Best DAC ever heard

[tne]

There are number of features on the Blacknote DSS 15 that I find interesting.

Has anyone listened to or compare this with other high performance DACs?

 

Also their DSS 30 Tube looks nice, but a bit pricey for me now.

 

Opinions welcome.

 

Apologies for breaking into the "best DAC ever" thread.....

 

 

 

 

 

[paulr]

Apologies for breaking into the "best DAC ever" thread.....

 

Then why do it? Could you not start a new thread?

 

[paulr]

Apologies for breaking into the "best DAC ever" thread.....

 

Then why do it? Could you not start a new thread?

 

[audiozorro]

remember that there are many DIYers and audio component professionals that are available to often do far superior mods or work that you could do yourself.

 

I believe most stock commercial audio components can be improved. My opinion is that some audio components, like the Metric Halo ULN-8/LIO-8, Phasure NOS1 or Berning ZH-230 cannot or should not be modded since IMO 3rd party mods would only mess things up.

 

My only criteria for DIY or professional mods is that the modded component must be significantly better sounding than the stock or previously modded component. Which to me means that I must have access to a stock component or an identical component with the previous mods. This is not cheap but it is the only way to confirm that subsequent mods are significantly better. I have heard more than enough DIY projects and mods to know that things don't always sound better, though most of the time the modder thinks that they do.

 

[barrows]

Peter: I am not talking about your approach as NOS. You oversample in software, and then send an oversampled signal to your DAC which then processes the stream natively-I would not call this NOS. I think it is fair to call your approach rather unique, and certainly very different from what people are commonly referring to as NOS. I have not had the opportunity to hear a Phasure with XXhighend, so certainly would not attempt to make any comments about how it might sound.

Most people when talking about NOS DACs are referring to the (few) DACs which process the digital data at its native rate.

I am not suggesting that I prefer DACs which do ASRC conversions though (generally speaking I do not). In fact, one of my next experiments is going to be to synchronously clock the ESS chip, thereby defeating the ASRC, and rendering the DPLL moot as well. I want to get some better oscillators in my USB interface first though, to be sure phase noise will be low to begin with.

 

kana: you are wrong, plain and simple. The differences are now big enough that I am confident in my memory. Previous to my last DAC power supply upgrade I was not sure how the PWD and my DAC might compare, but the new power supplies made a huge difference. You are not me, so you cannot have any idea about what I hear, and certainly you have never heard my DAC. I have an open invitation to head over to PS Audio to listen, I might just take my DAC down there at some point for fun...

You say you do not want a DAC which upsamples everything, here I guess you are referring to common use (marketing speak) of upsampling as implying an asynchronous sample rate converter, and oversamplng as a synchronous upconversion? You do realize that even in "native" mode the PWD is still oversampling, right? In "native" mode the PWD is still oversampling at (if I recall correctly) an 8x rate, so it by means is an NOS type DAC. As mentioned, I generally agree that I prefer to not have an asynchronous sample rate conversion going on, and am going to experiment with this approach with my Buffalo and see if it results in an improvement.

 

[barrows]

I have not heard the Weiss DAC202, but I am not surprised that you prefer the PerfectWave. I really think the PerfectWave is great, and a lot of people seem to just think it could not be that good, I guess because it is kind off affordable.

I do not care to be perceived as an "expert", but I will not hesitate to share my real experiences, and I respect others when they share theirs. Certainly I am more expert than you when it comes to comparing the PerfectWave to my own DAC. Additionally, assuming that my DAC sounds anything like a Weiss DAC202 is absurd: these DACs are very, very different. The power supplies in my DAC are way more sophisticated than what is in the DAC202, and the I/V stage couldn't be more different: a simple, no loop feedback, class A discrete bipolar/FET stage in my DAC, and a high feedback, opamp IC based stage in the Weiss.

 

[ted_b]

In "native" mode the PWD is still oversampling at (if I recall correctly) an 8x rate, so it by means is an NOS type DAC.

 

cuz any DAC that oversamples internally is clearly not an NOS DAC, by definition.

 

Kana, I am surprised you laugh at our comments. I mean, you might have a different opinion, but throwing LOL's around (when there is no obvious joke being told) does no good to credibility and civil discussion.

