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SACD ripping using your PS3 (part 2)


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Allright, I'm suspecting that is going slightly over my head now so I'll try to recap the essentials and urge you to correct any nonsense:

 

DSD does store quantization noise starting at about 50kHz and mixes it with any musical data present in that domain. On playback the noise is supposed to be filtered out by special filters instead of just applying a steep lowpass filter, where I was convinced the later was true leading me to believe that DSD is meant to encode music that doesn't contain important data in that higher range. Why does Weiss Saracon then apply such a strong lowpass filter starting at about 48kHz and doesn't filter the noise properly if it's supposed to be a high-end product? I was under the impression that noise cannot be filtered easily except by applying a lowpass filter and that this was the reason for pushing the quantization noise to ultrasonic territory, but my best guess is that of all that I've written this paragraph will be the most ill-informed.

 

Finally I want to try and summarize what this means in practice: If I use Saracon for DSD to PCM conversion I am apparently well off by encoding at 24/96 instead of anything higher since Saracon filters everyrhing relevant in the upper range out anyway. On the other hand if I were to get my hands on a "proper" software filter I should use at least 24/176.4, is that correct?

 

Listening Room: ALIX.2D2 (Voyage MPD) --> Arcam rDAC --> Marantz PM-15S2 --> Quadral Wotan Mk V

Drinking Room: ALIX.2D2 --> M2Tech hiFace 2 --> Cambridge Audio Azur 740C --> Rotel RC-06/RB-06 --> B&W XT4

Home head-fi: Grado SR80i, Sennheiser HD 650

On the go head-fi: Sennheiser IE 8

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Have you considered getting a Mytek 192DSD DAC? That _should_ work with ASIO to stream DSD data to the DAC-chip (ESS9016?), and with your player that would be the (currently at least) chepest solution to pöay native DSD on a Windoze PC.

 

Yes, I'd like to get my hands on one, let's see when I have the money... I've been trying to contact them to get info about availability of ASIO driver. But if they provide such, it should work already.

 

 

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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DSD does store quantization noise starting at about 50kHz and mixes it with any musical data present in that domain.

 

This is the root of the misunderstanding, quantization noise is not such a separate thing, it is integral part of quantized signal. Just like in dumb PCM where quantization noise is evenly spread across the bandwidth, but it doesn't have to be.

 

Just another example from another thread, upper channel is 1kHz@-120 dBFS encoded in 192/24 PCM. Lower channel is the same signal encoded in 192/16 PCM. Which one is better? Lower one has higher dynamic range in the lower frequencies!

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/files/sweep-ns-120dB.jpg

Naturally same can be done for 24-bit data too, then the noise is even lower.

 

So I would put it this way: "DSD shapes quantization noise to increase in non-linear way as function of frequency to reach it's peak at Nyquist frequency (1.4 MHz)."

 

Reasons for doing things this way and using SDM instead of PCM in converters is rather long story, so I don't go there now.

 

Why does Weiss Saracon then apply such a strong lowpass filter

 

Only Weiss can answer that one...

 

On the other hand if I were to get my hands on a "proper" software filter I should use at least 24/176.4, is that correct?

 

If you use standard filter, then yes. What is "proper" is more matter of taste.

 

 

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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Thanks Miska!

I'll report (and come) back as soon as I got my Mytek 192DSD.

 

 

 

Esoterc SA-60 / Foobar2000 -> Mytek Stereo 192 DSD / Audio-GD NFB 28.38 -> MEG RL922K / AKG K500 / AKG K1000  / Audioquest Nighthawk / OPPO PM-2 / Sennheiser HD800 / Sennheiser Surrounder / Sony MA900 / STAX SR-303+SRM-323II

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So I would put it this way: "DSD shapes quantization noise to increase in non-linear way as function of frequency to reach it's peak at Nyquist frequency (1.4 MHz)."

 

As cliché as it may sound this is what I meant, but very clearly I was lacking in skill to express that properly. I thank you very much for the clarifications.

 

Additionally I want to ask everyone who already converted DFF files to PCM using Saracon (or something similar) if they also experience static clicks at the beginning and end of the resulting PCM files? If so, how did you go about getting rid of them?

