SACD ripping using your PS3 (part 2)

[audiozorro]

unnecessary compression/decompression.

 

Mr. Wicked mentioned something about the PS3 and I just copied that portion of text from the website on SACDs, but the full link is provided here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Audio_CD

 

I should have just copied the following and left any reference to the PS3 out of the discussion:

 

"To reduce the space and bandwidth requirements of Direct Stream Digital (DSD), a lossless data compression method called Direct Stream Transfer (DST) is used. DST compression is compulsory for multi-channel regions and optional for stereo regions. This typically compresses by a factor of between two and three, allowing a disc to contain 80 minutes of both 2-channel and 5.1-channel sound."

 

I have no interest, use or need for DST especially given the problems Mr. Wicked cited.

 

By the way I use both HQPlayer and AudioGate that read DFF files and convert them to PCM on-the-fly and both are far easier to use for DSD playback than Pure Music.

 

Re DSD disc burning and ISO - last summer I used the method provided by Blue Coast Records and as I recall everything worked fine.

 

http://bluecoastrecords.com/dsd-info

 

 

[ted_b]

It is not what Cookie and company are providing at Blue Coast. That is DSD Disc, a capability of certain Sony products including Viao laptops, the 5400 player, some PS3's, etc.. It is NOT the ripped ISO we are discussing here on this thread.

 

Also, there is no need to be concerned about DST, or to be saying you don't need it. It's just a step in Mr Wicked's ripper process that needs to be done in order to get DFF files from hybrid discs. The decompression takes awhile, so he has PS3 keys to fire up 5 processes for just DST decomp.

 

[wappinghigh]

You may not need to have the .iso file on a separate disc.

 

There are players out their (like the Dune) which will play an .iso backup file straight off their own internal HDD, or even stream a .iso file

 

So they can be streamed, or moved across a network onto a NAS, and stored in a folder like any other file. Then opened up on the player and the menu structure accessed as if they were on a disc

 

Certainly for Movies anyway...

 

VLC does the same.

 

They are in fact true backup's. I'm not saying anything controversial or illegal or anything here.

 

I'm sure you already know this, because it's well know...but others may not be aware...Wap

 

 

 

[ted_b]

it won't get read by those players. You'll either need a scarletbook app from he mind of Mr Wicked, or you'll need an SACD player from the list, and burn to a DVD-R. This is not your fathers ISO.

 

By the way, I successfully grabbed DFF files off my test ISO using Mr Wicked's alpha Windows executable. It's command line to-date, but it worked! Yes!

 

[audiozorro]

Blue Coast Records had provided a method to rip SACDs. I did not state that, I only mentioned that I used their DSD disc burning method.

 

Last summer bought one of the Blue Coast albums as an ISO image file of the DSD discs because the individual DSD dff files were not available online at the time of my purchase. Needless to say I had to go through unnecessary steps using the Blue Coast method just to get the individual DSD dff files that I wanted. A few days later I bought several other Blue Coast records but this time all the albums were available as individual DSD dff files.

 

That's all I want to do is purchase and download DSD dff files. Having two PS3s in the family (the last one was a refurbished player that failed after one day) I believe I have expressed concern over solutions dependent on these used discontinued players especially if it has a later non-compatible firmware.

 

I believe I have also expressed my discontent with any process that takes too long or is complicated. That does not mean that you or others should not rip your SACDs using Mr. Wicked programs and the PS3, but it's not for me. And when Mr. Wicked discussed some of the taxing computing requirements for DST compression/decompressions I was taken aback.

 

Or when I am critical of the way that Pure Music handles DSD (or FLAC) playback it's just that I feel that at least for now, AudioGate on the Mac or Windows and HQPlayer under Windows are by far easier and excellent alternatives. I do own, use and like Pure Music but not for their DSD or FLAC methods of playback.

 

I assume some folks might be critical of my digitizing SACDs into my Korg at 24/176.4 using the Monoprice box (not you since it's your method I am following). Or other folks might be critical of my recording SACDs or vinyl using the analog inputs into the Korg. Even though both of these processes take time since it is recording in real time (digital or analog) the difference for me is that this is real time playback and listening as opposed to using a time intensive effort with no associated listening enjoyment.

 

[wappinghigh]

Ted, understood. Wap

 

[Miska]

None of the DACs I know of will accept a digital stream from an SACD player. I'm guessing this has to do with lack of transports to output pure DSD from an SACD.

 

This is mostly limited since SACD comes with a promise of content protection. So what ever interface is from SACD to any decoder accepting DSD it has to be protected and approved. At the moment practically HDMI and iLink plus some vendor specific interfaces.

