POLL: What USB cable are you using?

[Miki]

I tried some $$$ cables like Wireworld Starlight Platinum and Nordost Blue Heaven in my system and it didn't make a zilch of a difference to my ears. So I returned them and still using 1' Wal-Mart USB cable. However, this might be the artifact of my DAC since Ayre claims that QB9 rejects noise and interference from cables using their zero-feedback design and fully-balanced circuitry. All I can say that the cheap cable I use now has a killer sound.

 

And I don't think that the cable is the most likely target for sound improvement - it should be your listening room. If I could only afford to get Jim Smith over to voice mu room.

 

 

[Paul R]

I would say that something else in your system is hiding the effect of the USB cable, perhaps the DAC, though I seriously doubt Ayre recommends using a $1 Wall Mart cable with their stuff.

 

-Paul

 

 

[Miki]

Right you are - my DAC makes the choice of cables redundant, eliminating the need for expensive cable. As QB9 uses the TAS1050 chip the power leads of USB cable are not used at all by the DAC, they might just interfere, which is eliminated by the circuitry design, as per Ayre. Your WL Proton is actually powered by computer through the USB so in your case the choice of cable could make all the difference in the world

 

 

[Paul R]

I would have sworn that the Ayre website had a list of recommended cables on it, but apparently not. It does have the text reproduced below. Still, after being shocked that there was any audible difference in USB cables at all, I am finding they all cause the system to sound different.

 

And it does not seem to be directly related to price either, more affected by the combination of materials and construction. Ah well, your Ayre uses the same Streamlength code my Wavelength uses, so the power on the cable, or how the cable geometry separates the power and signal, may well be the difference.

 

Good thinking.

 

-Paul

 

From the Ayre Website about the 9 series...

 

USB Cable Requirements

 

Perhaps the one weakness of USB is that the maximum cable length is somewhat limited, typically 3 meters (~10') to 5 meters (~16'). We have found that one of the most common problems encountered when setting up a USB-based music system is the cable itself. Regardless of any claims from the cable manufacturer, we have found that performance can degrade when exceeding 3 meters. Ayre cannot guarantee the operation or performance of any system utilizing a USB cable longer than 3 meters.

 

In the case when it is not possible to locate the USB D/A converter within 3 meters of the computer, Ayre has found that the Icron USB extender works well. It is claimed to work up to 100 meters. We have tested it up to 100' and have no reason to doubt their claim. It also operates reliably at speeds up to 192 kHz, even with the asynchronous operation used in the Ayre A/D converters which requires concurrent signal transmission in both directions. It is not inexpensive, at around $325 in the US, but a low-cost ($50) USB extender we tested did not function at all with an Ayre USB D/A converter. There may be other similar products that work well, but we have not tested them and cannot verify their performance.

 

 

[goldsdad]

"And it does not seem to be directly related to price either, more affected by the combination of materials and construction."

 

Paul, you should try Walmart cables. Since your system is sensitive to USB cable, a Walmart USB may give better sound than AQ Cinnamon and everything else tried in your system. Seriously. Stranger things happen at sea.

 

 

 

 

[Paul R]

Harumph!

 

Actually, I did try a dollar store cable. Sounded rather okay, but had a lot of dropouts. I'm thinking about trying some Romex and building my own USB cable. That at least, should have no problems carrying sufficient power.

 

Want your leg back now?

 

-Paul

 

 

[Christopher]

I’ve been listening to the Pangea USB-AG .5 meter cable for three days. I’m using it between computer and Acromag with Kimber between Acromag and QB-9 DAC.

 

I clearly hear a difference.

 

Day 1 was disappointing. Music sounded thin and metallic.

 

Day 2 was better, but not by much.

 

Day three was very enjoyable. Similar to ggking7’s feedback, I hear a noticeable difference in highs. Cymbals and horns have improved. Some vocals also sound deeper and richer.

 

I’m looking forward to a lot more listening. Will let you know if anything changes dramatically.

 

Best regards,

Chris

 

 

[goldsdad]

Both my legs are renowned for their resistance to pull. You worry about the ONI.

