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Active speakers and DSD


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32 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

@Mike Rubinyou can check Genelec monitors.

There are two categories: “pure” powered and SAM (Smart Active Monitors) which have internal DSP that will downsample/resample everything.

The G and Active two Way Monitors series are “pure” powered while the Ones series are SAM.

Unfortunately none of them have a frontal volume control.

Thanks, Stefano. I was wondering about the Genelecs.  The G3 has been at the top of my list of possibilities, but it is a bit of a financial stretch.  I can live with an external volume control or passive preamp if can position it near my monitor. 

Living room:  Synology 218+ NAS > NUC 10 i7 > HQP Embedded > xfinity Xfi Router > Netgear GS348 Switch > Sonore Optical Module Deluxe > Sonore Signature Rendu SE Optical Tier 2 > Okto DAC 8 Stereo > Topping Pre90 Preamp > Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini > Revel F32 Concertas

 

Computer Desk System: Synology DS-218+ NAS > Dell XPS 8930/NUC 10 i7  > HQP Desktop > xfinity Xfi Router > EtherRegen > ultraRendu > Topping D90 DAC > Audioengine A5+'s

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25 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

Neat. 

 

Sweetwater in the USA has several passive volume controllers that are XLR to XLR.  Those also would make sense for me, as my DAC is XLR out and the G Three is XLR in. 

Living room:  Synology 218+ NAS > NUC 10 i7 > HQP Embedded > xfinity Xfi Router > Netgear GS348 Switch > Sonore Optical Module Deluxe > Sonore Signature Rendu SE Optical Tier 2 > Okto DAC 8 Stereo > Topping Pre90 Preamp > Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini > Revel F32 Concertas

 

Computer Desk System: Synology DS-218+ NAS > Dell XPS 8930/NUC 10 i7  > HQP Desktop > xfinity Xfi Router > EtherRegen > ultraRendu > Topping D90 DAC > Audioengine A5+'s

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I have used an integrated with a passive pre, built-in, a Bow Tech Wazoo. As you turn up the volume, it changes the resistance, so the sound changes (I know, not the best way to describe it, that is what I heard). If going passive make sure it is a buffered passive, so you don't have this issue.

Current:  Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM

DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC 

Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590

Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier

Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers

Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects

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1 hour ago, Otto J said:

Hi Mike,

 

I noticed you linked to this thread from the Focus 10 review.  I'd like to share some input on the design of active speakers, that may or may not be interesting to you.

 

First off, there are different types of active speakers, generally differentiated by whether or not they have an active or a passive crossover. Your speakers have passive crossover, with an amplifier built into one of the speakers. On a conceptual level, this is not considered "active" - this is a signal path that is essentially the same as having a normal amplifier and a pair of passive speakers. The only difference is that the amplifier physically is housed in one of the speakers, rather than in a seperate chassis. This may or may not be practically useful, but it does not provide any performance benefits over passive speakers.

 

In what is considered "true" active loudspeakers, you have an active crossover sitting in the signal path before the power amplifier, which in turns requires one power amplifier per drive unit (or, more accurately, per frequency "way" - you may have two woofers in parallel running from one power amplifier channel, for instance). The crossover and power amplifiers can be housed in the speakers, but even if they aren't, the speaker would still be considered "active".

 

True active loudspeakers can again be divided into two categories: Analogue or digital crossover. A fully analogue, active loudspeaker has no DSP, ADC or DAC, and only analogue input. Note that even though a speaker only has analogue input, it may very well use a DSP based crossover, requiring the signal to be converted to PCM.

 

EDIT: I notice several here commenting that the reason for converting analog to digital in a powered speaker is some sort of EQ. In reality, the main reason is to do the crossover in the digital domain, which has many advantages.

 

This is where it is crucial to understand the following: It is not possible to do a crossover in DSD. To create a digital crossover, the signal MUST be PCM, at any given resolution. This is why it does not make much sense to have DSD input on an active speaker. Whether the speaker's crossover is analog or digital, you will be converting from DSD to either analog or PCM.

 

The question then becomes: What is the ultimate goal of the system? To preserve the DSD signal path, or to provide the best analog output? No matter what your signal path is, it ultimately ends up as analog (because we don't have digital ears).  If you insist on avoiding PCM, you will be limiting the crossover in the active speaker to a simple analog crossover. This for instance means that you will not have one of the biggest benefits of the DSP crossover: True time alignment of the drivers. There are things you can do in a DSP crossover that is simply not possible in an analog crossover, be it active or passive. This is why you will find very few active speakers with analog crossover - the end result will usually be more "true to the source" in the digital crossover, even though it may "feel" wrong to convert to digital and back.

