To Re-Rip or not to Re-Rip? That is the question - AIFF vs Apple Lossless

[kennyb123]

I used XLD to rip "Some People's Lives" from the blu-spec CD of Janis Ian's "Breaking Silence". I used XLD's default settings with two exceptions: I changed output format to AIFF and I changed ripper mode to XLD Secure Ripper.

 

I compared this to a previous rip using dbPoweramp. The latter sounded better to my ears. What I noticed first was that the attack of the piano hammers on the XLD rip were blurred, but the difference was a pretty subtle. The two rips distanced themselves when Janis began to sing. With the XLD rip, her voice flattened out in the soundstage. The sense of her moving air that was present in the dbPoweramp rip was nearly absent with the XLD rip. This seemed pretty easy for me to spot, but I think most folks would agree that the differences are subtle.

 

 

 

[Paul R]

I mean size wise and bit wise? Can you run a binary diff on them?

 

If the two files are different, as they different in any way other than name and timestamp?

 

-Paul

 

 

[kennyb123]

If the difference in sound was due to differences in jitter, would this even show up in a binary diff? I'm guessing the answer is probably no.

 

[Paul R]

The file format is decoded to PCM data (or DSD, depending) before it is encoded for transmission over USB or S/PDIF links. Until it is queued for tranmission, there is no jitter. And the encoding is buffered - the computer can feed data to the USB or S/PDIF links far faster than they can accept or transmit it.

 

The point I am asking is simple - the data on the CD is digital, and if accurately copied will be exactly the same, no matter what program ripped it. And even the worst ripper is likely going to sound better than a CD, since the CD does not have time to stop and correct the errors it gets while reading a disk.

 

So, if you can compare the PCM data in each file, and it compares exactly, then you can eliminate the file format totally from your mind.

 

Now, while processing on the computer might change the sound slightly - it probably does - the data contained in a AIFF, ALAC, or FLAC file is exactly the same, bit for bit.

 

I won't dispute that they might sound slightly different, that is true here as well. But the idea that the audio data coming from the file format is somehow different is probably just wrong.

 

 

[Audio_ELF]

There is NO jitter in a stored rip.

 

Eloise

 

[kennyb123]

I have to admit that I have had very little interest in understanding why these rips sound different. It's not like there's a big expense involved here. I probably spend more on coffee each week than I spent to license dbPoweramp. And the Windows PC I use for ripping was purchased almost a decade ago.

 

Of course I did spend a lot of time and effort listening to the rips from these different rippers. Would trying to understand why these ripper sound different have helped to more easily guide me to the right program? No I don't think so. Lot's of folks have been agonizing over why transports sound different since the CD format was first introduced. There are some very good theories, and some even backed up with some good science. But clearly there's more to extracting music from CD that meets the eye.

 

Since the first high-end CD players and transports appeared, the naysayers have been telling us that bits are bits - and that if the data files are exactly the same there should be no difference in sound. My ears have told me that there's more going on here.

 

At the end of the day, all that matters to me is that I'm using the ripper I found to sound the best - and that most of the folks I know with good ears and good systems have reached the exact same conclusion.

 

I appreciate the correction on my misunderstanding of jitter. I shouldn't have waded into the more technical aspects on this.

 

[Audio_ELF]

That's the right attitude; work out what sounds best to you and don't worry about anything else. But then best to stay away from discussions like this as you'll be challenged at every turn...

 

Eloise

 

[Paul R]

But clearly there's more to extracting music from CD that meets the eye.

 

It's all optical as far as I know. (grin)

 

I still think you are laboring under a misapprehension - extracting the "music" off the CD is no different from copying a file from a CD to a hard drive. You don't expect a spreadsheet to give you different results just because you copied it from a CD do you? The same applies with music.

 

In fact, calling it a "RIP" at all is misleading. A more correct term is Digital Audio Extraction. The process never converts the data into music. It is more equivalent to converting an AIFF file to a WAV file (Or ALAC or FLAC) than anything else.