 

 

[REShaman]

Shortly after installing my first Mac Mini (2011/2010 version) and using a very decent USB cable with my Wyred 4 Sound Dac2, I replaced the USB cable with a Synergistic Research Tesla Tricon USB. At first, I was straining to hear a difference. I did not have to wait long, the difference was discernible. Even if, as some suggest, USB cables are not critical, my Tricon is a gem and should I be imagining this, my strategy is working: Persist in imagining it's only my imagination and continue to enjoy the improvement. When the made to order ICs and speaker cables arrived and were installed, the synergy was also a discernible improvement. Change is the constant. Matters not what my experience is in contrast to another if another's choice delivers the quality of rendition s/he prefers. Room for everyone and their models of the world.,

Richard

 

[Paul R]

Hey Russ -

 

This one is going back. I've been listening to it for hours, and I just don't like it. It is very revealing and in some ways produces an impressive crystalline sound, but it does not present a nice soundstage.

 

All in all, it sounds like what a Bose Wave Radio would sound like if it has a clean sound. Impressive in some ways, but not what I expect or want.

 

I ordered a Kimber USB cu cable to try, and am just using an AudioQuest Forest in the meantime.

 

-Paul

 

 

[crisnee]

"My wife, for example, can clearly hear the difference between an AudioQuest Forest and Cinnamon cable, while I cannot hear any difference at all.

 

She will be passing by, cock her head for a second, and then annouce that I changed the cables "yet again?!" I do it sometimes just to tease her. Yet, she cannot hear a difference between iTunes and Amarra or Pure Music"

 

Paul, I was just browsing through this thread when I came across this. This is fascinating. Have you investigated it at all? I think I remember (from another topic) that you're a scientist or some such, or that you're investigating power cords and why they affect the sound. But even if all that is incorrect, have you?

 

Unless you or your wife have a typical hearing deficiency, which I'm guessing you don't, this really is interesting. It implies a lot of possibilities re the whole audiophile thing and evaluation by listening.

 

Have you tried to hear what she hears? Has she explained the differences she hears to you? Does she prefer one cable's sound over the other, or are they just different to her? And have you tried to "educate" her ear to hear the differences between Itunes and Amarra?

 

I think that it would be particularly meaningful in terms of the evaluation of audio products (forum member's opinions of usb cables for example) if you couldn't educate each other, but either way...

 

-Chris

 

[Jim Smith]

I use the Transparent USB cable - seems like it was around $120. I've really liked it, although I'll be trying out a Cardas Clear to see if it might be better, mostly out of curiosity.

 

Would like to try the AQ Diamond some time, again out of curiosity.

 

[Paul R]

Yes indeed. Though I am more of an engineer first and a scientist second. I tend to take theory and wring it out for practical applications. Karen is more the scientist in our family (though not employed at the moment) and and engineer second, though I admit, she notices what is on every phone pole she passes. Half the time she notes who owns the pole too.

 

Mostly I have been modeling speaker cables lately, but have ran into a point where theory appears to break down and to move forward, I need to create new theory. That isn't my forte, and to be honest, while I am passionate about audio, I am not sure I am willing to devote that much effort to it. Or to be more honest, not willing to do so without getting paid, as I do have a mortgage and to pay it, I have to keep up with my rather demanding day job too.

 

As to differences, I admit to sometimes being a bit baffled by Karen's subjective explanations, as she is baffled by mine.

 

As it turns out, the sonic differences that make large differences to me are not the ones that make large differences to Karen. In some rather extreme cases, differences that drive me nuts are audible to Karen, but utterly insignificant to her. (And vice versa.)

 

If we point out the differences, by example, usually we can guide each other to what we are focused on, and gain both understanding and agreement.

 

But here is the kicker.

 

Some things that make "big differences" to me, such as the soundstage the Pangea cable mucked with, are so insignificant to Karen, that she is bored to the point of inattention by it. The same is true in reverse. I have to concentrate and force myself to pay attention to what are to me, tiny differences, but what are to Karen big differences.

