Anyone end up with cheap class d?

[Mike Rubin]

11 minutes ago, ericuco said:

There are several companies that have incorporated the Hypex and Purifi class D modules into a number of different configurations (e.g., mono blocks, integrated, multi-channel).

 

Nord and Apollon are two well known companies. I had a pair of Nord mono blocks based on the Hypex NC500 modules for years and happy with. Purifi modules gets really good reviews here on AS. Both Hypex and Purifi modules were designed by Bruno Putzey(?) who also did work for Mola Mola.

 

On the higher end, Rogue Audio has the Dragon and Sphinx hybrid amps. Atma Sphere just released a Class D amp.

 

Lot of options and price points.

Thanks. Any specific integrated configuration to which you can steer me? Google hasn't been helpful and I would rather stay away from separates (such as power amps without preamplification and multiple inputs) due both to cabling requirements and to cabinet space and power outlet limitations. 

[ericuco]

13 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

Thanks. Any specific integrated configuration to which you can steer me? Google hasn't been helpful and I would rather stay away from separates (such as power amps without preamplification and multiple inputs) due both to cabling requirements and to cabinet space and power outlet limitations. 

Here is what Nord offers. Doesn’t look like Apollon offers integrated amps. Rogue Audio Sphinx is hybrid (tubes and Class D).

 

I don’t have experience with these particular amps.

[Mike Rubin]

16 minutes ago, ericuco said:

Here is what Nord offers. Doesn’t look like Apollon offers integrated amps. Rogue Audio Sphinx is hybrid (tubes and Class D).

 

I don’t have experience with these particular amps.

Ah, thank you for the Nord reminder. I totally forgot about Nord. They have been out of stock on their integrateds for quite awhile. 

[Jud]

Remind me if the Okto has volume control or not.

[Mike Rubin]

19 minutes ago, Jud said:

Remind me if the Okto has volume control or not.

It does, although I leave it with fixed output and play into the STI-500’s one XLR input. (It only has XLR outs.)

 

I could use it as a preamp, I am sure, but I still occasionally listen to records through a step up device. I also have a simple Chromecast Audio that tends to work even when the NUC/router/switch/EtherRegen/clock/streamer/DAC signal path is in a mood.  For those reasons, at least two RCA inputs also needed. 

 

[DuckToller]

2 hours ago, Jud said:

Remind me if the Okto has volume control or not.

Okto does have volume control and a sweet apple remote.

[DuckToller]

6 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

I have asked this before, but haven't heard anything more on this specific topic for awhile. 

 

I have been a Class D owner for years.  My current amp is an original generation Wyred 4 Sound STI-500 that is based on the B&O ICE modules that, I gather, haven't been updated for quite awhile. There is nothing wrong with it and it meets my preference for an integrated form factor, no internal DAC or streamer (because I need to know that I can continue to play Native DSD), at least one balanced input set, and multiple RCA inputs for phono and the Chromecast Audio that is my backup digital source when my steamer setup is behaving dickishly.  I would like to consider upgrading to more current tech, especially given the raves I see in current reviews of Class D amplification. 

 

Unfortunately, I mostly have seen the current Class D modules offered in power amps. Have any of you seen them appear in integrateds similar to the W4S? I know that NAD offers some but that company's DAC inputs don't support Native DSD playback and I don't want to pay for a DAC that I will bypass with an external DAC connected via balanced outputs. (My Okto only has balanced outputs.). Technics also has a $10k amp that I understand to be Class D but I really would like to stay both less expensive and physically massive. 

 

Am I looking for a unicorn? 

You may want to look here

https://primare.net/product/i35-modular-integrated-amplifier/

[Mike Rubin]

28 minutes ago, DuckToller said:

You may want to look here

https://primare.net/product/i35-modular-integrated-amplifier/

Thanks. This looks terrific.

[Jud]

Or you could try something as simple as this (or something just a bit larger and more sophisticated in their line with a remote) for the phono and Chromecast, though that would require you to flip two switches on the Apollon 1ET400A Mini to go to its RCA inputs:

 

https://www.schiit.com/products/sys

 

This would still be quite compact, though it would involve a second box and so might not be what you want.

