Active speakers and DSD

[Mike Rubin]

This might be a dumb question. If it is, I expect it can be disposed of quickly. 

 

I have lots of DSD files and use HQPlayer to upsample everything to DSD. I presently use the version of Audioengine A5+ speakers that does not have Bluetooth.  As far as I know, that speaker has an entirely analog signal path, so, if I feed it DSD, it plays DSD.   

 

I am looking at a compact powered speaker upgrade.  These days, most consumer-grade powered speakers have DACs built in, but those DACs don't handle DSD at all. 

 

I have been assuming that going through these speakers' analog inputs will allow me to play DSD from my external DAC, but I am not positive about this, so I ask: even if I play through analog inputs, do today's powered speakers convert all signals to the digital formats that their DACs can handle or are the analog inputs likely to play back whatever they are fed? 

 

In other words, am I limited to playing back the formats the speaker DACs can process, regardless of input? 

 

I know I can buy pro monitors that will play back whatever I throw at them and I may go that route, but I first want to look at speakers that have easy-to-reach volume controls in the form of front-mounted knobs or remotes with "mute" buttons. If I am limited by those products only to certain file formats, I will look at pro speakers and a passive preamp. 

 

Thanks for your guidance. 

[musicjunkie917]

If a speakers does not have a DAC built-in....you cannot feed it DSD. Some DAC will feed it an analog signal directly or indirectly. If that DAC handles DSD then you can use DSD as a source. The speaker has no way of knowing what the digital format of the music was nor does it care.

[Mike Rubin]

Just now, musicjunkie917 said:

If a speakers does not have a DAC built-in....you cannot feed it DSD. Some DAC will feed it an analog signal directly or indirectly. If that DAC handles DSD then you can use DSD as a source. The speaker has no way of knowing what the digital format of the music was nor does it care.

Thanks for your response. 

 

I feed the Audioengine speakers dsf files directly from my DAC every time I play music through them, so I really don't understand your first sentence. 

 

Here is my dilemma:  The built in DACs in consumer-oriented powered speakers generally top out at 24/96 or 24/192 PCM and they don't advertise DSD compatibility, even with DoP.  I thus have no idea what they do with DSD files, i. e., whether they downconvert or go silent. (I have devices with built-in DACs, like TV soundbars and a NuPrime amp, that do one of those things or the other, so there is no universal outcome to this dilemma.) 

 

What I am asking now is whether these speakers play back signals through the analog input just as those signals come from the external DAC or whether they convert all input to whatever format the built-in DAC can process.  

[musicjunkie917]

2 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

I feed the Audioengine speakers dsf files directly from my DAC every time I play music through them, so I really don't understand your first sentence.

 

No, you don't. You feed the DAC DSF files.....the DAC converts that digital format to an analog signal and feeds that analog signal to a preamp, an amp, or speakers with a built in preamp and amp such as your Audioengine A5+ speakers. The difference is important.

[Mike Rubin]

Just now, musicjunkie917 said:

 

No, you don't. You feed the DAC DSF files.....the DAC converts that digital format to an analog signal and feeds that analog signal to a preamp, an amp, or speakers with a built in preamp and amp such as your Audioengine A5+ speakers. The difference is important.

Thank you. I understand that a DAC outputs an analog signal, not a digital one, but expressed myself incorrectly.  I stand corrected.

 

I still would like to know whether DAC-equipped speakers leave the analog input signals in the analog domain or if analog signals are digitally processed just like signals coming through the built-in DAC directly. I understand that some current integrated amplifiers do that very thing, even to signals from phonograph cartridges, so I hope that isn't a frivolous question. 

[firedog]

21 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

Thanks for your response. 

 

I feed the Audioengine speakers dsf files directly from my DAC every time I play music through them, so I really don't understand your first sentence. 

 

Here is my dilemma:  The built in DACs in consumer-oriented powered speakers generally top out at 24/96 or 24/192 PCM and they don't advertise DSD compatibility, even with DoP.  I thus have no idea what they do with DSD files, i. e., whether they downconvert or go silent. (I have devices with built-in DACs, like TV soundbars and a NuPrime amp, that do one of those things or the other, so there is no universal outcome to this dilemma.) 

 

What I am asking now is whether these speakers play back signals through the analog input just as those signals come from the external DAC or whether they convert all input to whatever format the built-in DAC can process.  

You have to find out how each speaker model handles analog. If they play analog directly, or convert to digital internally before feeding the signal to the internal DAC. If they play analog without coversion, just feed them analog (from DSD) directly from your DAC. 

If they convert analog to digital, then it's just an extra conversion step you don't need. I think most do this. But some don't. That's why you'd have to check.

My guess is that most can't accept a direct feed of DSD in digital form at all. So you have to feed them DSD pre coverted to either analog or PCM. 