 

On top of this, you should consider that differences in the quality of the speaker drivers and cabinet will easily overshadow the differences in signal paths. A good passive speaker is much better than a bad DSP based speaker.

 

In other words, you basically have three choices in your upgrade path:

 

1: Keep using what is essentially a passive speaker, which will likely require an outboard amplifier and a pair of passive speakers, as not many (if any) high quality "passive with built in amplifier" speakers exist. I can't immediately off the top of my head think of any that are better than what you already have. This is a perfectly valid option, used by the majority of "home audio" users.

 

2: Find an active speaker with a true analog active crossover. As you have experienced, this severely limits your options, but a few does exist.

 

3: Embrace the PCM conversion and consider the analog sound coming out of the speaker as the ultimate goal, which opens up a lot of options for good, true active speaker designs.


/Otto Jørgensen, Dynaudio Academy

Thanks for the thorough explanation Otto. 

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5 hours ago, Otto J said:

Hi Mike,

 

I noticed you linked to this thread from the Focus 10 review.  I'd like to share some input on the design of active speakers, that may or may not be interesting to you.

 

First off, there are different types of active speakers, generally differentiated by whether or not they have an active or a passive crossover. Your speakers have passive crossover, with an amplifier built into one of the speakers. On a conceptual level, this is not considered "active" - this is a signal path that is essentially the same as having a normal amplifier and a pair of passive speakers. The only difference is that the amplifier physically is housed in one of the speakers, rather than in a seperate chassis. This may or may not be practically useful, but it does not provide any performance benefits over passive speakers.

 

In what is considered "true" active loudspeakers, you have an active crossover sitting in the signal path before the power amplifier, which in turns requires one power amplifier per drive unit (or, more accurately, per frequency "way" - you may have two woofers in parallel running from one power amplifier channel, for instance). The crossover and power amplifiers can be housed in the speakers, but even if they aren't, the speaker would still be considered "active".

 

True active loudspeakers can again be divided into two categories: Analogue or digital crossover. A fully analogue, active loudspeaker has no DSP, ADC or DAC, and only analogue input. Note that even though a speaker only has analogue input, it may very well use a DSP based crossover, requiring the signal to be converted to PCM.

 

EDIT: I notice several here commenting that the reason for converting analog to digital in a powered speaker is some sort of EQ. In reality, the main reason is to do the crossover in the digital domain, which has many advantages.

 

This is where it is crucial to understand the following: It is not possible to do a crossover in DSD. To create a digital crossover, the signal MUST be PCM, at any given resolution. This is why it does not make much sense to have DSD input on an active speaker. Whether the speaker's crossover is analog or digital, you will be converting from DSD to either analog or PCM.

 

The question then becomes: What is the ultimate goal of the system? To preserve the DSD signal path, or to provide the best analog output? No matter what your signal path is, it ultimately ends up as analog (because we don't have digital ears).  If you insist on avoiding PCM, you will be limiting the crossover in the active speaker to a simple analog crossover. This for instance means that you will not have one of the biggest benefits of the DSP crossover: True time alignment of the drivers. There are things you can do in a DSP crossover that is simply not possible in an analog crossover, be it active or passive. This is why you will find very few active speakers with analog crossover - the end result will usually be more "true to the source" in the digital crossover, even though it may "feel" wrong to convert to digital and back.

 

On top of this, you should consider that differences in the quality of the speaker drivers and cabinet will easily overshadow the differences in signal paths. A good passive speaker is much better than a bad DSP based speaker.

 

In other words, you basically have three choices in your upgrade path:

 

1: Keep using what is essentially a passive speaker, which will likely require an outboard amplifier and a pair of passive speakers, as not many (if any) high quality "passive with built in amplifier" speakers exist. I can't immediately off the top of my head think of any that are better than what you already have. This is a perfectly valid option, used by the majority of "home audio" users.

 

2: Find an active speaker with a true analog active crossover. As you have experienced, this severely limits your options, but a few does exist.

 

3: Embrace the PCM conversion and consider the analog sound coming out of the speaker as the ultimate goal, which opens up a lot of options for good, true active speaker designs.


/Otto Jørgensen, Dynaudio Academy

Thank you, Otto. I could not have asked for a more thorough discourse.

 

This is for a very specific application.  I have a shortage of desk space and the speakers are very much operating in the nearfield.  See the attached pic. 

 

I have a surplus integrated amp that is likely much better than the amp in a powered - not active - speaker, but I haven't encountered a lot of small passive speakers that are better than what I already have for nearfield listening. The amp also won't fit easily into the available space. 

