Thinking of adding an amp to my JBL A190 floorstanders: thoughts?

[Amko]

Greetings all. I currently have:

 

- JBL A190 floorstanders. Rated at 20-225W. 91 dB sensitivity. 4-8 ohm impedance.

- The amp is a Cambridge Audio Topaz SR 10, 85W x 2 at 4 ohm.

- My space is 14ft x 14 ft x 14 ft. Not small, but not large either. Cement/brick/plaster/paint. A door, a window, a slat just behind the left speaker (go figure). A cupboard that takes up half the left wall. Tall-ish bookshelves crammed with books. A rug, an armchair, a sofa.

- Looking to get some more oomph from the amp and ready to upgrade.

- Now to the interesting bit: an audio/acoustics consultant suggested I could 'get away with' an amp in the region of 300W. He recommended the Crown XLI 800. More info from the manufacturer:

 

The Crown XLi 800 is a PA Power Amplifier, offering 300 Watts per Channel @ 4 Ohms. The XLI Series of power amplifiers from Crown represents a new era in affordable, quality power amplification. All four models in the series are powerful, rugged and reliable. They are suited for  musicians, DJs, and entertainers as well as houses of worship, discos, and pubs. The four models in the series are the XLi800, XLi1500, XLi2500 and XLi-3500. They are identical except for output power. Features include RCA and XLR inputs, user selectable input sensitivity of 0.755V or 1.4V, Speakon and binding post outputs, stereo/parallel/bridge-mono mode, power/fault/signal presence/clip indicators, forced-air cooling; and protection against shorts, no-load, on/off thumps and  radio-frequency interference. With over six decades of experience designing and building rock-solid products, Crown is the standard in amplifier technology.

 

He also thought the Crown XLI 1500 - the 450 W model - would be compatible with the JBL A190s. What do you think? Would I be destroying my speakers with either of these amps?

 

Edit:

 

The specs of the Crown XLI 1500 (450W) are:

- 4 ohm stereo per channel 450 W

- 8 ohm stereo per channel 330W

- 8 ohm bridge mono 900W

 

Any thoughts welcome. Thanks.

[botrytis]

Overkill.

[jcbenten]

For less money (unless you are buying used) you can get this, or similar, and will most likely sound better and offer more capability: Amazon.com: Edifier WiFi Audiophile Active Bookshelf 2.0 Speakers, Wireless Hi-Fi Bookshelf Speaker, Works with Alexa, Supports AirPlay 2, 120W RMS Sound System with Bluetooth/Optical/RCA x 2/Coaxial - Pair : Electronics

 

 

[Amko]

58 minutes ago, botrytis said:

Overkill.

Really. Quick moment to elaborate? Thanks. 

 

Would the Crown 800/1500 play well with the JBLs?

[Amko]

51 minutes ago, jcbenten said:

For less money (unless you are buying used) you can get this, or similar, and will most likely sound better and offer more capability: Amazon.com: Edifier WiFi Audiophile Active Bookshelf 2.0 Speakers, Wireless Hi-Fi Bookshelf Speaker, Works with Alexa, Supports AirPlay 2, 120W RMS Sound System with Bluetooth/Optical/RCA x 2/Coaxial - Pair : Electronics

Couldn't be happier with the speakers/specs -that, and they're new. Was asking about the 2 Crowns, actually. Would they be compatible.

 

51 minutes ago, jcbenten said:

 

 

 

[botrytis]

It would work, probably and sound great to boot, but that could get stupid loud, fast. I have a similar size room and using a Benchmark AHB2 pushing Wharfedale Linton Heritage speakers, in a room that size, and it can get stupid loud.

 

What are you trying to get out of the system as it currently sits? Bi-amping is a crap shoot as your speakers are pretty efficient, so a little power goes a long way here. Usually, I have found, that bi-amping seems to help more with inefficient speakers and even then, is it that much different than from one amp? These are the questions I think will help you to determine what you like or dislike. Try it and see. My opinion is probably not, but you might like it.

[Amko]

Botrytis, thanks for your detailed answer. My JBLs are in fact bi-wired (not bi-amped) with QED Original Bi-Wire speaker cable. I don't know where the folks here stand on bi-wiring and I have heard great argument about it, and decided to invest in a set of QEDs. I did some A/B testing and some of the group I polled seemed to like it. Myself, I really could not tell any significant difference. That said I have a Yamaha R-N303 (Natural Sound Network Receiver) but I confine its use to wi-fi (Spotify) over my network, and also use my iFi Neo iDSD + Headphone Amp (balanced cable, HiFiMan Sundaras).

 

But you're right of course, I too am of the opinion that I need to try it and see. I was just hoping for some validation as to a 450 W amp and  225 W speakers working ok? What do you think? If you're snowed, a yes or no will suffice just fine. Thanks again!

