Affordable DAC That Doesn't Resample High Rate DSD?

[Jud]

42 minutes ago, copy_of_a said:

Since when? Former versions of A+ provided to select software only volume control. Later versions unfortunately undithered - but if you upsample to DSD anyway the noise shaping is of course included in the DSD modulator.

 

Though it's there in the UI, I recall reading it does not work with UPnP/DLNA. That solved a mystery, because I had tried it, and though the UI changed it had no effect on actual loudness.

[copy_of_a]

2 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Though it's there in the UI, I recall reading it does not work with UPnP/DLNA. That solved a mystery, because I had tried it, and though the UI changed it had no effect on actual loudness.

Ah, okay, I see! Wasn't aware of this.

Too, it probably doesn't work when upsampling to DSD!?

I've dropped A+ 2 years ago or so - remebrance is getting weaker ;-)

[Miska]

15 hours ago, Jud said:

Also: iFi Pro iDSD signature - Price over $3200, and it has tubes.  Those are a non-starter for me, because I can tell you for certain that the day we decide to have a bunch of friends over is the day one of those tubes will burn out.

 

Pretty much any iFi DAC that has TI/BB chip and supports DSD.

 

Two newer ones I have are NEO iDSD and xDSD Gryphon.

 

 

[Miska]

15 hours ago, firedog said:

More on topic: You are pretty much looking for an AKM DAC at your price level. ESS DACs don't do what you want, and other (non chip based) technologies that do what you want are going to be out of your price range.

 

Or anything with TI/BB DAC chip, iFi is biggest user of these.

 

But for discrete implementations, of course devices like T+A DAC 200. It has resistor ladder analog volume control.

 

[Jud]

25 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Pretty much any iFi DAC that has TI/BB chip and supports DSD.

 

Two newer ones I have are NEO iDSD and xDSD Gryphon.

 

 

 

Hi Miska, thank you. How do the measurements look for these, if you've had a chance to do that?

[Miska]

4 minutes ago, Jud said:

Hi Miska, thank you. How do the measurements look for these, if you've had a chance to do that?

 

DAC 200 is more expensive, but also measures better, as one would expect.

 

I've only measured with my modulators. So if you intend to use something else, YMMV.

 

[dericchan1]

17 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

DAC 200 is more expensive, but also measures better, as one would expect.

 

I've only measured with my modulators. So if you intend to use something else, YMMV.

 

Hi Miska, I am also interested to see how my ifi neo idsd measures with your modulators. Would you mind posting something for us interested? Would dsd256 measure better than dsd512?

 

I mean it sounds pretty decent subjectively to my ears using dsd 44.1x256 with 7ECV2.

Thanks 

 

Deric

[Miska]

19 minutes ago, dericchan1 said:

I mean it sounds pretty decent subjectively to my ears using dsd 44.1x256 with 7ECV2.

 

Yes, I'm using it with my iMac for testing Intel silicon Mac versions. I even use it in undocumented (?) way with just USB3 power, without external PSU, it actually works decently that way.

 

DSD256 is it's sweet spot and any THD is practically only second order, so the least disturbing type.

 

[dericchan1]

9 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Yes, I'm using it with my iMac for testing Intel silicon Mac versions. I even use it in undocumented (?) way with just USB3 power, without external PSU, it actually works decently that way.

 

DSD256 is it's sweet spot and any THD is practically only second order, so the least disturbing type.

 

Thanks Miska, saves me $2k for a PC upgrade to get to DSD512!!!  Cheers

 

Deric

[Miska]

9 minutes ago, dericchan1 said:

Thanks Miska, saves me $2k for a PC upgrade to get to DSD512!!!  Cheers

 

My cheapest machine running doing DSD512 with ASDM7ECv2 is i5-11600 (non-K!), at 65W TDP. It can barely do it, but it can! And it doesn't cost $2k. But the nice thing is that you can do DSD256 using EC modulators with a lot of different kind of hardware, even my old totally passive cooled i5-7600T (35W TDP) server.

 

[dericchan1]

3 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

My cheapest machine running doing DSD512 with ASDM7ECv2 is i5-11600 (non-K!), at 65W TDP. It can barely do it, but it can! And it doesn't cost $2k. But the nice thing is that you can do DSD256 using EC modulators with a lot of different kind of hardware, even my old totally passive cooled i5-7600T (35W TDP) server.

 

Thanks Miska but I guess there’s not much of a point to go with dsd512 if dsd256 is the “sweet spot”? 

[Miska]

3 minutes ago, dericchan1 said:

Thanks Miska but I guess there’s not much of a point to go with dsd512 if dsd256 is the “sweet spot”? 

 

You lose about 3 dB in THD, but gain lower ultrasonic noise left-over. The difference is so small that you could prefer it one way or the other depending on system.

