  Which one restricts dynamics?    Not the Stellar.  Transformers do.

 

I have an otherwise excellent AC conditioner.  Up until the Stellar entered the stage nothing else could touch it.   Now?  I am seriously thinking of giving the Stellar a 30 day trial.  I now have an Audience Adept Response Ar 6 TSS.  And, I might add.  The Audience is much more expensive than the Stellar.  I found mine used or I could not afford it... and it was an improvement over every other AC conditioner I had tried. .. https://audiorevelation.com/products/audience-adept-response-ar6-power-conditioner/

[Paul R]

39 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

  I tried that.  The UPS still injects noise of its own.

 

Here, the UPS is very clean. Does take isolation to avoid one device polluting the other, and you have to use an inverting UPS. Pass through power with standby batteries is no better than a wall plug. 

 

Do you remember exactly what you saw? Type of noise, magnitude, etc.? 

 

 

[rickca]

56 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

Which one restricts dynamics?    Not the Stellar.  Transformers do.

Wow, can you really make a blanket statement like that about transformers?

[GeneZ]

2 hours ago, Paul R said:

 

Here, the UPS is very clean. Does take isolation to avoid one device polluting the other, and you have to use an inverting UPS. Pass through power with standby batteries is no better than a wall plug. 

 

Do you remember exactly what you saw? Type of noise, magnitude, etc.? 

 

 

 I could hear it.   It was a digital noise effect.  This is what I bought...

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1354477-REG/apc_smt750c_smart_ups_750va_lcd_120v.html

 

This was a higher end APC unit.  After listening with it I contacted APC and asked about it, and they agreed.  Its not designed for audiophile use,  but for high quality utilitarian office use. 

 

When you get the better sine wave on battery its keeps things like the spinning hard drives from being damaged. Electric motors like a sine wave.  Moving things like a hard drive can be damaged with much use with the likes of the typical saw tooth wave found with standard UPS on battery.   That's what I was told.

 

To be fair.... I began to hear it the most when I hooked up the UPS monitoring software being hooked directly to my computer.   I believe they cell it 'parachute.'   I called, and the person I spoke with told me for audio there will be a noise generated by such a unit.. The noise means nothing with typical computer use.  But, high end audio needs a different standard.   Yet,  if it sounds good on your system?   Why care?

[GeneZ]

....

[GeneZ]

1 hour ago, rickca said:

Wow, can you really make a blanket statement like that about transformers?

 

 

When used in that manner they can.  Its why Audience steered away from them.  But, they can sound pleasant.

[Paul R]

8 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

 I could hear it.   It was a digital noise effect.  This is what I bought...

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1354477-REG/apc_smt750c_smart_ups_750va_lcd_120v.html

 

This was a higher end APC unit.  After listening with it,  I contacted APC and asked about it and they agreed.  Its not designed for audiophile use,  but for high quality utilitarian office use.  When you get a better sine wave on battery its keeps things like the spinning hard drives from being damaged. Moving things like a hard drive can be damaged with much use with the likes of the typical saw tooth wave found with standard UPS on battery.

 

Ummm- with respect - no. Besides only the cheapest UPS units not pushing out clean sine waves these days, if that were true, then almost every data center in the world would be in big trouble.

 

I suggest you got ahold of person an PAC not familiar with the special needs of audio gear. If nothing else, remember those hard drives are going to be attached to a power supply, not directly to the mains. 

 

On the other hand, whatever sounds better to you is a perfectly valid way to choose what equipment you want in your rig. I find the cost of the "audiophile" power units outrageous, right up there with $10K/meter USB cables. It works from some folks, but not for me.

 

 

[GeneZ]

2 minutes ago, Paul R said:

 

On the other hand, whatever sounds better to you is a perfectly valid way to choose what equipment you want in your rig. I find the cost of the "audiophile" power units outrageous, right up there with $10K/meter USB cables. It works from some folks, but not for me.

 

 

  I agree.  When I began to collect my social security I continued working.  By that means I have been able to dip my toes in the deeper waters for some equipment that I otherwise could never afford.   But,  the stupid expensive stuff?   I used to know rich narcissists.  Some products I believe were created to market to them.  It gets stupid expensive after a point.

[atxkyle]

Thought I’d share a quick update.  I was pleased enough with the affect of the Furman AC-215a filtering the power to my integrated amp that I decided to order a 2nd one to put in from of the SPS-500 that powers my NUC Server (Roon ROCK OS), which is located in a different room from my main system.  I’d read elsewhere that the SPS-500 was sensitive to AC noise, and anyway it’s very low risk to try it out given Amazon’s return policy.

 

Another improvement.  More subtle step up than the first Furman (the one powering the amp), but a noticeable step up, and I’m definitely keeping the unit.

 

I still don’t understand why improvements at the server level affect the sound quality in my setup so much, but that’s a different thread!  

[Ralf11]

how are they connected?

