What's the best NAS for a music library

[debt_collector]

I currently have the synology DS415+ upstaires connected via cat6 cable to an Ether Regen swith downstairs and that connected to the sotm sms200 that steams to my dac.

 

What better NAS drives are out there for my use? For example, would a NAS with optical fiber output which allows me to use fiber cable connecting it to my Ether Regen switch imrove sq?

[cjf]

On 7/26/2022 at 10:32 AM, debt_collector said:

I currently have the synology DS415+ upstaires connected via cat6 cable to an Ether Regen swith downstairs and that connected to the sotm sms200 that steams to my dac.

 

What better NAS drives are out there for my use? For example, would a NAS with optical fiber output which allows me to use fiber cable connecting it to my Ether Regen switch imrove sq?

I use one of these. Its pretty stellar. Mine has 32gb of RAM and bog standard Western Digital 7200rpm "Red" drives. Its the best unit I could find without going full on enterprise class stuff.

 

https://www.truenas.com/truenas-mini

 

[davide256]

On 7/26/2022 at 12:32 PM, debt_collector said:

I currently have the synology DS415+ upstaires connected via cat6 cable to an Ether Regen swith downstairs and that connected to the sotm sms200 that steams to my dac.

 

What better NAS drives are out there for my use? For example, would a NAS with optical fiber output which allows me to use fiber cable connecting it to my Ether Regen switch imrove sq?

The latest WD Red Plus drives do have better performance than the stock WD Red. Which was helpful when I moved from 4 to 12 TB size. Can't say that it mattered for audio

use, just for large scale file operations. The one feature I wish I had was dual Ethernet ports which you already have. If I were to use the optical port on the Etherregen, I'd use

it for my internet uplink, more worried about noise from router than the NAS, many more bells and whistles to generate EMI at the router end than the NAS

[stefano_mbp]

On 7/30/2022 at 3:25 AM, cjf said:

https://www.truenas.com/truenas-mini

I should stay with Qnap (first choice) or Synology.

On truenas, afaik, it isn possible to install mediaservers like Minimserver.

As @debt_collectoris using sMS200 with MPD start using Minimserver could be an interesting step forward to manage his library, MPD, even if functional, is quite … minimalist/essential.

Several fiber channel cards are available for Qnap nas (at least, don’t know if there are for Synology too)

[d_elm]

On 7/26/2022 at 10:32 AM, debt_collector said:

I currently have the synology DS415+ upstaires connected via cat6 cable to an Ether Regen swith downstairs and that connected to the sotm sms200 that steams to my dac.

 

What better NAS drives are out there for my use? For example, would a NAS with optical fiber output which allows me to use fiber cable connecting it to my Ether Regen switch imrove sq?

With an open NAS running Linux (eg your Synology) you can use minimserver for DLNA/UPNP support or run Roon server. I have used both on a QNAP NAS and now am using Roon server.  I added an SSD drive to my QNAP with the USB interface for the Roon database.  I have since replaced the two HDDs with an SSD as my library is small.  The DAC is where the upstream noise either matters or is dealt with. I have a Meitner MA3 streamer/DAC and nothing special upstream from it.

[znorter_1]

This blessed Sound Quality! 😅
ROON's "Nucleus +" is (seems like) at the top for his "Core".

 

But,
if it is true (as it must be true) that the server must be connected via Ethernet to the "modem / router", one of the main ones responsible for entering "noise", a question might be:

 

• -better then leave the streamer/dac NOT connected directly to the server and go to "fish" the files from the network then through its APP in wifi since it is also in the same (Ethernet) network... or:
• - connect the server with the USB/Optical/SPDiF? at the input of the stream/dac?

 

🤔

[stefano_mbp]

@znorter_1 you are provocative ....

@debt_collector said he has a nas and asked which nas drives are best to use and if it would make sense to connect them through fiber optic cable.
Nucleus+ is something else entirely … a Nuc7i7 in fanless case that costs 3/4 times the Nuc itself, and there is the Roon license on top … and sound quality is not the best that can be found, it’s like Audirvāna or JRiver
And …. how would it be possible to connect a server to a streamer via usb / spdif? It does not seem to me that such a solution exists

[znorter_1]

14 hours ago, stefano_mbp said:

you are provocative ....

