TimF Posted August 24, 2022 Share Posted August 24, 2022 Wondering how many of you who’ve run a number of amplifiers over the years have ended up with class d? Particularly interested in those who’ve gone from much more expensive amps to cheaper class d. Cheers Tim Link to comment
Apollo Posted August 24, 2022 Share Posted August 24, 2022 I have replaced my Ayre M-R Twenty by Apollon PNC1200 monoblocks. As I absolutely love the sound quality of my Apollon amps, this was (for me) a no brainer as I paid less for the Apollon amps thsn What I got ad resale value for the Ayre amps TimF 1 Link to comment
TimF Posted August 24, 2022 Author Share Posted August 24, 2022 Thanks, how would you describe the differences? 🙂 Link to comment
Axiom05 Posted August 24, 2022 Share Posted August 24, 2022 3 hours ago, Apollo said: have replaced my Ayre M-R Twenty by Apollon PNC1200 monoblocks Interesting, I'm considering the PET950 monoblocks to replace my VX-5 Twenty. Main System: [Synology DS216, Rpi-4b LMS (pCP)], Holo Audio Red, Ayre QX-5 Twenty, Ayre KX-5 Twenty, Ayre VX-5 Twenty, Revel Ultima Studio2, Iconoclast speaker cables & interconnects, RealTraps acoustic treatments Living Room: Sonore ultraRendu, Ayre QB-9DSD, Simaudio MOON 340iX, B&W 802 Diamond Link to comment
Jud Posted August 24, 2022 Share Posted August 24, 2022 See here: One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
jparvio Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 I'm curious; why do people change their gear from the likes of Ayre etc. to class-D amps? As I have come to expect the need for power does not explain the half of it. Nor the gain (if any) in sound quality. Jussi Arvio Contributing Editor Hifimaailma Magazine Link to comment
Jud Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 1 hour ago, jparvio said: I'm curious; why do people change their gear from the likes of Ayre etc. to class-D amps? As I have come to expect the need for power does not explain the half of it. Nor the gain (if any) in sound quality. Why wouldn't one want to gain sound quality? I listened to music that sounded wonderful through a system with a Class D amp, so that was certainly part of my thinking. I also felt perhaps the state of the art might have moved along in 30 years. As it happened, I thought the sound quality comparison between the new Class D amp and my old Spectral would be a lot closer than it (subjectively) was, so I am very pleasantly surprised. mikicasellas 1 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
jparvio Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 42 minutes ago, Jud said: Why wouldn't one want to gain sound quality? I listened to music that sounded wonderful through a system with a Class D amp, so that was certainly part of my thinking. I also felt perhaps the state of the art might have moved along in 30 years. As it happened, I thought the sound quality comparison between the new Class D amp and my old Spectral would be a lot closer than it (subjectively) was, so I am very pleasantly surprised. In Your case the gain seems obvious. But class A-amps of Today are also different animals from the 30 Years old amps as well; better components etc. So at the end of the day, does the class D-topology outperform class A, when both are done correctly and of Today's knowhow? I am not mentioning price for a reason. Jussi Arvio Contributing Editor Hifimaailma Magazine Link to comment
Popular Post Jud Posted September 5, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted September 5, 2022 5 minutes ago, jparvio said: In Your case the gain seems obvious. But class A-amps of Today are also different animals from the 30 Years old amps as well; better components etc. So at the end of the day, does the class D-topology outperform class A, when both are done correctly and of Today's knowhow? I am not mentioning price for a reason. The other question is "Outperform in what aspects, and can one even hear it?" One further consideration for at least some of us is that Class D amps are less power hungry. Nice to know one's energy demands are lowered a bit, however slightly. PYP and jparvio 2 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
davide256 Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 25 minutes ago, Jud said: The other question is "Outperform in what aspects, and can one even hear it?" One further consideration for at least some of us is that Class D amps are less power hungry. Nice to know one's energy demands are lowered a bit, however slightly. Lets be brutally honest... large wattage tube amps and class A amps are space heaters. And class D amps are rapidly evolving, unlike much older class A and tube tech. I fully expect to sell the class D amp I have in 2 years for a next generation product thats far better than the current designs. And at a price thats reasonable versus "yacht class" purchase price jparvio 1 Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
Axiom05 Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 For me, I'm tired of the heat and weight of "traditional" amps. Reviews of the Mola Mola Kaluga (NCore) amps, along with recent Purifi-based amps have been excellent. I think we're at the point where people no longer need to add the caveat "...for a class D amp." It seems that large amounts of negative feedback, correctly applied, is nothing to be feared and does result in very low distortion. The current offerings of class D amps may actually be much more neutral than other amps provided you use a neutral sounding op-amp in the input buffer. I have not had an opportunity to actual hear one of these amps but I am certainly intrigued. PYP 1 Main System: [Synology DS216, Rpi-4b LMS (pCP)], Holo Audio Red, Ayre QX-5 Twenty, Ayre KX-5 Twenty, Ayre VX-5 Twenty, Revel Ultima Studio2, Iconoclast speaker cables & interconnects, RealTraps acoustic treatments Living Room: Sonore ultraRendu, Ayre QB-9DSD, Simaudio MOON 340iX, B&W 802 Diamond Link to comment