[Mike Rubin]

19 hours ago, Jud said:

Or you could try something as simple as this (or something just a bit larger and more sophisticated in their line with a remote) for the phono and Chromecast, though that would require you to flip two switches on the Apollon 1ET400A Mini to go to its RCA inputs:

 

https://www.schiit.com/products/sys

 

This would still be quite compact, though it would involve a second box and so might not be what you want.

Not bad and priced right, but I would like it better if it had a remote, 'cause I'm lazy like that.  🤪

[GUTB]

On 8/24/2022 at 2:20 PM, TimF said:

Wondering how many of you who’ve run a number of amplifiers over the years have ended up with class d? Particularly interested in those who’ve gone from much more expensive amps to cheaper class d.

 

Cheers Tim 

I've owned a diverse string of class D amps over the years. My first experiment was with an older Teac integrated with, if I recall correctly, an ICEpower. I hated it, the worst sound I've heard from an amp. A pro amp I forget the name of, uses a proprietary module ("Core 2"?). Very poor-sounding amp. Gave it around 1000 hours of burn-in but I don't think it made much of a difference. I gave it a shot due to the huge numbers of """audiophiles""" on the internet recommending it as a killer bargain for amazing sound. That experience taught me to discard non-audiophile opinions. A stereo custom amp based on the newer (at the time?) Pascal module...can't remember the name, but the manufacturer was based in Texas. This was the first time I had heard any class D sound something other than trash. It was actually "okay" but still missing too many elements I value in audio. Bought a used Cherry amp used which was honestly too under-powered for my system so I can't really say much about the sound in good faith. It's moved into a PC sound system role where it remains to this day. Cherry amps use some sort of parallel module that allows it to produce very high bandwidth for a class D. Then these rare earth modules came out by Technics and I was excited to try it out -- the thing with these GaNFET (Gallium Nitride) units is that they can put out something like double the bandwidth of tradition units. I have it over a 1000 hours of burn-in and it ended up being flat, stale and undynamic. Imaging was average and nothing special as I recall. I quickly gave up on it and sold it for a pretty steep discount.

 

And finally, I have a stereo amp from VTV based on the Purifi 1ET400A modules. I'm currently testing it. I spent a lot of time trying different opamp inputs from VTV who offers a range of options. I finally got to the wildly expensive Weiss opamps which I found to be the clear winner in sound quality. Passably dynamic sound, but soundstage is fairly wide but unconvincing. I also think there's a major mid-range suck-out. These issues may come from the extremely cheap Mbl preamp clone I got a for a few hundreds bucks off AliExpress. I'm waiting for a new set of tubes to come in for my Freya which constantly eats tubes and generates bad noise / distortion. I also have a Yaqin all-tube preamp but that's single-ended only so to make it work my DACs I need to use SE-Bal transformers (AliExpress) so that's not an ideal solution IF it improves the sound. Hopefully I'll have results soon.

 

So, long story short -- I haven't heard a class D in my home which I would be satisfied with. Dynamic power. Large soundstage with pin-point imaging. Clear, vibrant and forward midrange. These are major elements in what I would call great audio, and which have been lacking to one degree or another in class D...so far. If the VTV us a wash, maybe monoblocks using the new Purifi high-output modules is worth a try as it boosts current delivery from 25A to 40A which is a big increase which would be helped by a monoblock design further. 

[Jud]

2 hours ago, GUTB said:

I've owned a diverse string of class D amps over the years. My first experiment was with an older Teac integrated with, if I recall correctly, an ICEpower. I hated it, the worst sound I've heard from an amp. A pro amp I forget the name of, uses a proprietary module ("Core 2"?). Very poor-sounding amp. Gave it around 1000 hours of burn-in but I don't think it made much of a difference. I gave it a shot due to the huge numbers of """audiophiles""" on the internet recommending it as a killer bargain for amazing sound. That experience taught me to discard non-audiophile opinions. A stereo custom amp based on the newer (at the time?) Pascal module...can't remember the name, but the manufacturer was based in Texas. This was the first time I had heard any class D sound something other than trash. It was actually "okay" but still missing too many elements I value in audio. Bought a used Cherry amp used which was honestly too under-powered for my system so I can't really say much about the sound in good faith. It's moved into a PC sound system role where it remains to this day. Cherry amps use some sort of parallel module that allows it to produce very high bandwidth for a class D. Then these rare earth modules came out by Technics and I was excited to try it out -- the thing with these GaNFET (Gallium Nitride) units is that they can put out something like double the bandwidth of tradition units. I have it over a 1000 hours of burn-in and it ended up being flat, stale and undynamic. Imaging was average and nothing special as I recall. I quickly gave up on it and sold it for a pretty steep discount.