Sorry, Stefano, just to... talk and sorry debt_collector for OT, if...

Well, maybe I am wrong and Nucleus by Roon is not properly server that have the same connections but, this is what I mean:

And this is another way to do it:
 

[stefano_mbp]

@znorter_1 in the first example there is no external server, hdd are usb connected (or can be internal, ie SATA connected) and you can only rely on the media library capability of your streamer/player.

In the second example, with a nas, you can have an external server running on the nas itself (maybe an UPNP media server like Minimserver or Asset), but not only as you could just define a share in your streamer/player and in this case you’re back to the first example.

Which configuration is best for you depends on several factors. Some examples:

• are your hdd noisy? Go for the second as you can put the nas away in a closet
• Can your streamer/player use a UPNP media server? Go for the second
• You don’t want a nas and your hdd are silent? Go for the first
• are you “worried” about electrical/electronic noise? Go for the second and use fiber optic lan connection
• … etc …

[znorter_1]

On 8/12/2022 at 9:40 AM, stefano_mbp said:

• are your hdd noisy? Go for the second as you can put the nas away in a closet
• Can your streamer/player use a UPNP media server? Go for the second
• You don’t want a nas and your hdd are silent? Go for the first
• are you “worried” about electrical/electronic noise? Go for the second and use fiber optic lan connection
• … etc …

a) no, I don't imagine any "audiophile" who would accept "mechanical noises" in the listening room.
b) I think -today- EVERY streamer/player is full UPNP compatible.
c) NAS, is -should be- a "not perfect component" for a traditionalist audiophile who generally doesn't consider PC / Laptop etc. in fact (waiting for audiophile modem / router like  "Waversa") audio-switches and USB-clocks are on the agenda of the historical HIEND producers.
d) this is interesting, although "fiber optic" (at least unless it is "customized" as an example "Playback Design" does) is not an "acceptable" connection in the HIEND.
e/tc) well, yes, I'm provocative 😉 but "absolute SQ" it demands courage!

[One and a half]

The decision for a NAS for a streamer to source files from, not so keen.

 

- NAS is often ‘slow’ compared to say, Xeon in a diy or ready made small server.

Music files are GB per album, moving these around into a NAS can be painfully slow and tedious. For goodness sake don’t let the drives spin down, the lag kills my patience.

- Cooling for the hard drives has to be top class, drives remain on all the time.

- NAS may not have dual Ethernet Ports, these should be on the list.

- I worry about noise, so have filters and ER in circuit same as the OP on music servers and storage, not a NAS.

- NAS have a lot of software baggage that’s useless for music storage

 

NAS is good for backups or movie storage, for movies good network speed is essential. Still thinking about getting one for backups, the older QNAP419 gave a lasting impression how bad a NAS can be.

[Priaptor]

I have made my switch from Synology to QNAP in my MT home, which uses a very cost-efficient combo of NVME, SSD and 3.5 SATA drives (TVS-h1288X | Intel® Xeon® W desktop QuTS hero NAS, ideal for high-speed media collaboration over Thunderbolt™ 3 and 10GbE virtual machine applications | QNAP (US)

 

For those who want and/or need a fanless solution, QNAP has some very cool new products. QNAP TS-i410X TS-i410X | Wide temperature & fanless 10GbE industrial NAS for harsh environments | QNAP (US) looks like an excellent product which I will likely be using in my new home. They also released a home version of this last week which is almost the same as this one, without the heatsinks and with 2x2.5Gbe instead of the 2x10Gbe TS-410E | Powerful hardware & fanless cooling 2.5GbE professional NAS | QNAP (US). Not sure of the price on that one but the TS-i410x looks like the product for me.

 

For those looking for a more industrial but still quiet product, and commensurately much more money but using the latest U.2/U.3 technology, there is the TS-h1290FX series (TS-h1290FX | Powerful 12-bay U.2 NVMe/ SATA all-flash NAS, featuring ZFS-based storage and 25GbE connectivity, ideal for office environments, collaborative 4K/8K video editing, and file sharing (Supports QuTS hero or QTS system) | QNAP (US) which comes in a 3 different computer/ram configurations but is pretty pricey. I think the diskless prices for these range from 3900 to 8500 USD.