firedog Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 The better class D amps sound great and lots of excellent implementations are available in the $1000-$3500 range. Doubtful many of those who criticize them have actually heard them, or wouldn't like them in unsighted listening. Those who like highly colored sound from their amps (and that's fine if they do) obviously wouldn't want one. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
PeterG Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 6 hours ago, Axiom05 said: I think we're at the point where people no longer need to add the caveat "...for a class D amp." Really? I have not been paying close attention, but I don't think I've ever seen a Class D amp with a review that would suggest it's comparable to the gear in your signature line. The Class D kudos I see are almost always coupled with some sort of reverse snobbery about price or chip on the shoulder shade toward others Link to comment
firedog Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 On 9/6/2022 at 3:35 AM, PeterG said: Really? I have not been paying close attention, but I don't think I've ever seen a Class D amp with a review that would suggest it's comparable to the gear in your signature line. The Class D kudos I see are almost always coupled with some sort of reverse snobbery about price or chip on the shoulder shade toward others You aren't up to date. Read recent reviews. Several saying various class D amps are "the best I've heard" or "among the best I've heard". Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
PYP Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 On 9/5/2022 at 5:35 PM, PeterG said: Really? I have not been paying close attention, but I don't think I've ever seen a Class D amp with a review that would suggest it's comparable to the gear in your signature line. The Class D kudos I see are almost always coupled with some sort of reverse snobbery about price or chip on the shoulder shade toward others "Best" is in the ear of the listener. To my ears, the Kalugas are very musical and allow me to get pulled into the music. That is really all I ask for from audio gear (although, admittedly, I do like the energy-efficient and small form-factor aesthetic). Bruno Putzeys has mentioned that he often meets owners of his amps who previously had tubed gear. I find it very interesting that the designer of Atma-Sphere amps now has a digital offering (his own design) that he thinks is his best to date. Grimm Audio MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui > Mola Mola Kaluga > B&W 803 D3 Cables: Kubala-Sosna Power management: Shunyata Room: Vicoustics “Nature is pleased with simplicity.” Isaac Newton "As neither the enjoyment nor the capacity of producing musical notes are faculties of the least use to man...they must be ranked among the most mysterious with which he is endowed." Charles Darwin - The Descent of Man Link to comment
PeterG Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 On 9/6/2022 at 12:25 AM, firedog said: You aren't up to date. Read recent reviews. Several saying various class D amps are "the best I've heard" or "among the best I've heard". Please share a link or two of your favorite Class D Link to comment
firedog Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 10 hours ago, PeterG said: Please share a link or two of your favorite Class D Try Google. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Norton Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 I had the opportunity to try out a couple of different stereo Hypex power amps in my system for a few weeks- this was a couple of years ago but I think still current models inc. one NC500 based. In some ways they sounded appealing in a big “in command” kind of way, perhaps inevitable in that they were vastly more powerful than my regular 23w SS power amp, but I thought the vertical imaging in particular was very compressed compared to the open, expansive sound from my regular amp, like someone was sitting on the music. I realised that I just wouldn’t use them in preference to my 20yr old DNM, so they were returned. I was also worried about future support once warranty expired and if the modules also went out of production, as by my understanding they may not be serviceable in the way that “conventional” amps are. Link to comment
Popular Post Jud Posted September 7, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted September 7, 2022 I think this from a Soundstage Hi-Fi review might answer your question (note, Eigentakt is Purifi's template/demo version of its Class D amp): "I began evaluating the Eigentakt when I used it in May to review the Magico A1 minimonitors ($7400/pair). Before hooking up the Eigentakt, I’d been using a pair of Constellation Audio Revelation Taurus monoblocks -- massive amps that cost $40,000/pair, are specified to each output up to 500W into 8 ohms or 1000W into 4 ohms, and sound outstanding. The Eigentakt clearly wouldn’t be able to match that kind of power, but the Magico A1s don’t need it -- and don’t want it, unless you want to blow them up. "I also swapped out the Nirvana S-L speaker cables I use with the Constellations for the Neutrik speakON cables