 

 

[botrytis]

Simple answer - Not Sure? 😁

[davide256]

JBL’s have a particular coloration well suited to acoustic rock and roll but not well suited to orchestral. Because they are very efficient the quality of the amp matters more than the  quantity of watts. Crown makes concert venue amps, not noted for subtlety. You would be better off looking for a quality 50~100 watt amp with a high damping factor to control your bass driver. My college system many years ago was JBL speakers with Yamaha separates… it was nice, rocked the house for parties but had mediocre resolution. I suspect Bryston would serve you better than Crown

[Amko]

Excellent point. Had a set of JBL XE 4's in my early career. Agree with you regarding the sound profile. The A190s really rock, since I do listen to rock, predominantly.

 

Bryston appear to be way out of my league. Checked the price list.

 

I know Crown from way back, before Harman acquired them. Will audition them at home and see...

 

Oh and I do have 2 50-100 w amps, a Cambridge Audio and a Yamaha. No complaints.

 

Thanks for sharing. 

[Amko]

Morning! An interesting development earlier today, which got me posting again.

 

Could a 750 W (@4 ohm)/500 W @ 8 ohm x 2 Crown power amp (model: XLi 2500) be compatible with JBL A190 floorstanders rated 25-225 W RMS ? I see a deal on this amp  that lets me get it for the price of the 450 W model I mentioned earlier here. I checked reviews on Sweetwater for this model, they were by reviewers that had speakers much smaller (eg: bookshelf?)  than my JBL A190s. Reviewers were unanimous in praise. I notice though that there is no subwoofer port. And no remote. Both not deal-breakers.

 

My use cases: (impromptu) disco, quiz night at local pub, the occasional wedding.

[GregWormald]

As far as damage goes when playing loud, you are much more likely to cause harm with a low-powered amp rather than an "over-powered" amp as long as you aren't trying to get more out of the speakers than they are capable of giving.

As stated above quality is more important than quantity and going way over on the quantity of watts will mean a sacrifice in quality.

An issue you haven't mentioned is the 14 foot cube of a room. The height, width, and length being the same are entirely likely to have negative effects on the sound without some room treatment. 40, 80 and 160 Hz are likely to resonate.

[Amko]

Greetings GregWormald and thanks.

 

a. When it comes to "trying to get more out of the speakers than they are capable of giving": yes Sir. Thank you for reminding me regarding under vs. over-powered amps.  I rarely listen to music during weekdays but there are definitely times when I'll put on a record on the weekend - often a double or even triple album. At such times family is out and I'll hit -28 dB or more on the Cambridge. No chance of clipping and/or voice coils and components melting.. I just threw in a Behringer Ultragraph Pro into the signal chain and that has been a qualitative change.  This is a surgical software EQ.This graphic EQ comes with a Frequency Detection System and I'll watch for the problem frequencies you've mentioned.

 

I just get the feeling that I do need to push those 225 W JBLs, you know?

 

b. Going way over the quantity of watts: if this is true then with that 500W x 2 (@ 8 ohm) I'll know to leave that damn gain control (L and R) on the Crown XLi 2500 well enough alone...but read on below.

 

c. 14 foot cube of a room: So I've cleared out a cupboard and a couple of bookshelves - and re-measured the room. New dimensions are:  front wall - behind the floorstanders - 14 feet; wall to left - 11 feet; ceiling -11 feet. Now the Behringer Ultragraph Pro (model FBQ6200HD for those interested) comes with a pink noise generator (signal generator), generating a signal. Room resonance and sound transfer characteristics of the PA system cause some frequencies to be prominently present and not others. More details on request. I will certainly be mindful of those problem frequencies.

 

[GregWormald]

19 hours ago, Amko said:

I just get the feeling that I do need to push those 225 W JBLs, you know?

IME most systems sound better when the headroom is generous. Loud bass notes can ask for much more power on the transients than most people expect. My 3-way actives have 800 watts on tap and are current drive and I bet at my regular volumes I'm not using more than a very few watts—except for the bass transients.

[Amko]

So, took the plunge and ordered a Crown XLS 2002 - Drivecore 2 series - had to start somewhere. The 2502 - much celebrated on Y*t*be.com and elsewhere was, unsurprisingly out of stock across my country, or too pricey for me. So, the 2002, 10% discount.

 

The 2002 outputs 650 W per channel @ 4 ohm, 375W @ 8 ohm. My speakers are rated at 6 ohm - wattage for 6 ohm is not published in the Crown user manual. JBL does not mention a continuous power rating for the A190s. So how to calculate the corresponding wattage for the amp and check compatibility with the speakers? Using simple mathematics I came up with 433 Watts but no idea if this is correct. For all you know I could be flying in the dark.

