Audiophile quality powered subwoofer

[Christopher]

Hi Jeff,

 

SVS subs are worth a look. Since you are not seeking a lot of ‘boom’ you may wish to consider the small footprint SB12-Plus. http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-sb12plus.cfm

 

The SB12-Plus has some built-in room correction. Considerably more room correction is available with the SVS AS-EQ1 subwoofer EQ. http://www.svsound.com/products-parts-subeq.cfm

 

In August 2008, Stereophile reviewed the bigger brother of the SB12-Plus. http://stereophile.com/subwoofers/808svs/

 

You can spend a lot more, but you may not get much more performance for the dollar. I own SVS subs…no affiliation and not otherwise affiliated with SVS.

 

Cheers,

Chris

 

 

[icebreaker]

Chris is spot on with the REL recommendation. The first sub that came to mind. Subs can be hard to integrate especially in small rooms. They can often detract from the character of your expensive speakers. But,the REL is the easiest I've found to integrate. Very musical.

 

[lamarzocco]

Surprised no one mentioned the JL audio lineup of home subs. Very fast, very clean and small too. I like the F113 sub, I've not heard the Gotham sub, but seems like a monster of a subwoofer.

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Agreed. JL Audio makes some wonderful products.

 

[Eric51]

It seems like this sub forum has some wind left in it! - I haven't thought about my sub in a while so I will try to make this quick and dirty!

 

My two cents is that I would go for a larger vs. smaller enclosure, and at least a 12" if not 15" woofer. That is if one is looking for a "true subwoofer" that can go to 20hz at over 100db with less than 10% distortion and cross it over at 50-60hz. IMO a "sub" should not be making music above that anyway! Any decent "bookshelf" speaker these days can do well down to about 60hz.

 

If you want a "sub" to cover the higher bass frequencies then you might look more at a 10" woofer in a smaller sealed cabinet. I personally can hear the position of the sub when it is crossed over any higher than 60hz or so. That bothers me, especially if the sub is placed behind the listening position.

 

With my maggies I sometimes want a little more "punch" in the midbass and a "sub" with an 8" woofer might do the job, but that would complicate things! I need to live with the fact that the planar speaker is not going to have the punch of a cone. You win some and loose some!

 

The smaller sub enclosures that use high power and a ton of EQ to make it down to 20hz are probably not going to sound as fluid and natural in the lower registries, as a larger enclosure and driver IMO.

 

When it comes to bass -a bigger enclosure/driver is usually better - as far as making 20-40hz. An alternative is 2 smaller enclosures placed appropriately in the room to get the most out of the synergy (they dont need to be driven as hard and can complement each other very well when placed right!)

 

My experience with placement is that trial and error is the best solution. If your system lacks focus anyway then placement doesn't make as much of a difference. Moving the subs around usually means you have to play with the phase as well. I have my HSU as 180 degrees out of phase to the mains and that seems to place the bass in the middle of the room between the speakers.

 

HSU has gone to wireless. That could be interesting with 2 or more subs. I would be curious to hear their new 15"! You shouldn't need two of those unless your room is huge! I'm getting worked up here! I thought I was done with the sub! I guess its OK to dream right!

 

Eric

 

[Rob]

I thought I was familiar with about every home audio product available, but this brand is new to me. They are absolutely gorgeous...and made in the U.S.A! There are so many look alike subs out there, but these look original. It appears they have no speaker level input which presents a challenge for the minimalist crowd like me who run amps with no line out of any kind. Although I have yet to try it, I think there is a solution for someone with no line outs; by using a line level passive volume control off of your DAC or CD player with an RCA splitter (I don't know if splitters are available for XLR) running to your amp and sub. Granted, you end up with two volume controls which is a compromise. Although a DAC with volume control or the volume on your media player could control the volume simultaniously, there would I believe, be a small loss of dynamics. Pro-audio DACS with their multiple outs have in their software the ability to set the ouput for the sub separately, but again you are reliant on a software volume control, or on the physical master volume control on the DAC, if it has one. I believe, for the most part that subs without speaker level inputs are geared towards home theatre. I have yet to see a sub geared to music that does not have speaker level inputs, other than in the pro-audio world. The ideal set up is to have all software controls in the computer bypassed and your media player volume at maximum, and all volume controlled with your amp, but if surfing the net be wary of websites that have music that comes blaring on when you open them.

 

Rob

 

desktopaudioboutique.com

 

[machinehead]

Wow, I have not thought about JL audio, since my car-audio days as a teen. They were the king of

car audio subs, and very expensive at the time. Glad to see they are still around.

