VPN Affects Sound.

[Liam]

I find that there is a difference in sound when streaming (Qobuz) depending on whether I use NordVPN or not.  Has anyone experienced this and can offer an explanation?

[ASRMichael]

If using router configured with Nord VPN then I would imagine it’s the additional noise being generated from additional processing on the router. I know my Ubiquiti cpu goes much higher when using VPN! Other than that no idea! 

[Liam]

11 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

If using router configured with Nord VPN then I would imagine it’s the additional noise being generated from additional processing on the router. I know my Ubiquiti cpu goes much higher when using VPN! Other than that no idea! 

Thanks for the input.  No NordVPN not set up on router, just installed on an iPad Pro and an iPhone SE.  I also use an old iPad 2 as a controller, but NordVPN is not compatible with it.  In fact that is what eventually led me to identify why the difference myself and my wife can hear when the VPN is in use or not.  The iPad Pro and iPhone SE sound the same as iPad 2 when VPN is switched out.

 

Actually, the opposite to what I infer from your comments is that with the VPN the sound seems cleaner as a result of darker background (less noise?), more perceived resolution and a better sense of rhythm.  General question, is it at all possible that encryption/decryption reduces noise?

 

For consistency the system I am referring to in these posts is the Living Room one, though I am virtually positive I detected the same in the Sitting Room system, though yet to be confirmed.

[ASRMichael]

Interesting!…..I’ll give it a try when I get a minute 

[kumakuma]

Are you using NordVPN to change your location to a different country than where you are located?

[Liam]

8 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

Are you using NordVPN to change your location to a different country than where you are located?

No it’s switching between going directly to my ISP and using the VPN set to my country. 

[kumakuma]

4 minutes ago, Liam said:

No it’s switching between going directly to my ISP and using the VPN set to my country. 

 

Sorry, I got nothing...

[Liam]

1 hour ago, kumakuma said:

 

Sorry, I got nothing...

No difference for you?

[kumakuma]

2 minutes ago, Liam said:

No difference for you?

 

No immediate difference here

[Liam]

Thanks for checking. 

[cjf]

IME...ETH Latency goes thru the roof once connected to any Hosted VPN provider as does bandwidth availability. You may have a 100mb (for example) Internet connection from your ISP but once you connect to the VPN I bet the download speed falls quite far. You could do an Internet Speed test on the VPN and not on the VPN to confirm this though. Maybe you have a VPN that doesn't fall into this category though.

 

Either of the above issues or both would def effect SQ when streaming.

 

Just a point of mention, my ISP offers a 100mb download speed which use to be enough for streaming but for some reason as of about 6-8mo ago I am no longer able to stream anything from QoBuz via Roon above 24/96 without drop outs. I can't imagine how unusable it would be while doing the whole affair thru a Hosted VPN connection in my case.

[Liam]

7 hours ago, cjf said:

IME...ETH Latency goes thru the roof once connected to any Hosted VPN provider as does bandwidth availability. You may have a 100mb (for example) Internet connection from your ISP but once you connect to the VPN I bet the download speed falls quite far. You could do an Internet Speed test on the VPN and not on the VPN to confirm this though. Maybe you have a VPN that doesn't fall into this category though.

 

Either of the above issues or both would def effect SQ when streaming.

 

Just a point of mention, my ISP offers a 100mb download speed which use to be enough for streaming but for some reason as of about 6-8mo ago I am no longer able to stream anything from QoBuz via Roon above 24/96 without drop outs. I can't imagine how unusable it would be while doing the whole affair thru a Hosted VPN connection in my case.

Thanks for your input. By the way I had a look at your system. It’s really great. 
 

Well here we have 66mb and it reduces to 63mb with NordVPN.  There are no drop outs at all. I will say that my dac gives only silence above 24/96, although it is being offered 24/192 at the input. That’s another issue.

 

When I posted initially I had not checked the main system for the affect. Just now I did and I perceive the same. With NordVPN engaged and NordLynx protocol selected it’s like a blanket is lifted. Overall the sound is more open and soundstage inner space is more clearly accessible. NordLynx protocol selection was the key to this affect when last I checked. The other protocols not so much, if at all, as I recollect last time I toggled through them. NordLynx has much less lines of code I understand. 

[DuckToller]

Another Nord VPN user here:

I have two PC's at the same switch, one i74790 which is the music server, and a recent workhose I3 10400, both having Intel Gigabit interfaces into the switch (Netgear 108T). The Switch is connected via 5Hghz wifi to the fiber modem.
I can see performance loss for uploads when I use other destinations than the home destination for the VPN (i.E. Germany). and a slight loss towards the UK.
Here is data from speedtest by cloudflare, Home location is France.