 

In other words, it is not so much we cannot hear the differences each other focuses or keys in on. We can. We ignore differences that are not important to us.

Hope that adhoc explanation makes sense.

 

By the way, this is an evolving theory that is not much more than opinion, so be sure to take it with a grain of salt.

 

The Forest and the Cinnamon USB cables sound very much alike to me, though after a lot of listening, I can hear the difference Karen so clearly hears without effort. (She prefers the Cinnamon by the way.)

 

 

We really expect other people would be able to hear the same differences we did. Whether or not those differences would be important to them, or how important they would be be, is another question. One we don't have an answer for. Thinking about how to get an answer though.

 

In any case, the Pangea cable is headed back to Amazon.

 

I ordered a replacement Cinnamon cable, but I also ordered up a Kimber cU USB cable.

 

Roughly, it would seem that we like some things about the sliver or silver clad cables (resolution perhaps). The Kimber cable has a geometry similar to the Audioquest, but 6.5% silver instead of 1.5%.

 

It is also half the cost of the next steps up in AudioQuest cable line from the Cinnamon. Worth trying at that cost.

 

And yes, there are wider considerations, and the above is one reason why I aggravate some of other folks by saying the results of blind tests are not always accurate. Listening is obviously a skill that one obtains through practice.

 

Knowing what you are listening for is an important part of the learning.

 

-Paul

 

 

 

 

[crisnee]

Roughly, it would seem that we like some things about the sliver or silver clad cables (resolution perhaps).

 

I think the Pangea has some "sliver or silver" in it too, perhaps a sliver of silver.

 

But that's not what I care about. Thanks for the response, amusing and interesting too, and I'm glad you did a bit of investigating. It certainly speaks to (or against or somewhere in between) blind tests and really any listening tests.

 

Imaginary scenario: you want to upgrade your system and after the usual trials and tribs you decide component A is a lovely upgrade to component B-. I happen to make music with the very same system you had, and my room dimensions, furnishings and whole schmear is nearly identical. So I says to myself says I, well Chris old chump, get yourself some of that thar component A.

 

And the old chump does and finds that his system's sound is pretty much unchanged. According to your experiences with your wife, this would make perfect sense, as it also would had I found component A to be a lovely upgrade, as you did in this imaginary scenario.

 

I guess that's pretty obvious, but what's so cool about it, for lack of a properly hot adjective; it's the first near proof I've heard of the unreliability and questionable value of people's opinions regarding the comparative quality of audio components (in terms of their sound).

 

So I wonder what's so different in you and your wife's physique/psychology or whatever it is that makes for your different preferences or hearing abilities. Now there's a project.

 

-Chris

 

 

 

[Jud]

What's responsible for the difference? In this case it could be that women tend to retain more ability to hear in higher frequency ranges, IIRC. Or it might not be. :-)

 

[Paul R]

Pretty close Chris -

 

My only caveat would be in your imaginary example, when you replaced the component, the sound probably did change, and in exactly the same way it changed in my imaginary system. Whether or not that change is important to you, and consequently, whether you pay enough attention to it to really notice the change, is what counts.

 

Objectively, the change is almost certainly still there.

 

Yea, those Pangea cables certainly did contain several slivers of silver- they didn't have any slivers of copper in the signal cables, just in the power cables. And it is possible I was influenced to some degree or another by the lack of care in the packaging too.

 

Differences between Karen's hearing and mine? (**Drat that automatic spell checker! **) Certainly environmental impact over the years has had an effect, and just as certainly, our taste in music is affected by the way we hear. The things that are more important to her are present in a greater degree in the types of music she prefers, even though our musical tastes do inter sent to a large extent.

 

Not so sure a sex based difference is in play Jud, but it is possible.

 

-Paul

 

 

 

[ted_b]

listing the cables rather than the category, but whatever. As stated earlier, I use the Wireworld Platinum (Starlight) after trying the stock red one (Starlight) and skipping over the Silver (Starlight). They are very different cables (in very different price points, etc.).