 

As I wait - the XLS should be delivered later today hopefully - I am on the Crown website - reading this detailed information:

https://www.crownaudio.com/how-much-amplifier-power

in particular the section titled "How much power can my speakers handle?"

 

How much power can my speakers handle?

You can determine this by looking at the speaker's data sheet. Look for the Nominal Impedance spec. Typically it will be 2, 4, 8 or 16 ohms. Next, look for the loudspeaker specification called Continuous Power Handling or Continuous Power Rating. It might be called IEC rating or Power capacity.

If you can prevent the power amp from clipping (by using a limiter), use a power amp that supplies 2 to 4 times the speakers continuous power rating per channel. This allows 3 to 6 dB of headroom for peaks in the audio signal. Speakers are built to handle those short-term peaks. If you cant keep the power amp from clipping (say, you have no limiter and the system is overdriven or goes into feedback) the amplifier power should equal the speakers continuous power rating. That way the speaker wont be damaged if the amp clips by overdriving its input. In this case there is no headroom for peaks, so youll have to drive the speaker at less than its full rated power if you want to avoid distortion.

If you are mainly doing light dance music or voice, we recommend that the amplifier power be 1.6 times the Continuous Power rating per channel. If you are doing heavy metal/grunge, try 2.5 times the Continuous Power rating per channel. The amplifier power must be rated for the impedance of the loudspeaker (2, 4, 8 or 16 ohms).

Here's an example. Suppose the impedance of your speaker is 4 ohms, and its Continuous Power Handling is 100 W. If you are playing light dance music, the amplifier's 4-ohm power should be 1.6 x 100 W or 160 W continuous per channel. To handle heavy metal/grunge, the amplifier's 4-ohm power should be 2.5 x 100 W or 250 W continuous per channel.

If you use much more power, you are likely to damage the speaker by forcing the speaker cone to its limits. If you use much less power, youll probably turn up the amp until it clips, trying to make the speaker loud enough. Clipping can damage speakers due to overheating. So stay with 1.6 to 2.5 times the speaker's continuous power rating.

[Amko]

So to continue (sorry if this is getting to be a long post):

 

https://www.themasterswitch.com/how-to-match-speakers-and-amps

 

Safety First

Here's our disclaimer: If you blow up your speakers, or your amp, it's your fault. Got it? Good.

 

Ask a dozen audio experts about how much amplification a speaker needs given its power handling rating and you'll get a dozen different opinions. We've seen recommendations for ten percent more Continuous Power over a speaker's comparable power handling capabilities. We've also seen recommendations for doubling a speaker's Continuous Power rating. These recommendations likely spawn out of the belief that too little power is what damages speakers rather than too much. It actually goes both ways. (Greg - this the point you made earlier.)

 

Guess I won't really know unless I hook up both the Crown and the JBLs up and take it from there. Will update tomorrow.

[GregWormald]

JBLs are not noted for being backwards at producing volume so I suspect that your ears will give out long before the amp or speakers. The only caveat for generously powered amps is be careful of someone wanting to see how loud 11 is.🤣

[Amko]

That's true: if anything they may be forward? Several reviews I read prior to purchasing the JBLs made mention of this. 

 

I recall the Spinal Tap film and the 11 mark on the volume pot. Interesting you should mention it.

 

So, in preparation of this evening's Crown XLS test, I have:

 

- Eliminated 1 set of cables from the JBL speaker terminals - since the XLS cannot be bi-wired (but can be bi-amped - don't really know how to do this)

 

- Using Marantz CD transport as a source - RCA on the Marantz to TS on the XLS

- As second source (Marantz is out of the chain now), using my iFi Neo iDSD + Headphone DAC - XLR to XLR. I'm curious as to the outcome. Previously I've connected the DAC + Audirvana music manager on Windows 10 to my Cambridge Audio. The sound was detailed, but I felt a distinct lack of oomph.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Amko]

So, update. I'll keep it short, all is going just great. The power on the Crown amp 433 W married to the JBLs @ 20-225W and the Marantz CD (Transport) serving as primary source for the time being for ease of use (no turntable or subwoofer). CD choices: Metallica - Ride the Lightning for sheer ferocity and Roger Waters - Amused to Death - recorded in Q Sound so don't really miss the subwoofer.

 

For the money I would say that the Crown 2002 is a great mix of refinement, insight and attack and insane power but which I expected - anyway see the volume level in the photos, that is 90 dB. A shouty Rodney Dangerfield. An excellent choice in retrospect (and this ain't post-purchase reassurance - I'm a born skeptic so this Crown does earn my grudging respect).

 

Quick and crappy cellphone photos follow. Make of them what you will.

 

More reactions follow next week, with other sources including my iFi DAC, Pro-ject Essential III turntable and of course I'll be renewing my pleas regarding how to hook up a sub to this bad boy.

Thanks for reading, wish you a pleasant weekend.