 

And finally, I have a stereo amp from VTV based on the Purifi 1ET400A modules. I'm currently testing it. I spent a lot of time trying different opamp inputs from VTV who offers a range of options. I finally got to the wildly expensive Weiss opamps which I found to be the clear winner in sound quality. Passably dynamic sound, but soundstage is fairly wide but unconvincing. I also think there's a major mid-range suck-out. These issues may come from the extremely cheap Mbl preamp clone I got a for a few hundreds bucks off AliExpress. I'm waiting for a new set of tubes to come in for my Freya which constantly eats tubes and generates bad noise / distortion. I also have a Yaqin all-tube preamp but that's single-ended only so to make it work my DACs I need to use SE-Bal transformers (AliExpress) so that's not an ideal solution IF it improves the sound. Hopefully I'll have results soon.

 

So, long story short -- I haven't heard a class D in my home which I would be satisfied with. Dynamic power. Large soundstage with pin-point imaging. Clear, vibrant and forward midrange. These are major elements in what I would call great audio, and which have been lacking to one degree or another in class D...so far. If the VTV us a wash, maybe monoblocks using the new Purifi high-output modules is worth a try as it boosts current delivery from 25A to 40A which is a big increase which would be helped by a monoblock design further. 

 

So, connected to a series of unsatisfactory tube preamps, the Class D amps have given unsatisfactory sound, and it is obviously the fault of the amps. Got it.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

I've used different "class D" amps over the years. The first ones I found interesting were the Kharma MP150 (also designed by B.Putzey), which I had briefly a long time ago. I owned and used for quite a while the Hypex NCore (DIY build) which were fine in my (at the time) modest rig. More recently, I tested for a few weeks the Purifi amp from audiophonics (https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/power-amplifier/audiophonics-hpa-s400et-amplifier-class-d-stereo-purifi-2x400w-4-ohm-p-14393.html).

 

The Audiophonics Purifi offered a clean (which is good) and effortless sound when compared to a Lavardin integrated amplifier and another similarly priced amplifier.

 

I also briefly compared the Audiophonics Purifi amp with my "no amp" ECDesigns powerDAC-S, and the Purifi amp (with and without the buffers, which can be deactivated) did not reach the level of purity in sound that I get from the ECDesigns "amplifier" (with Silversmith audio speaker cables and open baffles) - the Purifi amp was compared using the ECDesigns powerDAC-R as a DAC/Preamp, in order to get a fair comparison without introducing another DAC or preamp. The two "amps" are completly different beasts, and the ECDesigns amplifier is only rated 4 watts, but the comparison is still interesting, IMO.

 

Are the Purifi amps giant-killers when compared to other conventional high-end amplifiers ? I would not know. For the money, compared to similarly priced amplifiers, I believe the Purifi amps are a no-brainer. 

[Jud]

4 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

Not bad and priced right, but I would like it better if it had a remote, 'cause I'm lazy like that.  🤪

 

With remotes you have a choice of $300 for 64 step volume control or $600 for 128 step volume control.

 

https://www.schiit.com/products/saga-s?Finish=560&Voltage=373&Plug Type=375&

 

https://www.schiit.com/products/freya-s

 

(Assuming the solid state models would be the choice because cheaper and why have to fiddle with tubes for occasional listening?)

 

Either plus the Apollon Mini gets you a Purifi based amp plus preamp with remote for phono and Chromecast for just over half the cost of the Primare. 

 

So you've got choices. 🙂

[Mike Rubin]

5 hours ago, Jud said:

 

With remotes you have a choice of $300 for 64 step volume control or $600 for 128 step volume control.

 

https://www.schiit.com/products/saga-s?Finish=560&Voltage=373&Plug Type=375&

 

https://www.schiit.com/products/freya-s

 

(Assuming the solid state models would be the choice because cheaper and why have to fiddle with tubes for occasional listening?)

 

Either plus the Apollon Mini gets you a Purifi based amp plus preamp with remote for phono and Chromecast for just over half the cost of the Primare. 