 

Listening Room: ALIX.2D2 (Voyage MPD) --> Arcam rDAC --> Marantz PM-15S2 --> Quadral Wotan Mk V

Drinking Room: ALIX.2D2 --> M2Tech hiFace 2 --> Cambridge Audio Azur 740C --> Rotel RC-06/RB-06 --> B&W XT4

Home head-fi: Grado SR80i, Sennheiser HD 650

On the go head-fi: Sennheiser IE 8

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Thank you for the info. In the meantime I already came across that discussion and did what it suggested i.e. remove 0.00057 seconds from beginning and end using SoX. It worked out perfectly and now I can finally listen to my Avalon SACD at work without having to carry the actual disc with me :)

 

I have one question though: it seems that SoX isn't totally transparent i.e. running

 

sox input.wav output.wav

diff input.wav output.wav

 

says that the files aren't the same. That's a bit of a pain considering that I'm running

 

sox input.wav output.wav trim 0.00057 reverse trim 0.00057 reverse

 

to remove the static clicks at the beginning and end. The fact that I'm using two different effects twice coupled with the non-transparency in a trivial conversion is what worries me. Any thoughts on that?

 

Listening Room: ALIX.2D2 (Voyage MPD) --> Arcam rDAC --> Marantz PM-15S2 --> Quadral Wotan Mk V

Drinking Room: ALIX.2D2 --> M2Tech hiFace 2 --> Cambridge Audio Azur 740C --> Rotel RC-06/RB-06 --> B&W XT4

Home head-fi: Grado SR80i, Sennheiser HD 650

On the go head-fi: Sennheiser IE 8

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Additionally I want to ask everyone who already converted DFF files to PCM using Saracon (or something similar) if they also experience static clicks at the beginning and end of the resulting PCM files?

 

I don't use Saracon, but my own converters. No clicks on realtime conversion nor on offline file conversion.

 

Does it happen for you with all material or with particular files? If latter, I have my guess about the reason.

 

 

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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Unfortunately the only rip I made so far is Roxy Music's "Avalon" and on every track there is a click present at the beginning and at the end about 0.00057 seconds in. As I said I convert with Saracon to 24bit/96kHz WAVs. But apparently I'm not the only one as most of the people using AudioGate or Saracon or even other commercial converters seem to have that problem...

 

Listening Room: ALIX.2D2 (Voyage MPD) --> Arcam rDAC --> Marantz PM-15S2 --> Quadral Wotan Mk V

Drinking Room: ALIX.2D2 --> M2Tech hiFace 2 --> Cambridge Audio Azur 740C --> Rotel RC-06/RB-06 --> B&W XT4

Home head-fi: Grado SR80i, Sennheiser HD 650

On the go head-fi: Sennheiser IE 8

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Unfortunately the only rip I made so far ... But apparently I'm not the only one as most of the people using AudioGate or Saracon or even other commercial converters seem to have that problem...

 

This happens only with rips? Then I'd suspect that the software used to create those files doesn't set certain value in the header correctly...

 

 

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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Miska, it does not depend on the software used to create the rips on a PS3 as confirmed by multiple people in the discussion linked to by lich000king.

 

Audiozorro, if you read the discussion linked to by lich000king you will see that the clicks only present when absolute silence is followed by a more or less immediate onset of music at the beginning of the track.

 

As I've already said the solution presented in the discussion (removing 0.00057 seconds from beginning and end using SoX) works very well even for gapless albums as I've just tested with the DSOTM SACD (which also had the clicks).

 

Finally I want to thank Mr Wicked for the incredible work he has done enabling me finally to transfer my SACDs to wherever I want.

 

Listening Room: ALIX.2D2 (Voyage MPD) --> Arcam rDAC --> Marantz PM-15S2 --> Quadral Wotan Mk V

Drinking Room: ALIX.2D2 --> M2Tech hiFace 2 --> Cambridge Audio Azur 740C --> Rotel RC-06/RB-06 --> B&W XT4

Home head-fi: Grado SR80i, Sennheiser HD 650

On the go head-fi: Sennheiser IE 8

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>> foobar DSD to PCM

 

> foobar DSD to PCM conversions are poor quality

 

> @lich000king

Why?

Is there any evidence this has audible consequences? I'm not particularly worried about what's happening well above the threshold of human hearing.<

 

 

I guess it is because of it's different Dither algorithm.

Anyway, ear is the only reliable judge.

Convert the same file with foobar an with Weiss saracon and you will hear the difference, nothing subtle.