I7 Music Server              Down        UP          JITTER        PING

Nord VPN France            58.4         55.5         2.57            12.6

Nord VPN Germany        60,5         56.8         3.08            9.95
Nord VPN UK                  32.3         28.2         1.9              18.9

No VPN                           59.3         53.1         1.1               9.2

 

I3 Workhorse                Down         UP          JITTER        PING

Nord VPN France            313          106          5.58          11

Nord VPN Germany        328          51.6         2.16           20
Nord VPN UK                  272          58.1         2.26           18

No VPN                           368          98.2         2.26           10

Imho, the GigE interface / Processor in use may have a more significant impact than Nord VPN or no VPN.
cheers, tom

 

 

 

[botrytis]

Careful with any VPN, as they are not as secure as you think they are. Most have flaws that can be exploited.

[Liam]

1 hour ago, DuckToller said:

Another Nord VPN user here:

I have two PC's at the same switch, one i74790 which is the music server, and a recent workhose I3 10400, both having Intel Gigabit interfaces into the switch (Netgear 108T). The Switch is connected via 5Hghz wifi to the fiber modem.
I can see performance loss for uploads when I use other destinations than the home destination for the VPN (i.E. Germany). and a slight loss towards the UK.
Here is data from speedtest by cloudflare, Home location is France.

I7 Music Server              Down        UP          JITTER        PING

Nord VPN France            58.4         55.5         2.57            12.6

Nord VPN Germany        60,5         56.8         3.08            9.95
Nord VPN UK                  32.3         28.2         1.9              18.9

No VPN                           59.3         53.1         1.1               9.2

 

I3 Workhorse                Down         UP          JITTER        PING

Nord VPN France            313          106          5.58          11

Nord VPN Germany        328          51.6         2.16           20
Nord VPN UK                  272          58.1         2.26           18

No VPN                           368          98.2         2.26           10

Imho, the GigE interface / Processor in use may have a more significant impact than Nord VPN or no VPN.
cheers, tom

 

 

 

Thanks for all the information Tom.  Below some figures from me.  All done directly from my home server in Ireland and also using NordVPN with NordLynx protocol through a NordVPN server in Ireland.  On that basis I did a few tests for consistency using Fusion Connect for the tests.  No significant variation between them.

 

It would be interesting if you selected NordLynx as the protocol and compared it to no VPN ie 'trusted network' and check if you can detect a difference in sound between them.  Liam.

 

Fusion Connect with NordLynx.

                    Down             Up            Ping          Jitter

Nord Lynx  63.1               17.6              9                1

                   63.1               17.6             11                0

                   63.5              17.6             10                1

No VPN.     66.5             18.5               8                1

                   66.6             18.4               8                1

                   65.7             18.5.              9                0

 

                                           

 

 

[cjf]

14 hours ago, Liam said:

Thanks for your input. By the way I had a look at your system. It’s really great. 
 

Well here we have 66mb and it reduces to 63mb with NordVPN.  There are no drop outs at all. I will say that my dac gives only silence above 24/96, although it is being offered 24/192 at the input. That’s another issue.

 

When I posted initially I had not checked the main system for the affect. Just now I did and I perceive the same. With NordVPN engaged and NordLynx protocol selected it’s like a blanket is lifted. Overall the sound is more open and soundstage inner space is more clearly accessible. NordLynx protocol selection was the key to this affect when last I checked. The other protocols not so much, if at all, as I recollect last time I toggled through them. NordLynx has much less lines of code I understand. 

Thanks for the kind words

 

Well its good to see the speed/latency hit while using Nord VPN is a non issue. I tried a few VPN services in the past (maybe 4yrs ago) and at the time the performance hit was very bad which is why I figured I would mention it just in case you were suffering from the same problem.

 

As an off topic yet important side bar, as @botrytis mentions,  yes VPN's can give a false sense of security. Especially if not configured to account for things like DNS leaks that can find their way around the VPN tunnel if not done right.

 

Some folks implement a "Kill Switch" to account for the VPN tunnel going down without you knowing it. The Kill Switch will stop the flow of Internet traffic making it very obvious that something has gone sideways with the tunnel. Certain routers have one baked in. Other folks use encrypted DNS in combination with a VPN to make it more difficult for prying eyes to see the leaked DNS queries. I could go on but I think the point is made already.

 

You can get pretty creative with Linux IP Tables to handle all that if you feel its needed. Its quite powerful.

 

Then you have the whole trust thing. VPN Company A says they don't keep records or VPN Company B says they only keep records for a short period of time. There have been Audits in the past of some of these companies that show otherwise. When threatened with multi-million dollar fines I don't doubt they will sing like a canary and turn over everything they say they don't keep 😑