[atxkyle]

33 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

how are they connected?

Do you mean the network topology?  

 

If so, I have the Netgear Orbi system which uses a main router and satellites to get whole home wifi coverage.  The main router is in my office and the Roon server is directly connected to that router by Ethernet cable.

 

The hifi system is in the living room.  Orbi satellite -> Network switch -> microRendu 1.4 network streamer -> Chord 2Qute DAC.

 

When the UpTone EtherRegen is launched I’ll likely replace that network switch with the EtherRegen.

[Ralf11]

no I mean are they wired, or using optical fiber or wifi - I am wondering how noise is being transmitted - the latter 2 cannot transmit noise (except via the power lines)

 

for wired ethernet, and noise transmitted along the cable would have to go thru those transformers

 

so if a powerline device cuts noise (or seems to) then it seems only 2 possibilities are left: confirmation bias, or a noisy AC line

 

I assume the distance involved means they are on different circuits at the elec. panel(?)

 

different columns on the panel are said to help with noise issues

[atxkyle]

2 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

no I mean are they wired, or using optical fiber or wifi - I am wondering how noise is being transmitted - the latter 2 cannot transmit noise (except via the power lines)

 

for wired ethernet, and noise transmitted along the cable would have to go thru those transformers

 

so if a powerline device cuts noise (or seems to) then it seems only 2 possibilities are left: confirmation bias, or a noisy AC line

 

I assume the distance involved means they are on different circuits at the elec. panel(?)

 

different columns on the panel are said to help with noise issues

Wifi from server to the Orbi satellite, and Ethernet Cable from the Orbi satellite to the microRendu (with the low-power switch in between).  And yes the server /router are on a different circuits than the satellite/streamer.

 

Confirmation bias is possible for the 2nd Furman AC filtering device that’s placed at the server.  The effect of that 2nd unit was pretty subtle and I’ll admit I wasn’t 100% certain I was hearing improvement.  

 

That said, I’ve had this setup for awhile now and have definitely heard big sound signature differences when I’ve changed other things at the NUC server (power, supply-stock SMPS to SPS-500, OS-windows to Roon ROCK, bios changes, etc.).  I don’t have a logical explanation for it.

 

But I don’t want to hijak this thread on that topic.  Most relevant for this thread was that I recommend others try out the Furman AC-215a if they suspect noisy AC power and want to test a relatively inexpensive, easily returnable (Amazon) potential fix. 

[shtf]

On 9/21/2011 at 4:20 AM, greg788 said:

What power conditioner are you using?

 

I've never had much success with power conditioning. However, now that I'm using a computer frond end, the switching power supply noise (computer and external hard drive) has me wondering and willing to try some things out again.

 

 

Not surprising.  Historically there have been very few line conditioners that actually cleanse, purify, filter, and/or condition the noisy AC coming in from the street.  Some do nothing while others actually induce their own sonic harm.  IOW, finding superior line conditioners that actually do their intended job has been a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack. 

 

The good news is, if you ever do find superior line conditioners, it's generally one of the more musical upgrades you're likely to experience.  The bad news is that all your audio buddies will despise you because you can no longer tolerate their unmusical playback systems.

 

Since 2000 I've used various Foundation Research line conditioner models and in the past few years I switched over to Jena Labs THE Two line conditioners.   All of which are passive (presumably draw no current to themselves), dedicated, and bi-directional filtering.

[cambridgehank]

I purchased this Monster device 18 years ago.  They no longer are in that business.  It works great in our condo.

According to the diagrams on top, it cleans up the AC and I can attest, it shuts down with a power outage.

[Doak]

Wow,,, take me back. 

I did use one in an AV system many moons ago and it's still here on a shelf in the original box.

I still use a smaller version with the TV and coupled small receiver/speakers system.

[Ralf11]

to properly select a power conditioner, you really need to figure out what is wrong with your power first

[shtf]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

to properly select a power conditioner, you really need to figure out what is wrong with your power first

 

Are you implying you have no experience with superior line conditioners?

[Ralf11]

Are you implying you have no experience with engineering or science?

[soares]

On 8/12/2014 at 3:58 AM, mordante said:

If you don't live near a industrial location but just in your average suburban area I don't think power conditioners are needed. I just use a Supra.

 

Have the same, currently connected to a step up transformer (to 220v). It did improve things a little comparing to the plastic ones. Never used a conditioner before, but planing to buy a new one when returning to Europe. A couple of year ago I listen to a kemp and they were great:

http://www.kempelektroniks.nl/en/201/kemp-elektroniks/products/line-conditioners/power-source

Not sure if  they are available in US.

[shtf]

38 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Are you implying you have no experience with engineering or science?

 

It's ok to say you have no experience with superior line conditioners and their sonic benefits.  Many don't.

 

But if you do, why not list the ones you have experience with and describe some of their sonic benefits.  It's open book so feel free to bring your science books.