Complete system at less than 2.5k $ - could you do better ?

[DuckToller]

This system showed up in my timeline today:
- Klipsch RP600M II @ 749$

- Marantz PM7000N @ 1199$

- PRO-JECT T1Phono SB Turntable @449$

Would you think thats legit?

I remember that system with the Magnepan LRS and a VERY  expensive phono-preamp (ear?) a year ago, or two. However, The LRS has a new edition, which may perform better on the ASR testbench than the predecessor.

We have seen the 4k with a phono pre amp here this spring, but could you do better than above?
How do you see the options to create a 2.5k $ system which could be interesting for newbies?
As they often ask here, I've chosen the Q&A section for that topic.
Let the systems fly in ... ;-)
Cheers, Tom

[PeterG]

Definitely legit, and an important topic. 

 

I've heard only one lower end Marantz, and was disappointed compared to similarly priced NAD and Rotel amps.  So I think I'd sub in one of of those

[davide256]

keep the 96 db efficient Klipsch speakers

get rid of the (snore) Marantz  and sub at same price a Decware Zen Triode

trash the Project pre/ phono because thats deceptive... you need a TT + cartridge also which will significantly push you above $2500

sub instead a Blue Sound Node ($599) for streamer with integrated DAC.

A subscription to Tidal or Qobuz will be less than the cost of 1 vinyl album purchase a month.

[DuckToller]

19 hours ago, davide256 said:

keep the 96 db efficient Klipsch speakers

get rid of the (snore) Marantz  and sub at same price a Decware Zen Triode

trash the Project pre/ phono because thats deceptive... you need a TT + cartridge also which will significantly push you above $2500

sub instead a Blue Sound Node ($599) for streamer with integrated DAC.

A subscription to Tidal or Qobuz will be less than the cost of 1 vinyl album purchase a month.

 

21 hours ago, PeterG said:

Definitely legit, and an important topic. 

 

I've heard only one lower end Marantz, and was disappointed compared to similarly priced NAD and Rotel amps.  So I think I'd sub in one of of those

 

Hi Guys, mille merci for your participation.

I haven’t made experience with the Marantz equipment other than looking at their shiny surfaces since I started reading Audio press in the 80s. Rumors had it back then, that they were cheaper versions of the Luxman and Accuphase dream units, not quite the same, but good quality.
At that time, they were already out of my reach by financial means.
Now, when they are more affordable (like the Cambridge gear as well) I doubt that I would trust them to do everything needed for an AIO, bc. I have experienced how much is requested to integrate all the quality options to bake a fully functional AIO.
At 1-1.5 k I would think you’re technically still better off with selected individual components rather than an AIO solution. This is very much about exchanging components for the better on a very small budget (in audiphile terms). And from the viewpoints of most seasoned Forum members, I would say.

[DuckToller]

But who would buy a 2.5k system ?
Here are my assumptions:
- Some readers that are looking for 2^nd system or 2^nd home system.
These usually would not include the Vinyl solution, unless they want to desert their old vinyl collection to the 2^nd home.
- People looking for replacements at manageable cost.
- People looking for a starter set into digital (and perhaps vinyl)
- Starters looking at an investment that covers digital and vinyl - foremost as a fashion, not for pure audiophile pleasures
- We  may need to keep in mind, that starters usually don’t come with a vast music library on Vinyl/CD/HD, so the online streaming does REALLY offer a lot to them, for the sake of listening and discovering new and past music.

Easy playlist conversion from one provider to the other may be key for most to change up to quality providers.

I have recently noticed that young music enthusiasts crawl through thrift stores with used  CD’s and vinyl, which have flooded the markets in the last ten years. It’s not about SQ alone, but the feeling to have something tangible, something which is lost with the comfort of digital music via Bluetooth.

[DuckToller]

There is as well a point about software to use for the digital side:
- WIIM mini offers an app for control and connect, but you have no library management.
- The free Foobar (FB2K) might be the best complice with it, however it isn’t much of a self-explaining tool, learning curve may be required.
- Same is to say about the JRiver Media Center, but gratification is more instantly, as you pay for a true media center including options you may want to use in the years to come.
- RPi based streamers offer as well free (or donation ware) options,.
Thus I have just experienced  with my latest essay to give an easy to use Volumio flavored RPi,  that I found really easy to use, to my oldest friend.
However, it limits his personal experience of digital music, because he still thinks it’s so much more complicated than listening to a CD. It is about the mass of information on music, he doesn’t need it or isn’t used to it, that blocks him emotionally from the use.
My son, 40 years minor than him, as well doesn’t appreciate the information overflow he would need to care about when using something different than Deezer or Apple Music, and he can’t see the advantages to get more involved in controlling the digital side of music by his own means.

So we aren’t in a generation gap, it may be about our own particular interest in controlling the chain and the music, developed over a lifetime achievement in audiophile environments, that sometimes makes us a bit blind for the limited/streamlined needs of others.
Our best bet to real life is usually the significant other, who requests an easy to use system that looks good, hasn’t got more than one remote control and does everything he/she/it wants via iPhone.