 

I have gathered that it, in 2022, it is a rare nearfield speaker that has an actual analog signal path through its analog inputs.  Hence my comment on Chris' review.  I suspect that the few left in the marketplace were designed many years ago, in fact.  I am having a hard time identifying them and then determining which, if any, are likely to be improvements over my current pair in this application. 

 

This system shares a large NAS-based music database with a much better system. I have accumulated as many hi-res files as I can, including a lot of ripped SACD's that I converted after my SACD player died.  I am reasonably confident that DSD files sound at least slightly better than PCM files. I also can enjoy DoP where the DAC can't play back native DSD. I like upsampling to DSD or DoP with HQPlayer. On the whole, I have found that higher resolutions in the signal path do make at least as much difference in quality as do some of the usual audiophile system tweaks and tuning measures. 

 

I thus am just a bit skeptical that, after starting out with a higher resolution before conversion to analog, I am going to improve sound quality by playing back at 24/92 or 24/192.  Is this skepticism unwarranted?  Your comment suggests that it is. 

20221102_162549.jpg

Living room:  Synology 218+ NAS > NUC 10 i7 > HQP Embedded > xfinity Xfi Router > Netgear GS348 Switch > Sonore Optical Module Deluxe > Sonore Signature Rendu SE Optical Tier 2 > Okto DAC 8 Stereo > Topping Pre90 Preamp > Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini > Revel F32 Concertas

 

Computer Desk System: Synology DS-218+ NAS > Dell XPS 8930/NUC 10 i7  > HQP Desktop > xfinity Xfi Router > EtherRegen > ultraRendu > Topping D90 DAC > Audioengine A5+'s

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"24/92" obviously was something I should have caught when proofreading. 

Living room:  Synology 218+ NAS > NUC 10 i7 > HQP Embedded > xfinity Xfi Router > Netgear GS348 Switch > Sonore Optical Module Deluxe > Sonore Signature Rendu SE Optical Tier 2 > Okto DAC 8 Stereo > Topping Pre90 Preamp > Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini > Revel F32 Concertas

 

Computer Desk System: Synology DS-218+ NAS > Dell XPS 8930/NUC 10 i7  > HQP Desktop > xfinity Xfi Router > EtherRegen > ultraRendu > Topping D90 DAC > Audioengine A5+'s

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6 hours ago, Otto J said:

This for instance means that you will not have one of the biggest benefits of the DSP crossover: True time alignment of the drivers.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that listening nearfield as Mike does will obviate this advantage, and it may even do more harm than good if the time alignment is set for a listening distance of, e.g., 6-10ft. Perhaps there are speakers where this is adjustable, but I wonder what they might cost.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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5 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that listening nearfield as Mike does will obviate this advantage, and it may even do more harm than good if the time alignment is set for a listening distance of, e.g., 6-10ft. Perhaps there are speakers where this is adjustable, but I wonder what they might cost.

I am not the actual engineer, so I may want to ask for backup to go deeper here, but I'm not sure I follow why the listening distance would have any relevance to this. 

 

/Otto Jørgensen, Dynaudio Academy

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35 minutes ago, Otto J said:

I am not the actual engineer, so I may want to ask for backup to go deeper here, but I'm not sure I follow why the listening distance would have any relevance to this. 

 

/Otto Jørgensen, Dynaudio Academy

 

My thinking was incorrect regarding the mechanism that would cause lack of time alignment, so you're right, distance would not be relevant.  It might not be the worst idea to tilt desktop speakers back a bit, though.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker_time_alignment .

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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I'm aware of a few brands that offer Active speakers with just an Amp that I suspect will sound better than the OP's Audioengine's do but I've forgotten if there was a certain budget here? A few off the top of my head are below:

 

More Expensive Options:

Genelec

ATC

 

Lower Cost Options:

Yamaha

JBL

 

Also to mention, I am aware of at least one outboard DAC that uses a separate DAC section for DSD music that is said to use an Analog DSD conversion method.  Bricasti comes to mind.

 

I've not tested this but for those that hear differences between DSD and PCM the question becomes would you still hear those differences after the signal passes thru an Active speaker with a built-in AD/DA converter that changes everything fed to it whatever Bit/Sample Rate PCM is being dictated at the Input? I'm not sure how this plays out if using DOP. I guess it depends on whether or not the built-in AD/DA within the Active knows how to handle a DOP signal. I believe DOP uses a 24/176 PCM wrapper, at least for DSD64 content if I'm not mistaken.

 

In all honesty, I can't say I notice much difference between DSD and PCM content these days anyway. Ever since I started using DSP Vol control, DSP Room Correction and also started converting everything to 24/192 PCM. With the same exact Speakers and Amp prior to the above changes I could indeed notice differences between PCM and DSD. DSD having a warmer, softer sound to it. I actually prefer the sound of PCM.