supplied by Purifi. Feeding the Eigentakt were an EMM Labs DA2 Reference DAC and Pre preamplifier, both via Crystal Cable Standard Diamond Balanced interconnects. My music server was an Asus ZenBook UX303U laptop computer, connected to the DAC with an AmazonBasics USB link. "I found that the Eigentakt was not only powerful enough to drive the A1s -- it sounded as good as the Constellations. As I wrote in my review, 'almost nothing about the A1s’ sound had changed -- the tonal balance was the same, the highs were just as extended and the midrange just as pure, voices were equally robust, bass just as extended, and the soundstaging and imaging were exactly as before.' What’s more, I also thought that if there were any differences in the sounds, they 'were at best slight and, surprisingly, favored the Purifi.'” TimF, Rt66indierock and PYP 1 1 1 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
PYP Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 The T&A A 200 power amplifier uses the Purifi Eigentakt modules. They use their own power supply. I don't think it would be considered cheap by most folks however. https://www.ta-hifi.de/en/audiosystems/series-200/a-200-power-amplifier/?doing_wp_cron=1662587685.6512451171875000000000 "In our search to achieve the optimum blend of sound quality, power and efficiency, we have developed a completely new circuit topology which combines T+A’s unique HV and High-Frequency sine-wave mains power supply technology with that of the PURIFI Eigentakt™ output stages. By this means we have succeeded in converting raw power into unsurpassed audiophile performance. All circuits and circuit boards are designed and executed by our own development team, and the PURIFI modules implemented within them. The damping factor of the A 200 can be reduced if a warmer or softer sound image is desired in combination with particular loudspeakers." Grimm Audio MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui > Mola Mola Kaluga > B&W 803 D3 Cables: Kubala-Sosna Power management: Shunyata Room: Vicoustics “Nature is pleased with simplicity.” Isaac Newton "As neither the enjoyment nor the capacity of producing musical notes are faculties of the least use to man...they must be ranked among the most mysterious with which he is endowed." Charles Darwin - The Descent of Man Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted September 7, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted September 7, 2022 2 hours ago, Jud said: I think this from a Soundstage Hi-Fi review might answer your question (note, Eigentakt is Purifi's template/demo version of its Class D amp): "I began evaluating the Eigentakt when I used it in May to review the Magico A1 minimonitors ($7400/pair). Before hooking up the Eigentakt, I’d been using a pair of Constellation Audio Revelation Taurus monoblocks -- massive amps that cost $40,000/pair, are specified to each output up to 500W into 8 ohms or 1000W into 4 ohms, and sound outstanding. The Eigentakt clearly wouldn’t be able to match that kind of power, but the Magico A1s don’t need it -- and don’t want it, unless you want to blow them up. "I also swapped out the Nirvana S-L speaker cables I use with the Constellations for the Neutrik speakON cables supplied by Purifi. Feeding the Eigentakt were an EMM Labs DA2 Reference DAC and Pre preamplifier, both via Crystal Cable Standard Diamond Balanced interconnects. My music server was an Asus ZenBook UX303U laptop computer, connected to the DAC with an AmazonBasics USB link. "I found that the Eigentakt was not only powerful enough to drive the A1s -- it sounded as good as the Constellations. As I wrote in my review, 'almost nothing about the A1s’ sound had changed -- the tonal balance was the same, the highs were just as extended and the midrange just as pure, voices were equally robust, bass just as extended, and the soundstaging and imaging were exactly as before.' What’s more, I also thought that if there were any differences in the sounds, they 'were at best slight and, surprisingly, favored the Purifi.'” Interesting. I once had a manufacturer of class D amps over at my house. He was so sure his amp would be better than my Constellation monos that he asked me to do a shootout. I’d already done this before he arrived, so I knew the outcome before the “match” started. After 30 seconds of two songs, his tail was between his legs and he wished he didn’t know now what he didn’t know then (Bob Seger reference). I’d love to try Eigentakt based amps. They could potentially, finally match the hype that class D has received forever. Exocer and Jud 2 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Jud Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 8 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Interesting. I once had a manufacturer of class D amps over at my house. He was so sure his amp would be better than my Constellation monos that he asked me to do a shootout. I’d already done this before he arrived, so I knew the outcome before the “match” started. After 30 seconds of two songs, his tail was between his legs and he wished he didn’t know now what he didn’t know then (Bob Seger reference). I’d love to try Eigentakt based amps. They could potentially, finally match the hype that class D has received forever. Yeah, I personally wonder about the Constellation comparison. People can easily let their enthusiasm run away with them. I have great admiration for Demian Martin as a designer. (Bruno Putzeys as well.) I posted the quote because the question was about why people with expensive amps might be switching to much less expensive Class D, and here was an example of someone who felt he preferred the inexpensive Class D in his system. And yes, a shootout with a higher end (but still much less expensive than the Constellation) product from one of the builders of Purifi-based amps would be very interesting. (Apollon makes lovely multichannel amps, I hear. 😉) The Computer Audiophile 1 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