[musicjunkie917]

4 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

I still would like to know whether DAC-equipped speakers leave the analog input signals in the analog domain or if analog signals are digitally processed just like signals coming through the built-in DAC directly. I understand that some current integrated amplifiers do that very thing, even to signals from phonograph cartridges, so I hope that isn't a frivolous question. 

 

If the active speakers have analog inputs, to my mind, it makes no sense to convert the analog signal to digital and then back to analog again. But, who know what happens out in the real world. You'll have to look at how any given set of active speakers handles analog input signals. 

[Mike Rubin]

Thanks, guys. Unfortunately, I am not seeing anything at manufacturer sites about how analog signals are processed in these speakers. Maybe that is because it's a non-issue, with analog staying analog when played back. I can email the manufacturers to ask about specific models if I narrow my choices to a final few. 

[Kal Rubinson]

1 hour ago, Mike Rubin said:

Thanks, guys. Unfortunately, I am not seeing anything at manufacturer sites about how analog signals are processed in these speakers. Maybe that is because it's a non-issue, with analog staying analog when played back. I can email the manufacturers to ask about specific models if I narrow my choices to a final few. 

If I assume that the model you have is the A5+ CLASSIC (A5+ without BT or other digital/network options), I will say that it is entirely analog and there are no facilities or options to process any inputs other than to amplify them.

[davide256]

2 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

Thank you. I understand that a DAC outputs an analog signal, not a digital one, but expressed myself incorrectly.  I stand corrected.

 

I still would like to know whether DAC-equipped speakers leave the analog input signals in the analog domain or if analog signals are digitally processed just like signals coming through the built-in DAC directly. I understand that some current integrated amplifiers do that very thing, even to signals from phonograph cartridges, so I hope that isn't a frivolous question. 

In general it’s more work to do an a/d conversion vs connect directly into analog. The only reason to do this is if the design omits an analog volume control. If the design doesn’t include a volume knob potentiometer be suspicious that analog is being digitized for volume control

[firedog]

3 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

Thanks, guys. Unfortunately, I am not seeing anything at manufacturer sites about how analog signals are processed in these speakers. Maybe that is because it's a non-issue, with analog staying analog when played back. I can email the manufacturers to ask about specific models if I narrow my choices to a final few. 

I forgot to mention that if the speakers have any kind of DSP processing going on, then all  input is being converted to PCM of some sort.

 

Manufacturers don't mention the issue because it isn't an issue for most users. They especially don't care about DSD, because it is a niche format within a niche market. This site couldn't be more unrepresentative of the overall market when it comes to DSD. Here it's a big deal; in the outside world it's barely a blip on the market picture. 

[Mike Rubin]

1 hour ago, Kal Rubinson said:

If I assume that the model you have is the A5+ CLASSIC (A5+ without BT or other digital/network options), I will say that it is entirely analog and there are no facilities or options to process any inputs other than to amplify them.

Correct, Kal. More recent active speakers have digital circuits, though, and those are the signal paths that aren't obvious to me. 

[Mike Rubin]

19 minutes ago, firedog said:

I forgot to mention that if the speakers have any kind of DSP processing going on, then all  input is being converted to PCM of some sort.

 

Manufacturers don't mention the issue because it isn't an issue for most users. They especially don't care about DSD, because it is a niche format within a niche market. This site couldn't be more unrepresentative of the overall market when it comes to DSD. Here it's a big deal; in the outside world it's barely a blip on the market picture. 

For desktop use, I don't think I want to incur the added expense or deal with the extra labor of configuring DSP in a speaker. I will continue to rely on HQPlayer for that. 

 

The speakers I have been eyeballing that have DACs are from sellers like SVS, KEF, Vanatoo, and Kanto. I have no idea if any of them is better than the Audioengine for my purpose, but I wanted to learn more before starting a deep dive into specific models. None of those brands mentions how it handles analog signals from the RCA inputs. 

[Kal Rubinson]

16 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

Correct, Kal. More recent active speakers have digital circuits, though, and those are the signal paths that aren't obvious to me. 

Audioengine is not very communicative about anything digital and there are no references to any internal digital and/or DSP.  In fact, they seem to refer inquiries about digital to websites like this one.  Somewhat disappointing and unsophisticated.

[Kal Rubinson]

22 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

The speakers I have been eyeballing that have DACs are from sellers like SVS, KEF, Vanatoo, and Kanto. I have no idea if any of them is better than the Audioengine for my purpose, but I wanted to learn more before starting a deep dive into specific models. None of those brands mentions how it handles analog signals from the RCA inputs. 

It is likely that they will convert analog inputs to digital, especially if they do any sort of EQ/DSP.   

[Mike Rubin]

2 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

It is likely that they will convert analog inputs to digital, especially if they do any sort of EQ/DSP.   