 

I demo'd the Revelation Audio Labs dual conduit cable and it may well replace the Platinum when it returns from RAL. The power isolation brought about a significant reduction in noise floor.

 

[Russ]

I'm using the Pangea USB-PC, but it is the first audiophile USB cable that I've used, so I'm without much of a reference. I've got a few other things to upgrade first, but I'll have to try a different USB cable in the future.

 

[crisnee]

"My only caveat would be in your imaginary example, when you replaced the component, the sound probably did change, and in exactly the same way it changed in my imaginary system."

 

I guess I didn't make it clear enough Paul. I meant that the sound changed similarly with the replacement component in both places. The crux of my point was supposed to be, that the change might be meaningless or meaningful depending on.... And thus the limited value of listening tests as standards for purchasing audio gear.

 

One other thing I meant to ask. Do you and your wife always agree on whether changes you make are improvements and vice versy?

 

-Chris

 

[Thomas J]

Nordost design has the smallest dielectric effect (probably 1.3 dielectric constant). I have found their USB cable performance to be consistent with this. I cut the 5V wire in the Nordost on both ends and replaced that with a Hynes 5V regulator placed near my USB converter, so no radiated mixing of signal with power. Very clean.

 

[Paul R]

You made it clear, I just missed it I guess.

 

No, we don't always agree, on changes, not at all. We do work it out though, and if we don't wind up agreeing on a change, the change is undone.

 

-Paul

 

 

[realhifi]

I use a networked system instead of direct coupled. Plays all formats flawlessly with no favorites and sounds fantastic with no need for high cost USB. I have however heard the differences in USB cables when listening to direct coupled system.

 

They certainly do sound different. So far I'd put my vote in for the Audioquest line. Have not heard the Diamond yet but have the Coffee and think it does sound terrific and is a clear improvement over the Carbon.

 

[realhifi]

"Listening is obviously a skill that one obtains through practice.

 

Knowing what you are listening for is an important part of the learning.

 

-Paul"

 

 

"If it sounds better, it is better" Ivor Tiefenbrun.

 

He was speaking about music. Specifically about listening to music over a hifi. Basically the concept is this; the system that is easier to sing along with and follow the tune, the better it is. Lo and behold, it rings true. I find that the easier it is for me to simply listen to music and "sing" along to the tune the better I like the system. Doesn't matter if the bass goes deep or the treble goes forever or the soundstage is spectacular. If it doesn't sing, I just don't click with it. The difference with Ivor's assumption and Paul's is simple. Ivor thinks anyone can do it. And do it easily. So when you are asking your wife to be an active participant in "listening" to a system for this and that just be sure that she keeps that ear that tells her she is listening to music. The one that tells her she can "sing" along better. The one that tells her it's music.

 

[Paul R]

Not so far apart as all that David. Anyone with working ears can learn to listen, but like everything else, it takes time and effort.

 

Perhaps like learning to read. Reading is pretty much effortless for most people, but that is because they practice it.

 

With Karen and I it is more like a voyage of discovery than work. "I never realized you liked that!" This is not an uncommon expression around our house, and we have known each other since we were kids.

 

-Paul

 

 

[AudioDoctor]

The difference between the way your wife hears the music, and the way you hear the music, are all in your head. That's not to say they do not exist, only that your brains hear and focus on different things intuitively. I suspect that this would be very common if you took a random sampling of society and did some testing.

 

It is my opinion, that our brains are the most important component in the entire system. Also, I suspect, these differences in the way we hear are applied to the components themselves, instead of the mass of gray matter in our heads, and leads to much heated discussion. I would bet that when some matter of disagreement comes up, that in reality, both people are right. I also think that this is a very clear example of why people need to go and LISTEN to the components for themselves, and that Audiogon exists because they can't, and as the example of you and your wife shows, what you hear may not be what I hear, so buying something based on what someone else hears is highly problematic.

 

Anyway, it has been a hellacious weekend, I need sleep but am forcing myself to listen to some music and decompress rather than lay in bed staring at the ceiling,so I apologize if that is not as coherent as I would like it to be. I hope my point came across.