I will have to try to demo a home sub.

 

 

 

[machinehead]

Rob, there are xlr "y"'s like this:

 

http://www.fullcompass.com/category/Y-Cables-XLR-Microphone-Splitters.html

 

 

Jeff

 

[Tog]

Room Correction is the new Jitter ...discuss

 

 

yours, without resonance, tog

 

[Audio_ELF]

I'm not positive ... but I think if you use a passive y-splitter on a balance signal then you can start getting issues. Before doing it I'd look into it a bit more.

 

As for Audiophile subwoofers ... I'd like to add B&W especially the 800 series ones.

 

[silverarrows]

I second the RELs. That said, I actually bought a couple of Magellan VI Passive Bass Modules which are powered by a TBI 200 su to go with my Final Sound 400i electrostatics and am very happy with the sound. You can get more info at http://www.musicalsubwoofers.com/index.asp

 

[sastusbulbas]

Regarding Velodine Room EQ,

 

I have read on a couple of other forums of Velodine being pretty poor, in particular their room correction with distortion of 50 odd percent. Due to what I read I stopped myself buying an SMS 1 unit.

 

As to this rap is crap, or that is only good for movies and this sub is great for music malarky, quite simply I would guess that around 90% of subwoofers are either rubbish or poorly set up, a decent sub should do movies and music equally well.

 

I myself plan on building my own, my first budget attemps will be with JBL Car audio drivers and Behringer electronics for a budget PA/AV set up. So far I have seen that most DIY kit out performs the Audiophile kit, the US seem spoilt for choice compaired to us Brits though.

 

[vantagesc]

Have any links on the subject that adding an SMS-1 adds 50% distortion? Don't see why a param. eq should do that, particularly when you use it to cut peaks rather than filling gaps in frequency response.

 

[laurent]

 

To sastusbulbas,

 

I am certainly biased because I have a Vekodyne DD15 coupled with Dynaudio S25 bookshelspeakers (and MF A1008). All I can tell you it is that ,for me, they marry beautifully. When I mute the sub, I can feel the bass extension and depth weakening and part of the magic is gone. It is very subtle and far from the boom boom of a woofer on the Lfe canal of home cinema.

The tricky thing is to do the room eq. The automatic eq is not satisfactory. The sub must match with the speakers and the room so that you don't hear it. So it must be done manually. For me it was impossible, too many parameters and you need experience with the system to have a good balance ( in a 3db range for all frequencies between 25hz to 100 hz if possible!). French forums are filled with people asking for help with the DD or the Sms1.

My DD15 was installed by my salesman who also has a passion for subs. He sometimes travel in France or in Belgium just to set up DD he hasn't sold.

 

My advice would be not to go for Sms1 or DD if you don't have someone with good experience to set it up.

 

As for subwoofer matching the speakers, I think that audiophile subwoofers are best suited with bookshelf speakers with less bass extension.

I think it also depends on the speakers. I don't think the Velodyne would have been that good with my former BW 804s speakers which had a litlle sharp and dynamic edge. Dynaudio and Velodyne are more on the smoother side which I now prefer.

 

 

[BobH]

I missed this thread the first time around - been out of the loop for a while. I'll concentrate on the room correction part, as my son and I have recently been playing with a Tact unit in his system.

 

Room correction is the best thing you can do to most domestic hi-fi installations. Full stop.

 

The single biggest issue for most domestic users is the room. For most of us it's akin to keeping sheep in a car - you can do it but it's not ideal! My son has a purpose built listening room filled with some very expensive kit, feeding either a pair of Avante Garde Duo's or Martin Logan CLS's. Once properly calibrated and the system measured, the Tact unit made an incredible difference to both clarity and 'musicality' - by which I mean the feeling that one should stop tweaking and just listen! Once all of the battling room nodes, speaker peaks and dips are'fixed' the music just becomes so much more pleasant to listen to - it's astonishing. So far we have concentrated on making the room response, at the listening position, as flat as possible and some room tweaks can be carried out so that that objective requires as little processing as possible. Once that is achieved the sound can then be tailored to my son's personal preferences. A long process, to be sure, but easily achievable and well worth the effort.

 

No speaker is perfect, no amp is perfect and most rooms are far from being anywhere near to even being close to acceptable! A good room correction unit such as the Tact, or a Lyngdorf, can not only act as system DAC - and a very, very good one it is too - but also provide the listener with the cleanest most uncluttered and pleasurable sound possible, effectively taking the room out of the equation.

 

I'm a convert! Actually, no, I'm an evangelist, it's that good!!