 

Also, instantaneous a/b'ing might be necessary when things are only slightly different in presentation, but when one's upgrade is substantial it is not difficult to remember enough to know it is better (or at least different). If you were to move from a two year ownership of small mini-monitors to large full-range tower speakers, for example, there is little required to remember generally what the bookshelves sounded like vs the new towers. Same goes for any substantial improvement (or change). My Antelope Gold DAC/Voltikus setup is clearly a better fit in my system now than my Weiss DAC2 was (owned for two years); I clearly remember the soundstage depth and width, and the midrange tonality of my Weiss...isn't tough at all.

 

[Paul R]

I honestly do not think I remember what older gear sounded like, but I do remember what I liked about it and how much (or how little) I enjoyed listening to it.

 

Odd that. I can remember the line numbers of interesting bits of code I wrote 30 years ago, but I cannot, for instance, remember the sound of my old Advent speakers, which I listened to for three decades. I remember clearly what I liked about them, and special music I heard through them, or special times/occasions/people, etc. But not the actual sound.

 

I expect were I to hear them again today, I would recognize them though.

 

-Paul

 

 

[dummy]

I thought NOS meant New Old Stock regarding tubes so I though a NOS DAC was a tubed DAC... Doesn't seem It is.

 

What is a NOS DAC then? No need for a super technical explanation here, just a simple one will do for me. A brand name perhaps even?

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

[Highfilter]

To make it easy. A quote from Srajan from 6moons:

 

NOS the third: In tube lingo NOS refers to New Old Stock. Think vintage tubes which are no longer made but were never used. A virgin bottle from the 1960s is thus both new and old. In digital lingo NOS came to mean NonOverSampling since Ryohai Kusunoki's original 1996-1997 three-part paper published in MJ Magazine. It described a very simple DAC without digital filter and oversampling. This led to Junji Kimura's 47Lab DAC as the first commercial sample of the breed. Eventually Kazutoshi Yamada of Zanden would apply the same principle at the very luxury end of the market before Thorsten Loesch followed suit with Abbingdon Music Research. Like chip amps or gain clones, the concept became popular in DIY.

 

[audiozorro]

Here is a brief explanation of DACs:

 

http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/DAC.htm

 

[dummy]

Thanks Guys! I got It now.

 

 

 

[DiminishingReturnsOfficer]

I would like to withdrawal my earlier post about the Marantz CD-12 DAC being the best ever. This afternoon I was approached by 2 gentelmen in a nice white van who sold me the system of my dreams for a mere $300. It is a Paramax; a joint venture between Paramount Studios and the good folks from IMAX Films. I've always been prone to spurts of good luck and, belive me, it doesn't get any better than this! Apparently someone overstocked these professoinal installers with an extra unit (bound for RMAF). Due to this oversight, I was able to pick this little gem up for less than 10% of its retail! I did, however, miss out on a pair of Bjorn & Weilder monitors, and a gorgeous Epiphany Audio turntable.

 

[WarriorAnt]

Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2

 

I use it in my current rig.

 

[tmornini]

I'm pretty anxious to listen to one, but kind of don't want to hear one because it'll torment me if I love it.

 

Actually, that's true about almost everything! I prefer to shop when I can afford to buy. :-)

 

 

[tmornini]

What do you mean when you say "better" hardware?

 

[Walter4Fun]

Would like to add following, IMHO outstanding DAC:

 

ACCUSTIC ARTS TUBE-DAC II

 

now capable to play 24/192.

 

http://www.accusticarts.de/pages/en_tube-dac_ii.html

 

Walter

 

[Lece]

Here are the results from the session from a few weeks ago (the short version):

 

Tied for best overall - The Audio Research DAC8 and the Bel Canto DAC3.5VB. At this level, your choice would be based purely on system pairing and your sonic tastes. Both were grain free and transparent, however each did have a distinct sonic character. The ARC had a taller and wider soundstage with an overall faster/tighter presentation. I heard the most separation between instruments with this DAC and I felt it put instruments in the most natural position within the space when I was listening to it. The Bel Canto had a deeper soundstage with a sweeter tone. I felt that I was getting more high frequency information out of the recordings with this DAC which gave instruments a sense of completeness. If your speakers through a huge soundstage, I feel that you will lean towards the Bel Canto, and if your speakers are more on the sharp and detailed side, probably the Audio Research. Needless to say, both were amazing and I could live happily with either.