 

By the way, some models of Onkyo AVRs have pure-DSD playback mode for DSD-over-HDMI. Most other AVRs accepting DSD over HDMI will just convert it to PCM for playback.

 

However, with DSD Disc and DSD file (DSF/DSDIFF) playback from computer there are no such limitations and that's the area where there will be devices capable of playing DSD data.

 

Then another area is that there are DSD-capable DAC chips, but some convert DSD always to PCM as intermediate format, some don't and some offer options for bypassing the PCM conversion...

 

 

[lich000king]

Mr Wicked,

 

Thanks for the response in the other thread. I have only just seen this one. It's probably better to use continue here.

 

Still I do not quite understand the instructions.

The ps3free-ps3keys-master.tar.gz contains a folder and a file.

Do these two need to reside in the root of a USB-stick plugged into the PS3 in order for SACD-ripper to work, or just the content of the folder?

 

And more importantly,

"Now you've completed the OtherOS firmware upgrade you are ready to install sacd-ripper.pkg."

But where do I get the .pkg?

I can't find it anywhere on the project page.

 

[lich000king]

ok,

 

Apparently I need to compile it myself.

But I can't get PSL1GHT to work on ubuntu 11.04

 

When I try to build one (any) of the samples I get:

 

/usr/local/ps3dev/ppu/lib/gcc/powerpc64-ps3-elf/4.5.2/../../../../powerpc64-ps3-elf/bin/ld: cannot find -lrt

 

Can anyone give me a hint here? I have already spent hours on this.

 

Also, are the ps3libraries needed for sacd-ripper?

 

[Synfreak]

Hi!

 

First let me thank Mr. Wicked for his efforts to get this going!

 

I think I've lokated an PS3 with the needed hardware (early 60gb version) and firmware (2.3), so after it arrived here (next week), I should be able to dig into it.

 

As I'm a complete NOOB on that kind of software/hardware, I' pretty sure I will need some guidance, and hope that one of these who got that working will help me out then ...

 

[lich000king]

Ok, I think I have figured it out. The instructions here

http://psl1ght.net/wiki/TutorialInstall:Debian

seem to work for Ubuntu 11.04.

Maybe the problem was a broken libelf-dev

 

Then when trying to run ./config.sh in libs/libid3tag I get permission denied to configure. I do not understand why, I am root after all.

But I could overcome this by doing

chmod +x configure.

But when running make in the root dir, I get

../libs/libid3tag/lib/libid3tag.a(tag.o): In function `.v2_parse':

 

tag.c:(.text.v2_parse+0x748): undefined reference to `.id3_compat_fixup'

 

collect2: ld returned 1 exit status

 

make[1]: *** [/home/lord/sacd-ripper-read-only/sacd-ripper-read-only.elf] Error 1

 

make: *** [build] Error 2

 

 

 

[ted_b]

with my newly-bought-off-Ebay 20gb PS3 (OtherOS++ firmware, PS3 key and pkg install went quite smoothly) and for those stereo-only SACD's the process is painless and wonderful (less than 10 min per SACD). I now have 24/352.8k versions of Los Lobos This Time, Peter Gabriel-So, etc. As Mr Wicked mentioned in the instructions, the DST-based SACD's are a bit more problematic. The ultimate goal with them is to first simply rip to ISO (thereby saving wear and tear on the more delicate PS3 ripper) and then do all decompressions and DIFF extraction on a more powerful Windows machine. The problem right now is that MR Wicked's Windows programs are not ready for prime time. Without a Windows process you might find the DIFF extraction on a DST'd SACD taking 10x and valuable wear and tear on your PS3.

 

So far, an exciting first step.

 

[audiozorro]

In my earlier post I stated that DST compression is compulsory for multi-channel regions and optional for stereo regions.

 

How do you know if the stereo mix on your SACD has been compressed and requires decompressing?

 

And even though the multi-channel mix on the SACD is compressed, why is the decompression process so painful on users and taxing on the computer? I mean I put a SACD into my Oppo, say the Ladysmith Black Mambazo Long Walk to Freedom which is an original DSD recording, and it plays (or provides DSD output) multi-channel audio right away. What is it that my lowly Oppo can do that my powerful computer cannot do as quickly?

 

I freely admit that there are many things I don't understand but I am willing to learn.

 

[lich000king]

Ok,

Deleted the root directory and downloaded the newest version (197).

Now make worked and created a .pkg ;-)

 

[ted_b]

ripping was not in your future (broken PS3's, etc) you sure ask a lot of questions that would be much more easily answered if you knew what the SACD-ripper did.