 

[laurent]

Bob,

Having heard what Velodyne can do under 100 hz, I also think about full spectrum eq.

It won't be able to transform an acoustically bad room into an excellent audition room or unbalanced speakers into balanced ones but it certainly improves a lot.

 

I have read a lot of good things about Tact but as with Velodyne it seems that best results are hand made and require quite a lot of work and experience.

By the way, France is hot with the new Trinnov Stereo optimizer.

http://www.trinnov-audio.com/moreoptimizer.php

Not an easy reading (for me).

 

I will try to hear it once.

 

I agree with you a system like the Tact gives Dac and room eq.

 

 

 

[BobH]

Yes, I have to say that the Trinnov unit looks very interesting and much closer to my price point! It only does a maximum of 96k input, which may be a problem for some - but my hearing, as well as my stomach, now has middle-age spread, so it shouldn't be a problem for me!

 

The big thing is that most people have thoroughly acceptable kit that they end up changing because something is still 'not right'. The first time I heard a flat frequency response I thought something was horribly wrong! It sounded so dull compared to the usual sound, but I could hear so much more of the recording. It was weird! The reality, of course, is that most of us like a little more this, or a little more that in what we hear and kit designers try to give it to us in their designs. Make 'em sound good in the showroom! But they cannot control our 'music rooms' and so their little bits of 'emphasis' can end up rattling around the walls and knocking out the non-emphasised stuff! Once you calm everything down what you're left with is much, much closer to what the engineer heard and wanted.

 

EQ has been, and probably still is, a heresy in most audiophile circles, but assembling a perfect system in the perfect room is a dream for the vast majority of us and room correction is the only way we are ever going to be able to get close to what we should be hearing.

 

And on the subject of sub-woofers - or 'How to buy 10x the bass reproduction you need'! - most people will be amazed at how much extra bass power they've become used to! Recordings are pumped up, speakers are pumped up, it seems these days as though everyone thinks we should be trying to crack the foundations! Measure it, flatten it out and - hey presto - you can turn everything down from 11 to 3 and still be able to hear it properly! For me, subs are like super tweeters - they can add much better definition to what you can really hear well, but you shouldn't know they're there!

 

[sastusbulbas]

Here are a couple of links regarding the Velodyne automated EQ kit,

 

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfd-electronic-equalization-devices/6346-behringer-fbq2496-velodyne-sms-1-distortion.html

 

And someone called Slartibartfast apparently measured the SMS-1 and found the same problems on this forum,

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index....560#msg_243382

 

Personally for what I was intending to do I would have thought the SMS-1 would have been perfect, but after reading about its distortion, and reading about the LF cutoff of Velodyne's top model, I feel they may not be the icing on the cake for anyone wanting LF performance around and bellow 20hz?

 

I am not sure about all this though as my personal opinion/experience with proper subs is very limited.

 

[vantagesc]

Thanks. That's very surprising!

 

It's worth a read, as the issue is not simply that the SMS will produce 50% distortion in every case, but still, a curious design decision.

 

[laurent]

At 20 hz and below you are in the infra that you can't hear but your neighbors might not appreciaye (if you live in a flat).

 

 

 

[vantagesc]

True, but bass below 20hz is actually important to some people for certain movies.

 

For music, I don't think the SMS rolloff is a big concern unless it affects you in the upper bass.

 

[davidulf]

I swallowed real hard when I saw the price tag (never having spent more than 2k on any component), but I took home the JL Audio 110 to supplement the Aerial 5Bs. After a half-hour or so of set-up it did indeed disappear. Until I turned it off and heard what I was missing. Pricey for me, but works wonderfully.

 

[vortecjr]

I have been thinking about the vanderstein subs. They have an audio and home theator version. My dealer tells me that just one will most likely be the best upgrade I have ever done. I like JL Audio as they are my home town guys, but they are expensive. Anyway, most of these subs combine the l/r channels. Not entirely great, so for the extreme bunch you need two units. PS dont kill the mesenger.

 

[cfmsp]

 

+1 on the Vandersteen powered sub

 

highly recommended, altho I gave my Vandersteens away several years ago.

 

One seemed like plenty to me, but I don't measure bass response by watching for chest hair movement.

 

 

clay

 

 

[vortecjr]

you dont due two for more base, but just to maintain the l/r discrete channels.

 

machinehead, FYI the vanderstein is cool because it is not intended to boost the base, but improve the lower end with its subs and increase the efficience of the mids of your speakers. So win win. It does this by adding a filter that reduced the base at the l/r speaker and then picks it up at the sub.