PYP Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 38 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I’d love to try Eigentakt based amps. They could potentially, finally match the hype that class D has received forever. Maybe the T&A A200? Just as reference point in the progress of Class D. Or NAD M23? My own experience with the Hypex-based amps (DIY, then NAD, then Mola Mola) was an ears-on lesson in how implementation affects the overall sound (true in general, of course). The Hypex was first generation Bruno. The descriptions of his Eigentakt highlight their load-invariant quality. Perhaps they can better handle your beautiful, large electroacoustic transducers. Grimm Audio MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui > Mola Mola Kaluga > B&W 803 D3 Cables: Kubala-Sosna Power management: Shunyata Room: Vicoustics “Nature is pleased with simplicity.” Isaac Newton "As neither the enjoyment nor the capacity of producing musical notes are faculties of the least use to man...they must be ranked among the most mysterious with which he is endowed." Charles Darwin - The Descent of Man Link to comment
Mike Rubin Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 I have asked this before, but haven't heard anything more on this specific topic for awhile. I have been a Class D owner for years. My current amp is an original generation Wyred 4 Sound STI-500 that is based on the B&O ICE modules that, I gather, haven't been updated for quite awhile. There is nothing wrong with it and it meets my preference for an integrated form factor, no internal DAC or streamer (because I need to know that I can continue to play Native DSD), at least one balanced input set, and multiple RCA inputs for phono and the Chromecast Audio that is my backup digital source when my steamer setup is behaving dickishly. I would like to consider upgrading to more current tech, especially given the raves I see in current reviews of Class D amplification. Unfortunately, I mostly have seen the current Class D modules offered in power amps. Have any of you seen them appear in integrateds similar to the W4S? I know that NAD offers some but that company's DAC inputs don't support Native DSD playback and I don't want to pay for a DAC that I will bypass with an external DAC connected via balanced outputs. (My Okto only has balanced outputs.). Technics also has a $10k amp that I understand to be Class D but I really would like to stay both less expensive and physically massive. Am I looking for a unicorn? Living room: Synology 218+ NAS > NUC 10 i7 > HQP Embedded > xfinity Xfi Router > Netgear GS348 Switch > Sonore Optical Module Deluxe > Sonore Signature Rendu SE Optical Tier 2 > Okto DAC 8 Stereo > Topping Pre90 Preamp > Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini > Revel F32 Concertas Computer Desk System: Synology DS-218+ NAS > Dell XPS 8930/NUC 10 i7 > HQP Desktop > xfinity Xfi Router > EtherRegen > ultraRendu > Topping D90 DAC > Audioengine A5+'s Link to comment
ericuco Posted September 20, 2022 Share Posted September 20, 2022 43 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said: I have asked this before, but haven't heard anything more on this specific topic for awhile. I have been a Class D owner for years. My current amp is an original generation Wyred 4 Sound STI-500 that is based on the B&O ICE modules that, I gather, haven't been updated for quite awhile. There is nothing wrong with it and it meets my preference for an integrated form factor, no internal DAC or streamer (because I need to know that I can continue to play Native DSD), at least one balanced input set, and multiple RCA inputs for phono and the Chromecast Audio that is my backup digital source when my steamer setup is behaving dickishly. I would like to consider upgrading to more current tech, especially given the raves I see in current reviews of Class D amplification. Unfortunately, I mostly have seen the current Class D modules offered in power amps. Have any of you seen them appear in integrateds similar to the W4S? I know that NAD offers some but that company's DAC inputs don't support Native DSD playback and I don't want to pay for a DAC that I will bypass with an external DAC connected via balanced outputs. (My Okto only has balanced outputs.). Technics also has a $10k amp that I understand to be Class D but I really would like to stay both less expensive and physically massive. Am I looking for a unicorn? There are several companies that have incorporated the Hypex and Purifi class D modules into a number of different configurations (e.g., mono blocks, integrated, multi-channel). Nord and Apollon are two well known companies. I had a pair of Nord mono blocks based on the Hypex NC500 modules for years and happy with. Purifi modules gets really good reviews here on AS. Both Hypex and Purifi modules were designed by Bruno Putzey(?) who also did work for Mola Mola. On the higher end, Rogue Audio has the Dragon and Sphinx hybrid amps. Atma Sphere just released a Class D amp. Lot of options and price points. Eric Audio System Link to comment
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