 

So you've got choices. 🙂

Looks like the Freya has both balanced and RCA inputs, so I could continue to switch between all three sources and control volume remotely as I do now with the existing integrated. In that price range, I think there are a number of additional options that exclude DAC, have a remote, and include both inputs, like the Topping Pre. 

 

There always is something, though.  Whether there is room on the shelf depends on the sizes of the preamp I want and the Apollon.  Plus, the manufacturer of my balanced interconnects no longer is in business and used cables are impossible to find despite my saved Audiogon and Audiomart searches for them, so I either have to replace two XLR cables or go with a different brand between pre and power. 

 

Looks like I do have options, as several posters have said, but your recommendation of the Apollon as the amp of choice goes a long way with me. 

[Jud]

8 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

Looks like the Freya has both balanced and RCA inputs, so I could continue to switch between all three sources and control volume remotely as I do now with the existing integrated. In that price range, I think there are a number of additional options that exclude DAC, have a remote, and include both inputs, like the Topping Pre. 

 

I was running my DAC through my much loved Spectral preamp, then tried it direct to amp. The difference was enough that I won't go back, even if it means throwing a couple of switches on the Mini from time to time.

 

Regarding XLR cables, I love the stuff from here, and it's inexpensive:

 

https://www.ghentaudio.com/part/a18-360.html

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, Jud said:

I love the stuff from here, and it's inexpensive:

Nice people as well. 

[botrytis]

I use Blue Jean Cables, and the gents there, met at AXPONA this year, were the nicest people. I was offered a tour of their factory also, now I need to get to Seattle....

[botrytis]

42 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

I was running my DAC through my much loved Spectral preamp, then tried it direct to amp. The difference was enough that I won't go back, even if it means throwing a couple of switches on the Mini from time to time.

 

Regarding XLR cables, I love the stuff from here, and it's inexpensive:

 

https://www.ghentaudio.com/part/a18-360.html

 

I will have to try those - thanks!

[Mike Rubin]

57 minutes ago, Jud said:

Regarding XLR cables, I love the stuff from here, and it's inexpensive:

 

https://www.ghentaudio.com/part/a18-360.html

I use their ethernet and power supply DC cables. Can't beat the service or the pricing.  Never tried their signal  cables, though.

 

Over the years, I have gone to a nearly-single-maker loom from the now-defunct Acoustic BBQ, whose owner retired last year.  All Dueland wire and, to my imperfect ears, amazing bang for the buck. If I run directly from DAC to amp, I can avoid the need to use a second XLR. Volume control with a Logitech Harmony just gets a little more complicated when I add the pre for the other inputs.  

 

I have taken this thread off-course, so won't belabor my desires any longer. Thanks, gents, for the info.

[GUTB]

On 9/21/2022 at 6:45 AM, Jud said:

 

So, connected to a series of unsatisfactory tube preamps, the Class D amps have given unsatisfactory sound, and it is obviously the fault of the amps. Got it.

Some of those amps were integrated.

 

I haven't given up on class D completely as of yet. Also, another mention of the Kharma which I had completely forgotten about. I heard it somewhere (AXPONA?) and I distinctly remember thinking "wow that's good". The only time I've ever heard a class D sound high end. Sadly I only got to listen to it briefly and in a show environment which isn't the greatest.

[davide256]

On 9/21/2022 at 5:32 AM, GUTB said:

I've owned a diverse string of class D amps over the years. My first experiment was with an older Teac integrated with, if I recall correctly, an ICEpower. I hated it, the worst sound I've heard from an amp. A pro amp I forget the name of, uses a proprietary module ("Core 2"?). Very poor-sounding amp. Gave it around 1000 hours of burn-in but I don't think it made much of a difference. I gave it a shot due to the huge numbers of """audiophiles""" on the internet recommending it as a killer bargain for amazing sound. That experience taught me to discard non-audiophile opinions. A stereo custom amp based on the newer (at the time?) Pascal module...can't remember the name, but the manufacturer was based in Texas. This was the first time I had heard any class D sound something other than trash. It was actually "okay" but still missing too many elements I value in audio. Bought a used Cherry amp used which was honestly too under-powered for my system so I can't really say much about the sound in good faith. It's moved into a PC sound system role where it remains to this day. Cherry amps use some sort of parallel module that allows it to produce very high bandwidth for a class D. Then these rare earth modules came out by Technics and I was excited to try it out -- the thing with these GaNFET (Gallium Nitride) units is that they can put out something like double the bandwidth of tradition units. I have it over a 1000 hours of burn-in and it ended up being flat, stale and undynamic. Imaging was average and nothing special as I recall. I quickly gave up on it and sold it for a pretty steep discount.