 

[One and a half]

@Jud, owning the Geshelli Labs really simple DAC, only Coax input, works quite well with a 12V LPS of some quality.

Their new DAC has a USB Option and XLR outputs. Can choose between three DAC chips. The price is modest, so not much of a risk.

[Jud]

7 hours ago, One and a half said:

@Jud, owning the Geshelli Labs really simple DAC, only Coax input, works quite well with a 12V LPS of some quality.

Their new DAC has a USB Option and XLR outputs. Can choose between three DAC chips. The price is modest, so not much of a risk.

 

Thanks, it looks like a very nice and very affordable DAC.

 

But let me reiterate that I'm really after something with an onboard preamp, and mention the calculation that went into the decision: I still have, and intend to keep, my very fine Spectral preamp.  But when I got my new amp (see below) I tried out my current DAC direct into the old amp first, and found I much preferred the DAC directly connected.  For whatever reason, it sounds better to me coming from the DAC's preamp versus first the DAC and then the Spectral.  (Yes, when I had the DAC running through the Spectral preamp I turned the DAC volume all the way up to take its preamp out of the circuit.)  I'm not willing to give up what I feel is a sonic improvement and go back to running my DAC through my Spectral preamp instead of direct.

 

[Apollo]

Maybe above your budget and not new: the T+A 8 DSD dac.
With the arrival of the new T+A 200 dac, the 8 DSD dac  becomes available on secondhand market for more affordable prices.
In Europe,there are offeringss for 1500€ right now.

[firedog]

@Judd

tried for a couple of days to send this in a PM, you apparently didn't see it:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=182925.msg1921229;topicseen#new

 

RME AKM DAC used for sale.

[Jud]

9 hours ago, firedog said:

@Judd

tried for a couple of days to send this in a PM, you apparently didn't see it:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=182925.msg1921229;topicseen#new

 

RME AKM DAC used for sale.

 

Thanks, for whatever reason I didn't receive it. (Don't know if this has anything to do with it, but I spell Jud with only one "d." Yep, I've just gotta be different.)

 

The RME is undoubtedly a fine DAC. It does DoP though, which means I'd be limited to DSD256 with my computer. I like to do DSD512 now and then and would like to continue to have that choice.

[Currawong]

I'm surprised nobody suggested Audio-gd. Their R2R DACs have dedicated DSD ladders. Higher DSD rates I think are limited to I2S or USB input though. 

 

That being said, I'm not really sure that putting DSD512 through a DAC gives you any benefit over DSD256, or even DSD128. For example, I was talking to a manufacturer of a streamer who, when asked why his streamer was limited to DSD128, he said that higher rates performed worse.

[musicjunkie917]

@Miska suggests, I believe, that DSD256 is better than DSD128 and that are pluses and minuses when going to DSD512 or beyond. I could bewaring which is why I have tagged Jussi....

[Miska]

DSD256 is pretty much systematically better than DSD128. DSD64 is pretty bad for putting through any D/A conversion without upsampling first.

 

How good DSD512 is compared to DSD256 depends on the DAC and overall system, many times it is a balance thing where you choose between different aspects of performance.

 

[Miska]

5 hours ago, Currawong said:

I'm surprised nobody suggested Audio-gd. Their R2R DACs have dedicated DSD ladders. Higher DSD rates I think are limited to I2S or USB input though.

 

Do you have any specific model in mind? By quick glance didn't look very promising with 0.1% THD spec.

 

5 hours ago, Currawong said:

For example, I was talking to a manufacturer of a streamer who, when asked why his streamer was limited to DSD128, he said that higher rates performed worse.

 

Performed worse on what kind of DAC?

 

[copy_of_a]

3 hours ago, Miska said:

DSD64 is pretty bad for putting through any D/A conversion without upsampling first.

Sorry for going off topic for a moment ...

But, Miska, why do you think DSD64 is bad? In fully understand that DSD256 and higher eliminates the need of a reconstruction filter. In fact with my latest DAC I prefer DSD256. But especially with HQPlayer the noise level of the modualtor at DSD64 is way below 60db (with ASDM7/EC - with ASDM5/EC it's even below 70db - if I am not mistaken?) so that even with a wide and relaxed reconstruction filter DSD64 actually sounds really nice (at least for me). Now, with my former DACs I actually prefered DSD64 over higher rates; first with my latest DAC I prefer DSD256.

[semente]

Hi Jud, to the best of my knowledge the RME will not work as preamp if used in DSD-direct mode.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, semente said:

Hi Jud, to the best of my knowledge the RME will not work as preamp if used in DSD-direct mode.

 

Yes, thanks, now I remember reading that before.

[firedog]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

Yes, thanks, now I remember reading that before.

True. If it was me, I'd see if a T+A comes onto the used market for a not outrageous price. But even that may be above what you want to pay.