 

Of course, the caveat with the 4-drive system is the size of one's library. Now that we are seeing 8TB SSD, they are also expensive currently, which surprisingly, when you do the math, despite the better tech and higher expense of the TS- h1290FX, the fact that it allows many more drives, one could load up on cheaper U.2 mid-size drives narrowing the gap (not completely) between the choices. 

[Smaragdhk]

I'm replacing my 8T Synlogy DS218Play with an idling quieter QNAP TS253Pro that wasn't being used. It has a nice metal case and dual ethernet ports and better noise mitigation... the Synology has vents and open parts in the plastic housing.

What's the consensus on the latest "quiet" drives? The TS253Pro is by itself much quieter than the DS218Play. I barely hear the drives... or is SSD really the better route here?

 

[Priaptor]

4 hours ago, Smaragdhk said:

I'm replacing my 8T Synlogy DS218Play with an idling quieter QNAP TS253Pro that wasn't being used. It has a nice metal case and dual ethernet ports and better noise mitigation... the Synology has vents and open parts in the plastic housing.

What's the consensus on the latest "quiet" drives? The TS253Pro is by itself much quieter than the DS218Play. I barely hear the drives... or is SSD really the better route here?

 

In my post above, it doesn't get any quieter than the QNAP TS-i410x which is 0db. Superfast as well. 

[Kal Rubinson]

7 hours ago, Smaragdhk said:

What's the consensus on the latest "quiet" drives? The TS253Pro is by itself much quieter than the DS218Play. I barely hear the drives... or is SSD really the better route here?

The solution is to put the NAS in another room and take advantage of it being Network-Attached.  I use bigger and faster NAS boxes but they are all, due to their location, effectively silent.

[Richard Dale]

I’ve got a 4tb usb drive attached directly to my router which runs OpenWRT. I use MiniDLNA to serve music tracks to my KEF LS50W speakers. I could also mount the disk via NFS or SMB to make the music tracks available over the network. A dedicated NAS box isn’t needed.

[Kal Rubinson]

On 12/27/2022 at 5:07 PM, Richard Dale said:

A dedicated NAS box isn’t needed.

For you, perhaps.  The OP now has a 4-bay NAS which affords him a much larger capacity than a single directly-attached drive and suggests that he, like me, needs much more storage than 4tb.  For such larger storage, remote location can be advantageous.

[Smaragdhk]

Thanks all for your input... I bought 2x 4T SSD's, migrated my music and the TS-253Pro is super quiet. I live in Hong Kong and don't have the luxury of putting the NAS in a different room so for me this solution worked out well. Enjoy your music everyone and happy new year! 

[jabbr]

On 12/27/2022 at 5:07 PM, Richard Dale said:

I’ve got a 4tb usb drive attached directly to my router which runs OpenWRT. I use MiniDLNA to serve music tracks to my KEF LS50W speakers. I could also mount the disk via NFS or SMB to make the music tracks available over the network. A dedicated NAS box isn’t needed.

 

A dedicated NAS box is greatly preferable:

 

If you have used large disc drives for a long period of time, you have had failures. Mirroring or RAID is the solution. This is what a NAS accomplishes. USB attached drives are meant for backup.

[Richard Dale]

4 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

A dedicated NAS box is greatly preferable:

 

If you have used large disc drives for a long period of time, you have had failures. Mirroring or RAID is the solution. This is what a NAS accomplishes. USB attached drives are meant for backup.

I don’t see any need for mirroring or RAID unless the music collection is larger than a single USB disk, ie at least 6 tb or so. I’m sure plenty of people on this site might have music collections that are larger than that, but I would be surprised if it was typical for an average audiophile. I have plenty of backups that I make by periodically running rsync or rdiff_backup onto other USB disks. 

[jabbr]

29 minutes ago, Richard Dale said:

I don’t see any need for mirroring or RAID unless the music collection is larger than a single USB disk, ie at least 6 tb or so. I’m sure plenty of people on this site might have music collections that are larger than that, but I would be surprised if it was typical for an average audiophile. I have plenty of backups that I make by periodically running rsync or rdiff_backup onto other USB disks. 