 

Second - The Lector Digicode 2.24. This was an amazing DAC and is easily up there with the ARC and BC in terms of quality... but, it only played redbook data. Whatever this DAC lacked in terms of speed and transparency (which was very little), it easily made up for it with its' top level musicality and sonic weight. It was the most "fun" DAC of the test. I am eagerly awaiting to see if an HD version of this unit comes to the market. If this was able to play HD data, I would have to reassess the list, it was really that good.

 

Tied for third - Wyred4Sound DAC2 and the Bel Canto DAC 2.5. Think of these as the younger brothers of the ARC and BC DAC3.5VB. They are great at their price, once again your choice would be based purely on system pairing and your sonic tastes. Much like the ARC, the W4S had a large soundstage with a tight sonic presentation. The BC DAC2.5 had a smaller yet deeper soundstage with its tone leaning towards the sweet side. In comparison to the DAC 8 and 3.5VB, both seemed less refined with a hint of added grain, but at less than half the price that is to be expected.

 

Fourth (and only by the smallest of margins) - The mod'ed Music Hall DAC25.3. This has a strikingly similar tone and presentation to the ARC DAC8 when using the DAC25.3's RCA outputs (these tie in with the tube output stage). For the price, this DAC is a steal, but don't expect all of the nuance and dimension of the top level performers, however you will get awfully close. The RCA output was relatively low and that added some compression to minute details and harmonics. It did have some of the reminiscent "fun" of the Lector, maybe it is the tube? Overall a non fatiguing sound and a solid performer at the price.

 

The rest - The M2Tech Young handled its' decoding stage as well as I expected it to, the only issue is that it did not handle output stage as well. I tried both USB in and AES in, the USB was the superior input for this DAC. The separation of instruments and dynamics it displayed were up there with the top level units, it was just a little grainy and harsh in comparison, which made it fatiguing. This companies first attempt at a full blown DAC was good enough to make me keep a close eye on their future endeavors, they just need to listen to some top level analog sources so that they can get a bar for comparison. Just a note, I did have some issues when using this DAC with Amarra in which it locked my computer (could be my fault, who knows, but it only occurred with this DAC). The PS Audio Perfectwave was a solid performer, but it lacked musicality when compared to the others. Construction and features alone would put this DAC easily at the top, but something just didn't mesh with my test setup. Lack of instrumental weight and subtly combined with pronounced sibilance kept this one off of the top. The dealer suggested that this DAC sounds best when connected to a network using a NAS drive to stream all my music. I tried for 30 minutes to a hour to get it to connect to my network with no success.

 

Thanks to Acoustic Image, Affordable Audio, and Weinhart Design for the use of their products and expert advise.

 

Test System:

 

- Audio Research LS27 / VS115 (KT120's)

- Marchand XM44-2 Balanced Crossover

- Harbeth Super HL5's on S/A Stands

- JL F112 Subwoofers

- M2Tech EVO + CI AUDIO VDC9.0 + Macbook Pro 13" w/ 8GB RAM + Amarra 2.2

- Shunyata Hydra 8 + Power Cords

- Audioquest Analog & Wireworld Digital Interconnects / Straightwire BiWire Speaker Cable

 

I ran everything AES/EBU and XLR out (except with the Music Hall and the M2Tech Young)

 

Music Hall DAC25.3 Mods: Burson OpAmp, Clock, Cap Mods, & Siemens CCA Tube

 

[barrows]

is sounding really great now. Running in synchronous clocking with the ASRC defeated, and two Crystek CCHD-957s oscillators, powered by a two stage isolated power supply (Dexa linear reg, followed by an individual shunt reg for each oscillator) on the asynchronous USB receiver.

Have not made any direct comparisons here, but by memory this is the equal of anything I have heard (including most of the highend DACs, Weiss Media, Scarlatti and Debussy, ARC, etc).