 

Digital Sources: Linn Klimax DS and Audio Note CDT3 + Audio Note DAC 4.1x balanced.[br] Analog Source: Clearaudio Innovation + SME V tonearm + Benz Micro LP S cartridge.[br]Plinius Tautoro Preamp. - Plinius SA Reference Amp.[br]Dynaudio Sapphire Speakers + Velodyne Ultra Subwoofer.[br]Powercords: Elrod Statement Gold.[br]Interconnects and Speaker cables: Kubala-Sosna Elation.[br]Dedicated Power lines for HiFi Stuff.

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@ Sik_Lescinovid

 

>Additionally I want to ask everyone who already converted DFF files to PCM using Saracon (or something similar) if they also experience static clicks at the beginning and end of the resulting PCM files? If so, how did you go about getting rid of them?<

 

I had "artifact" problems between tracks when converting with Saracon setting output file as FLAC

If the same files output is set to WAV (default) no problem at all.

I have converted around 20 so far, no problem with WAVs (later I compress them to FLAC with foobar.

 

Digital Sources: Linn Klimax DS and Audio Note CDT3 + Audio Note DAC 4.1x balanced.[br] Analog Source: Clearaudio Innovation + SME V tonearm + Benz Micro LP S cartridge.[br]Plinius Tautoro Preamp. - Plinius SA Reference Amp.[br]Dynaudio Sapphire Speakers + Velodyne Ultra Subwoofer.[br]Powercords: Elrod Statement Gold.[br]Interconnects and Speaker cables: Kubala-Sosna Elation.[br]Dedicated Power lines for HiFi Stuff.

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BTW DST to DSD problem solved re registering DecoderComp.dll in scarletboook (I had moved the folder resulting in wrong path for DecoderComp.dll)

 

 

Digital Sources: Linn Klimax DS and Audio Note CDT3 + Audio Note DAC 4.1x balanced.[br] Analog Source: Clearaudio Innovation + SME V tonearm + Benz Micro LP S cartridge.[br]Plinius Tautoro Preamp. - Plinius SA Reference Amp.[br]Dynaudio Sapphire Speakers + Velodyne Ultra Subwoofer.[br]Powercords: Elrod Statement Gold.[br]Interconnects and Speaker cables: Kubala-Sosna Elation.[br]Dedicated Power lines for HiFi Stuff.

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There are no clicks whatsoever when I playback DSD files at any of the PCM resolutions. However on my Vista computer I do hear clicks when playing back DSD files at any resolution above 24/96. I am not sure if my problem is a software problem with Vista or hardware problem with a particular motherboard.

 

I also run AudioGate on my MacBook Pro with perfect DSD playback to all PCM resolutions with no problems.

 

Update: I guess since I am only using AudioGate for DSD playback and not conversion to a file for later playback I am not experiencing any clicking problems. I don't know if the realtime conversion and playback of DSD to PCM passes over or doesn't generate this 0.00057 second problem.

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

ones (an issue with several folks who forgot that the SACD feature is very scarce on most PS3 models)

 

Use this table, with numbers like CECHB as a guideline

 

http://www.ps3sacd.com/faq.html#_Toc180147566

 

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in the post I replied to:

"What, other than 3.55 firmware or earlier, should I tell him to look for?"

 

I did that. Yes, you still need to make sure 3.55 or less, just as you said (and firmwmare is not reversible). As stated earlier, the one I've been using is from Ebay (CECHB, firmware 3.2) for $178 plus shipping.

 

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Just trying to make sure I understand it all.

 

First, look for a model/serial number that is on the compatibility list. And, second, verify firmware is 3.55 or earlier.

 

If the unit was not SACD compatible OOB, then there is no way that it can meet the second requirement.

 

Thanks,

Jeff

 

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what does "If the unit was not SACD compatible OOB, then there is no way that it can meet the second requirement." mean? There are plenty of non-SACD capable PS3's with firmware versions all over the map, pre-3.55 and post-3.55!

 

The two ONLY issues are:

1) needs to play SACD's (so it can rip them); many later models of PS3 don't; AND

2) needs to be able to install a custom firmware that is version 3.55, so if the SACD-capable machine you find has been updated with Sony's stock firmware beyond 3.55 (which is often the case, cuz game software often forces firmware updates to stay current) then the unit is not hackable.

 

Both 1 and 2 are needed. Without 1, 2 is moot.

 

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