I don't think the ones I mentioned do DSP, but I could be wrong about that. There isn't a lot of transparency on the manufacturer websites about this topic. 

 

The safest path might just be to get a pro market monitor like the Genelecs and a passive preamp.  Like the Audioengine, those only have analog inputs. (Lots of them have only TRS inputs for balanced.  Are XLR to TRS adaptors any good?) 

 

[cjf]

1 hour ago, Mike Rubin said:

I don't think the ones I mentioned do DSP, but I could be wrong about that. There isn't a lot of transparency on the manufacturer websites about this topic. 

 

The safest path might just be to get a pro market monitor like the Genelecs and a passive preamp.  Like the Audioengine, those only have analog inputs. (Lots of them have only TRS inputs for balanced.  Are XLR to TRS adaptors any good?) 

 

For some reason many of the Active speaker manufacturers are pretty sneaky about mentioning what happens to the signal that is fed to them unfortunately. Either that or they are making a massive assumption that someone who buys their product already knows what is going to happen to the signal feeding their active speaker.

 

I had plans on buying a set of Genelec "The Ones" awhile back until I found out that an Analog signal fed to them will in fact be automatically converted to Digital at a Max Bit/Sample Rate of 24/192. If a higher res digital file is fed to it, it will be down sampled to 24/192. No mention of this anywhere in their documentation or on their website. I had to email Support and ask them flat out. In reality I have no issues with UP/DOWN conversions to 24/192 as I do this now anyway but what I dont like is being mislead.

 

I found this pretty baffling considering their intended audience (ie..music creators, mastering engineers..etc). If your creating DSD content why on earth would you want it to be down sampled by the speaker itself before you even get to hear what the original content actually sounds like. Even more baffling is that they include an "Analog" XLR Input but it gets converted to digital anyway. Sneaky bastards!

 

In any case, I opted for a pair of their regular Active monitors (8020d) with just an Amp inside it. These will keep things in the Analog Domain and play whatever you feed them without conversions to digital. They are very impressive sounding for their size FWIW

[Kal Rubinson]

1 hour ago, Mike Rubin said:

I don't think the ones I mentioned do DSP, but I could be wrong about that. There isn't a lot of transparency on the manufacturer websites about this topic. 

I believe the KEFs do.

1 hour ago, Mike Rubin said:

The safest path might just be to get a pro market monitor like the Genelecs and a passive preamp.  Like the Audioengine, those only have analog inputs.

I don't follow this segment of the market much but I don't think that is a guarantee.

1 hour ago, Mike Rubin said:

(Lots of them have only TRS inputs for balanced.  Are XLR to TRS adaptors any good?) 

Why not?  There is only a physical, not an electrical, difference. 

[cjf]

Nothing wrong with XLR to TRS cables. I use them all the time and both are balanced just the same. Assuming you use a good cable brand of course. I use Mogami Gold

[cjf]

Sorry Kal, I guess we were typing at the same time about the TRS cables

[Mike Rubin]

10 minutes ago, cjf said:

Nothing wrong with XLR to TRS cables. I use them all the time and both are balanced just the same. Assuming you use a good cable brand of course. I use Mogami Gold

Thank you, gents.  I have decent XLR cables now and just need the connectors.  An adaptor should be all I need, I think. 

[firedog]

9 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

I don't think I want to incur the added expense or deal with the extra labor of configuring DSP in a speaker.

With these types of speakers there generally isn't any configuring of the  internal DSP; it simply happens inside the box. It's a way of optimizing the signal for the internal hardware configuration. 

[Mike Rubin]

7 hours ago, firedog said:

With these types of speakers there generally isn't any configuring of the  internal DSP; it simply happens inside the box. It's a way of optimizing the signal for the internal hardware configuration. 

I didn't realize that. I was thinking of speakers that ship with microphones like the iLouds and some that have lots of different setting switches on the backs. 

 

I spent last night looking online at active speakers. Between the ones with built-in DACs and the ones with the dip switches, I am wondering if there are any that don't convert analog to digital. Needless to say, there is zero transparency about this topic. 

 

I don't care if the analog signal I send is converted, but I hope that, after being upsampled, it then isn't downsampled.  But, candidly, at my age and with my tinnitus, who knows if I even actually could hear the effects of that?

[firedog]

18 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

But, candidly, at my age and with my tinnitus, who knows if I even actually could hear the effects of that?

Even not taking that into account, in a well desinged speaker, the internal ADC will be transparent to the ear. It is well within the ability of modern technology. 

[stefano_mbp]

@Mike Rubinyou can check Genelec monitors.

There are two categories: “pure” powered and SAM (Smart Active Monitors) which have internal DSP that will downsample/resample everything.

The G and Active two Way Monitors series are “pure” powered while the Ones series are SAM.

Unfortunately none of them have a frontal volume control.