 

Personally I don't like the idea of my speakers making the the above choices for me. Especially when this behavior can't be bypassed. I think the ideal setup is one with just a dumb array of speakers in a dumb box with no x-overs at all. Then you use computer based DSP/x-overs to feed each driver via a multi-channel DAC then onto dedicated Amps for each driver section. In this way you have full control of everything but I understand that many may not want to be that involved in the process : )

 

 

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1 hour ago, cjf said:

I'm aware of a few brands that offer Active speakers with just an Amp that I suspect will sound better than the OP's Audioengine's do but I've forgotten if there was a certain budget here? A few off the top of my head are below:

 

More Expensive Options:

Genelec

ATC

 

Lower Cost Options:

Yamaha

JBL

 

Also to mention, I am aware of at least one outboard DAC that uses a separate DAC section for DSD music that is said to use an Analog DSD conversion method.  Bricasti comes to mind.

 

I've not tested this but for those that hear differences between DSD and PCM the question becomes would you still hear those differences after the signal passes thru an Active speaker with a built-in AD/DA converter that changes everything fed to it whatever Bit/Sample Rate PCM is being dictated at the Input? I'm not sure how this plays out if using DOP. I guess it depends on whether or not the built-in AD/DA within the Active knows how to handle a DOP signal. I believe DOP uses a 24/176 PCM wrapper, at least for DSD64 content if I'm not mistaken.

 

In all honesty, I can't say I notice much difference between DSD and PCM content these days anyway. Ever since I started using DSP Vol control, DSP Room Correction and also started converting everything to 24/192 PCM. With the same exact Speakers and Amp prior to the above changes I could indeed notice differences between PCM and DSD. DSD having a warmer, softer sound to it. I actually prefer the sound of PCM.

 

Personally I don't like the idea of my speakers making the the above choices for me. Especially when this behavior can't be bypassed. I think the ideal setup is one with just a dumb array of speakers in a dumb box with no x-overs at all. Then you use computer based DSP/x-overs to feed each driver via a multi-channel DAC then onto dedicated Amps for each driver section. In this way you have full control of everything but I understand that many may not want to be that involved in the process : )

 

 

Thanks.

 

You have identified my concern, exactly. I can’t swear that I hear much difference, if any, between native DSD and DoP, but I am confident that I have heard differences between lower and higher resolution files, especially with the Topping D90 DAC that I will be using with the powered speakers, assuming I do decide to buy some.  This desktop system shares a NAS with a better system that makes high res files sound pretty good, either as native DSD or as upsamples using HQPlayer.
 

As you suggested, I want to avoid having my DSD files downsampled by a powered speaker that applies digital processing to everything it’s fed.  However, based on what I have read in this thread, I may be making a mountain out of a molehill, as fully-active speakers supposedly can do a great job with all signal at no more dollars spent than on an analog-only pair.

 

Thanks for the brand suggestions. Genelecs with XLR inputs are on my short list, although, at $1400, they’re more than I want to spend.  My sales guy at Sweetwater prefers the Focals at about the same money, so I guess I will be looking into those, too.  The Yamahas and JBL’s would save some money, but, honestly, I don’t know that they’re any better than the Audioengines that I now use.

Living room:  Synology 218+ NAS > NUC 10 i7 > HQP Embedded > xfinity Xfi Router > Netgear GS348 Switch > Sonore Optical Module Deluxe > Sonore Signature Rendu SE Optical Tier 2 > Okto DAC 8 Stereo > Topping Pre90 Preamp > Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini > Revel F32 Concertas

 

Computer Desk System: Synology DS-218+ NAS > Dell XPS 8930/NUC 10 i7  > HQP Desktop > xfinity Xfi Router > EtherRegen > ultraRendu > Topping D90 DAC > Audioengine A5+'s

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4 hours ago, firedog said:

 

The only disadvantage of DoP is that it requires double the PCM resolution of the incoming DAC for DSD rates (352k to accept  DSD 128 and 708k to accept DSD 256, and so on) - but this is simply a quirk of the incoming USB setup and the ability of the DAC USB to receive the USB shell, and as noted above, has zero to do with the actual DA conversion of the DSD, which is the same in both cases.


Or in Mike’s case and others who like to do software conversion to DSD, a setup stout enough to convert to “native” DSD512 in order to get DSD256 over DoP. Many computers that can easily convert to DSD256 with, for example, HQPlayer and certain filters and modulators won’t easily reach DSD512. So there is a practical effect in terms of resolution and modulators, though whether changes would be audible, who knows?

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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