 

-Paul

 

 

 

 

 

[kennyb123]

I'm going to pass on responding to your points Paul. Eloise is correct that it's best that I stay away from discussions like these. All I really care about in regards to ripping is what my ears tell me.

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Kenny - Don't let this wonderful hobby give you a headache. Do your research, make a decision you're comfortable with, and turn up the volume.

 

[kennyb123]

Amen to that Chris!

 

[Paul R]

And wish you well.

 

You did seem like you were interested in finding out what what was causing the difference you hear.

 

Actually I was too.

 

-Paul

 

 

[kennyb123]

If someone were to post a well-researched and well-reasoned explanation describing why these rippers sound different, I would read every word with great interest.

 

What's not so interesting to me is wallowing in the weeds of speculation and conjecture. I have no clue as to why I'm hearing differences, so there's nothing I can really add to this.

 

I didn't think that you trying to stress me out - and I wasn't feeling stressed. I just mentioned that I wasn't planning to respond to your points as I thought it was the polite thing to do as I didn't want to just ignore you.

 

 

 

 

[drewchas]

Ok, let me preface this by saying I'm a bit of a novice compared to y'all, but I tried to hang with the whole thread's train of thought. Here's my dilemma and question based on what I read in the thread's comments:

 

I had my 2005 Mac Mini stolen this year, so I bought a new one. I just started re-uploading my CDs, and I decided to go with AIFF rather than Apple Lossless. Yes, I realize the wisdom of this decision can be debated, but let's table that for now. The problem I'm having is with artwork displaying correctly in iTunes. I know there are some "AIFF metadata" editing programs out there that were mentioned in this thread that might help me solve this problem, but before I get into doing that and discovering my problem still isn't solved for one reason or another, I wondered if anybody had any information to add to Johnny Moondog's comment in the thread from April 2011:

 

"I've recently been informed there is another OS X application in development designed for 'High Quality Audio-CD ripping with a low read speed for so-called secure ripping'. However it is not scheduled for release until the third quarter of 2011."

 

If this application has been released, I'd love to look into it. Perhaps I'll use it instead of iTunes since I'm just at the beginning of re-uploading my CDs. Does anybody have any new info on this OS X application?

 

Thanks for your help in advance, everybody.

 

Andrew near Chicago

[phatoldsun]

Ok, let me preface this by saying I'm a bit of a novice compared to y'all, but I tried to hang with the whole thread's train of thought. Here's my dilemma and question based on what I read in the thread's comments:

 

I had my 2005 Mac Mini stolen this year, so I bought a new one. I just started re-uploading my CDs, and I decided to go with AIFF rather than Apple Lossless. Yes, I realize the wisdom of this decision can be debated, but let's table that for now. The problem I'm having is with artwork displaying correctly in iTunes. I know there are some "AIFF metadata" editing programs out there that were mentioned in this thread that might help me solve this problem, but before I get into doing that and discovering my problem still isn't solved for one reason or another, I wondered if anybody had any information to add to Johnny Moondog's comment in the thread from April 2011:

 

"I've recently been informed there is another OS X application in development designed for 'High Quality Audio-CD ripping with a low read speed for so-called secure ripping'. However it is not scheduled for release until the third quarter of 2011."

 

If this application has been released, I'd love to look into it. Perhaps I'll use it instead of iTunes since I'm just at the beginning of re-uploading my CDs. Does anybody have any new info on this OS X application?

 

Thanks for your help in advance, everybody.

 

Andrew near Chicago

 

Welcome to CA Andrew. I don't know what software is referred to in that post but I use XLD to rip CDs to AIFF and it embeds the artwork into the metadata and I can see it in iTunes and Audirvana Plus every time. Sometimes I have to add the .jpg of the cover art into XLD before I rip or convert but it works.

XLD has extracted music from some severely roughed up discs that iTunes couldn't too.