 

And finally, I have a stereo amp from VTV based on the Purifi 1ET400A modules. I'm currently testing it. I spent a lot of time trying different opamp inputs from VTV who offers a range of options. I finally got to the wildly expensive Weiss opamps which I found to be the clear winner in sound quality. Passably dynamic sound, but soundstage is fairly wide but unconvincing. I also think there's a major mid-range suck-out. These issues may come from the extremely cheap Mbl preamp clone I got a for a few hundreds bucks off AliExpress. I'm waiting for a new set of tubes to come in for my Freya which constantly eats tubes and generates bad noise / distortion. I also have a Yaqin all-tube preamp but that's single-ended only so to make it work my DACs I need to use SE-Bal transformers (AliExpress) so that's not an ideal solution IF it improves the sound. Hopefully I'll have results soon.

 

So, long story short -- I haven't heard a class D in my home which I would be satisfied with. Dynamic power. Large soundstage with pin-point imaging. Clear, vibrant and forward midrange. These are major elements in what I would call great audio, and which have been lacking to one degree or another in class D...so far. If the VTV us a wash, maybe monoblocks using the new Purifi high-output modules is worth a try as it boosts current delivery from 25A to 40A which is a big increase which would be helped by a monoblock design further. 

hmm. My experience doesn't match yours using the GaN Orchard Audio mono blocks. The issue I've experienced with Magnepans is that the amps I've owned sound nice on main instruments but accompanying instruments become vague, you end up raising the volume to loud levels in order to hear background details

more clearly  { prior amps include Bryston B60, Prima Luna Prologue Premium 60w integrated , Musical Concepts Hafler  100w separate amp}. Low bass was also

always an issue, seemed like the bass below 40hz was doubling {2x frequency}, a displacement vs natural rolloff. Very happy with the clarity of class D for bass

and mid range, detail is good even at reduced volume levels and low bass is correct for frequency balance within the rolloff limits of my speakers.

 

I do note that while I can hear more treble details using a passive preamp, with my current digital source SQ limitations there are irritants that a tube pre soothes,

avoids listening fatigue. My current goal is to improve source server/DAC solution to where the irritants are tamed  using passive pre or XLR direct from DAC

vs use a tube pre as a filter.

[botrytis]

17 hours ago, davide256 said:

hmm. My experience doesn't match yours using the GaN Orchard Audio mono blocks. The issue I've experienced with Magnepans is that the amps I've owned sound nice on main instruments but accompanying instruments become vague, you end up raising the volume to loud levels in order to hear background details

more clearly  { prior amps include Bryston B60, Prima Luna Prologue Premium 60w integrated , Musical Concepts Hafler  100w separate amp}. Low bass was also

always an issue, seemed like the bass below 40hz was doubling {2x frequency}, a displacement vs natural rolloff. Very happy with the clarity of class D for bass

and mid range, detail is good even at reduced volume levels and low bass is correct for frequency balance within the rolloff limits of my speakers.

 

I do note that while I can hear more treble details using a passive preamp, with my current digital source SQ limitations there are irritants that a tube pre soothes,

avoids listening fatigue. My current goal is to improve source server/DAC solution to where the irritants are tamed  using passive pre or XLR direct from DAC

vs use a tube pre as a filter.

 

Maggies are one of the hard loads on amplifiers people talk about.

[Jud]

22 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

Maggies are one of the hard loads on amplifiers people talk about.

 

Though the recent good Class D amps have so much power into low impedance loads that even the bigger Maggies should not be a problem.

[botrytis]

43 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Though the recent good Class D amps have so much power into low impedance loads that even the bigger Maggies should not be a problem.

 

The proper one has to be chosen. One that can handle lower ohms.

 

https://www.audioresurgence.com/2014/05/magnepan-mg-3-6r-speaker-review.html

 

In the review, it explains it. If the Class D can put out below 2 ohms, you got the right amp.

 

I am not talking about the new low-end model, but the high-end only.