 

[Mark Powell]

Unless you have some serious commercial purpose in mind, have you thought about making circuit diagrams, values, power supplies and everything, available to us here? PC board layout if possible too. I am sure quite some here would like a better DAC than we currently have, without having to pay several thousand dollars for it.

 

Many of us might even be prepared to pay for your efforts!

 

[sandyk]

http://www.partsconnexion.com/prod_pdf/dexa.pdf

$39.95 EACH. (Ouch!)

They are still cheaper than Paul Hynes regulators though.

 

[barrows]

Yeah, I just had the Dexa laying around from a previous project, so this was a good way to put it to use. Nowadays I would probably just build something if starting from scratch.

I really do not have that much to offer in terms of "design", my DAC build is just pieced together from the work of other folks, who are the real people to learn from. I use the Twisted Pear DAC and output stage modules, and the Salas Bib regulator boards (available in group buys at DIYaudio.com), and I am using a SOtM async USB board where I have modified it for the new oscillators and their isolated supplies based on Twisted Pear Trident shunt regulators (Hynes' could possibly be even better). All of this is detailed in the Twisted Pear Buffalo thread in the DACs forum here, which I will updtae in the next couple of weeks with the recent changes.

As you know, this DIY stuff takes time and experimentation, although I am confidently happy with my results so far-I am not knowledgeable/experienced enough to suggest that other folks should copy exactly what I do-in fact, I think everyone interested in experimenting with DIY DACs should experiment. The Twisted Pear stuff is pretty easy to figure out even for total beginers, and the pricing is pretty bearable considering the playback quality which is possible.

 

[sandyk]

"I think everyone interested in experimenting with DIY DACs should experiment"

Hi Barrows

I have lots more time for experimentation, but from my own limited experience, you appear to be ticking all the right boxes,especially with the additional high quality individual PSUs.I wish that I could afford to do more in that area.Recently I was able to compare my own highly modified Silicon Chip magazine DAC with a friend's new Buffalo 3, which had a few PSU improvements. At this stage of his development it was way below the performance of mine in the area of soundstage, especially the 3D area.

Based on this experience, I was left wondering about the performance of the TP shunts, especially as others have reported them lacking. A few have been chastised for daring to mention the PH regs in the TP thread."Leo",for example appeared to attract the attention of a member of the TP team, as that member although never posting, joined a smaller forum that I have previously mentioned, it would appear for the sole purpose of seeing what "Leo" was up to .He doesn't appear to have logged in recently though."Leo" was originally involved in the testing of the PH regs, and was sent several samples to try.

Regards

Alex

P.S.

Have you tried experimenting with selected capacitors directly across the transformer secondary windings ?

470pF 100V perhaps for smaller VA transformers, as a start .

 

[barrows]

I think a lot of people do not understand that the Twisted Pear forums at DIYaudio.com are commercial forums, and as such they do not allow the discussion of competing products on their forums (which they pay for). This appears entirely legitimate to me, and there are plenty of appropriate forums on DIYaudio.com where Hynes, Salas, Jung, and other style regulators can be discussed. Anyone who wants to discuss the use of competing products with Twisted Pear DACs should just do so in the general DAC or power supply forums.

At 2x the price of the TPA Tridents, I would hope the Hynes regs are somewhat better... I have not tried them myself, but Paul Hynes' specs for noise performance (if accurate) are incredibly good. It is really hard to compare these things, as their is no way to A/B them reliably, unless one is willing to build two identical DACs and then just change the regs in one!

Suggesting that the Trident regs are lacking though is really not accurate, they do make a significant improvement on the stock IC regs used on the Buffalo II DAC (LM 317s).

 

"Have you tried experimenting with selected capacitors directly across the transformer secondary windings ?

470pF 100V perhaps for smaller VA transformers, as a start"

 

I have made such experiments (usually 100 nF), but have not heard significant differences. The more I learn about damping networks such as these, the more I realize that trying to implement them without serious test gear (at the very least a very, very good 'scope) is like trying to target shoot in the dark. Throwing caps blindly at things is just as likely to produce more resonances as it is to damp them. The maths and measuring of all the assocated inductances are beyond me.

 

 

[sandyk]

Barrows

I have a copy of the chart at the attached link if anybody wishes to experiment.

Regards

Alex

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/34/capontheacsideofarectif.jpg/