 

Thats nice and I'm sure that works for you. Have you considered that your backups might develop bitrot? Have you encountered bitrot yet? I have drive arrays that I have maintained for 20 years because they self correct/heal due to the ZFS filesystem. Now that ZFS is built into Ubuntu, this is easy to use for everyone. In any case I can assure you that while backups are a good idea, mirroring has its own benefits and given the willingness of audiophiles to drop $kilo on all sorts of PSUs and cables, mirroring is cheap and works great, and anyone who has invested time in building a large music library should do it. YMMV

[stefano_mbp]

6 minutes ago, jabbr said:

mirroring is cheap and works great

Yes it is quite cheap but one thing must be understood:  mirroring or parity control (ie raid5) are not an alternative to backup, they just work fine to assure continuity of service

[Richard Dale]

43 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

Thats nice and I'm sure that works for you. Have you considered that your backups might develop bitrot? Have you encountered bitrot yet? I have drive arrays that I have maintained for 20 years because they self correct/heal due to the ZFS filesystem. Now that ZFS is built into Ubuntu, this is easy to use for everyone. In any case I can assure you that while backups are a good idea, mirroring has its own benefits and given the willingness of audiophiles to drop $kilo on all sorts of PSUs and cables, mirroring is cheap and works great, and anyone who has invested time in building a large music library should do it. YMMV

I have the original CDs that I have ripped, and I always keep the originals that I have bought and downloaded from sites like Qobuz. I also keep my collection in both AIFF and Apple lossless formats, and have multiple backups in multiple sites.
 

I agree the ZFS might be better than ext4 or the Apple file system, but in the context of audio systems with more modest sizes like mine (c. 3300 albums) RAID is just a solution looking for a problem. Modern hard disks have built in error correction and detection at the hardware level, and I am not too worried by bit rot.

[Jud]

Couple of questions regarding ZFS: I had a quick glance at it when rebuilding my system(s) (Windows update went wrong and took out two Linux installations besides; my music wasn't touched because it's on a couple of local external drives I keep synced, plus a remote backup).

 

(1) My quick glance seemed to show ZFS is happiest when taking up (at least) an entire drive.  Is this correct, or can it live on one part of a drive with other OSs/filesystems on the other parts of the drive?

 

(2) I'm running 4 OSs - Win11 (developer beta), Xubuntu, ArcoLinux (based on Arch), and MacOS Ventura (developer beta). If I cared to use ZFS for the two external USB storage drives where I keep my music, would there be problems communicating between those drives and any of these 4 OSs?  (I also wonder whether Backblaze personal backup would have trouble with ZFS, but unless someone here has relevant experience, I'm going to assume Backblaze support is a better place to look for that answer.)

[jabbr]

18 hours ago, Jud said:

Couple of questions regarding ZFS: I had a quick glance at it when rebuilding my system(s) (Windows update went wrong and took out two Linux installations besides; my music wasn't touched because it's on a couple of local external drives I keep synced, plus a remote backup).

 

(1) My quick glance seemed to show ZFS is happiest when taking up (at least) an entire drive.  Is this correct, or can it live on one part of a drive with other OSs/filesystems on the other parts of the drive?

 

(2) I'm running 4 OSs - Win11 (developer beta), Xubuntu, ArcoLinux (based on Arch), and MacOS Ventura (developer beta). If I cared to use ZFS for the two external USB storage drives where I keep my music, would there be problems communicating between those drives and any of these 4 OSs?  (I also wonder whether Backblaze personal backup would have trouble with ZFS, but unless someone here has relevant experience, I'm going to assume Backblaze support is a better place to look for that answer.)

 

Yes give ZFS the entire drive. Drives are cheap, this isn't where you want to save a few bucks.

 

When you want to move the drives to a new host (possibly running a different OS) just:

$ zpool export <pool>

and then

$ zpool import <pool>

 

My drives are on an external SAS3 enclosure which connects to my NAS via a SAS3 cable (the enclosures can be daisey chained). At the very least:

1) get a cheap box which can run Ubuntu server

2) create a pool from a drive large enough to hold your entire library

3) add another drive to that pool to create a mirror

4) use SMB to share the filesystem over the network

(that's a NAS)

 

each of the OS you list can mount a network drive via SMB

 

**Now** if you insist on using ZFS with external USB drives, yes you can and here are instructions:

http://jenpeterson.net/zfs-blog/

that said, each host OS needs to run ZFS/OpenZFS