 

The DST vs no DST is automatic (i.e is recognized by the ripper and therefore causes it to go through several more ripping/processing steps). Don't ask me why the lowly Oppo does this easily...it's nothing at all the same set of processes. The SACD-ripper is plowing through once-proprietary keys and hidden gems, the Oppo is using its official SACD scarletbook instructions, and not being asked to extract/rip.

 

[audiozorro]

I often either try to get an education or educate myself.

 

I, like so many other CA readers, have been spoiled by the ease of CD ripping. Since easy SACD ripping is not going to happen anytime soon, I can only hope that enough technically and computer savvy people are very successful in ripping SACDs such that labels start to make available DSD downloads. That’s where I come in as a ready and eager buyer.

 

In the meantime my music library consisting of about 4 thousand LPs, 1 thousand CDs, 3 dozen SACDs, 2 dozen DVD-As and 6 Blu-ray music discs shows where I should spend my time in building my computer digital library. I’ve got a lot of vinyl to digitize and CDs to rip.

 

 

[HiFiInsider]

I really wish this could be done on less hard to find hardware. Perhaps the SCD-AX5400 which sends pure DSD stream to HDMI output.

 

[ted_b]

hardware capable of this ripping.

 

[Miska]

I really wish this could be done on less hard to find hardware. Perhaps the SCD-AX5400 which sends pure DSD stream to HDMI output.

 

Quite many (most?) universal players can also send raw DSD stream over HDMI, if the recipient device indicates that it supports DSD.

 

However, those streams are HDCP protected and also lack any information about tracks and such. So ripping it wouldn't be much different from ripping CD's using S/PDIF output of CD-player...

 

Technically HDMI specification covers up to 192 kHz * 64 DSD rate (12.288 MHz), if such would practically exist.

 

 

[Synfreak]

Hi Ted!

 

As you wrote you were able to extract DSDFF files from ISOs (and you are now able to use your PS3 to rip your own SACDs), would you be able to take a closer look into some of the generated files?

 

I spot small "clicks" on the start of every file I've convertet so far ("The Who - Who's Next", you know ;-) ).

 

They show up when converted with Saracon, but also - but to a lesser degree - with Audiogate.

 

One have to zoom in quite a bit (in time domain AND level), and I'm using Wavelab for these purposes. But other progs (like i.e. Audacity) should show these probs too.

 

I want to nail down if this is only in the files I have (currently), or if this is a "ripping problem" ...

 

If to OT here, please send me a private message.

 

Thanks

Harald

 

[Mr Wicked]

this is issue is known and is being worked on:

 

http://code.google.com/p/sacd-ripper/issues/detail?id=6

 

it's still alpha software, remember

 

[Synfreak]

Hi Mr Wicked!

 

Thanks for your fast response!

 

Funny that Saracon and Audiogate seem to convert differently.

With Saracon there are more clicks as when converted with Audiogate.

 

At least that's what I found out until now.

 

Thanks anyway, keep us informed how this project evolves ... ;-)

(because "my" PS3 is confirmed to be shipped, and so it should arrive next week ...)

 

[lich000king]

Ok, I finally got it sorted. Ubuntu did not work.

 

Did a fresh Debian 6 install.

Since I used the liveCD I had to replace the content of /etc/apt/sources.list by

 

# main repo

deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ squeeze main

deb-src http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ squeeze main

deb http://security.debian.org/ squeeze/updates main

deb-src http://security.debian.org/ squeeze/updates main

 

# contrib & non-free repos

#deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ squeeze contrib non-free

#deb-src http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ squeeze contrib non-free

#deb http://security.debian.org/debian/ squeeze/updates contrib non-free

#deb-src http://security.debian.org/debian/ squeeze/updates contrib non-free

 

Then of course

 

apt-get update

apt-get upgrade

 

 

Then I followed the guide here

http://psl1ght.net/wiki/TutorialInstall:Debian

 

NVidia Cg Toolkit is not needed (at least it is ripping without it).

The part about Libelf-dev is not necessary on Debian 6.

 

In order to checkout sacd-ripper I also had to apt-get subversion, first.

 

[ted_b]

(and reported) that occasionally my playback will skip around a little, once even returning to the beginning of a song. This is infrequent, but once is too many.

 

Some of my rips (all 24/352.8k currently) are absolutely the best I've ever heard; however Peter Gabriel's So is quite bright and lean. I need to go back and hear the original SACD through my player.

 

[lich000king]

Hm, which of these multi channel formats do I have to choose in the GUI in order to convert it in foobar later?

 

Edit: Answer: mch DSDIFF (DSD), not the others (I think, I haven't tested DST)