[DuckToller]

In my opinion, there should be a sweet spot calculator in these thread, allowing to offer some ideas about how to design your 2.5k system, the variables are the different requirements/limitations.

A modern system may have this standard configuration :
Speaker – Amp – Digital front end (DAC/Streamer)
plus one of these three options, or even all of them.
-  Phono               -  CD                      - Headphones

and we may assume that at least a computer/phone/tablet is available to manage tasks like control, ripping, music library management. Software and cables shall not be included in the calculation.

I will track down your ideas in order to create a little database with these systems and components, build to inspire beginners and offering legit fun to us seasoned audiophiles, playing around with systems we may never buy, bc they are out of our range (in a good sense, but nevertheless)

[DuckToller]

Speaker:  If going passive, standmounted or floorstanders are the options
For active speakers, I can’t see floor standers below 1.5k, but I may be misinformed and happy to hear about them offers.
A subwoofer or 2  may be a quality add-on if space/budget allows it. That would limit budget in other positions. Open for discussion.
Amplifier:
I see the amplification as the most volatile part of the system, bc it either could be transformed by using active speakers, mostly Class D. Or using a Class D amplifier from Chinese provenance like SMSL, Topping, SABAJ etc.
The DecWare is a valid option for people who want to get that Tube Amp experience started, especially  with the Klipsch high sensitivity speakers, but I rather see it as an option for the seasoned reader than for a beginner. Nice flavor anyway.

[DuckToller]

Digital frontend:
Starts at 350 $/€ with the SMSL DAC DO100 and a WIIM mini, may be not the longest lasting choice but astonishing versatile for a start. I give credit to the Bluenode for having the ease of use and no need for getting into tecs & specs with multiple units. But comfort isn’t cost prohibitive …

CD player:
This is as close as digital does come to the Vinyl side. We need to change CDs, have a tangible impact for the music experience, even it is digital. A branded Hifi-CD-Player – however - seems to me kind of cost prohibitive, when a CD-Driver for the notebook or computer could serve as ripping source and EAC would offer the bit perfect solution on the software side. Again, this is cost & comfort again personal involvement & learning curve. I found a Sony BR/DVD/CD player for a combative price chez Amazon. Leaves budget for more important spendings ;-)

[DuckToller]

A vinyl spinner with a MM or MC system and a Phono pre amp:
Most affordable digital amps don’t offer an integrated phono pre amp (this will change in the coming 2 years, I may predict), so the Schiit Mani and other less than 200 $/€ Phono Pre may be the best option with a good quality spinner and system, for which I would calculate about 400 Euros.
That may not suit our audiophile egos, but for most first time buyers of record player, audiophile nirvana isn’t their first route, they’d be happy if it is functional and looks good, even in 5 years. For ease of use a deck with BT may be an option, too.

I think most of us know, that for having a vinyl system that can challenge a 500$/€  digital front end, you need to invest multiples of that sum to get only close. From a rational point of view, it seems to be more satisfying for SQ to expand the expense for the digital front end to 1.5k $/€ and invest 3.5k into your music library and/or in HQP flavored digital playback chain, rather than spend 5k on turntable, pick-up and Pre, without having added any physical music to the equation.

[DuckToller]

Headphones: I think you can have pretty good headphones between 200 - 500 $/€ nowadays, and the equation is about HP amp+ Headphones or integrated HP amp + headphones, as digital amps and some DACs do offer acceptable HP output and leave you financial space for decent HPs.

I may have already some different systems in my configurational mind, but I am very happy to get even more inspirations by equipment that you may have experienced or you have a decent review source for.

[DuckToller]

Her are my two starter options:
From the scratch, using inspiration by bobfa’s config isn’t a bad starting point:

Speaker: Active speaker Kali In-8, pair around 700 (lowest I saw 622) $/€

Plus subwoofer from Klipsch Reference R-10SW, about 200 $/€ per piece

R-10SW_-_Spec_Sheet_635424116393442000.pdfR-10SW_-_Spec_Sheet_635424116393442000.pdf

[DuckToller]

The digital side:

DAC/HP amp: RME ADI 2FS DAC                                               1000 $/€

Alternative (for vinyl inclusion) SMSL D0100/HO100         400$/€

Streamer: WIIM Mini                                                                    100 $/€

CD Player Sony DVPSR210P DVD-Player                                       35 $/€

 

 

Download.jfif

[DuckToller]

Headphones:
Dan Clark AEON RT                                                                  500 $/€

 

or Sennheiser 660S                                                                        380 $/€

 

[DuckToller]

Vinyl:
TEAC TN-400BT-SE Turntable w/ Bluetooth 500 $/€

 

[DuckToller]

Variant A: 622/1000/100/35/500/200 =                2,457 $/€
Variant B: 622/380/380/100/35/500/400 =           2,417 $/€

With Variant B having dual Klipsch Reference R-10SW subwoofer about 200 $/€ each.
For Variant A a single sub must be sufficient.

The basic trigger here is the very competitive priced pair of active speaker, if you go for other solutions on the speaker side, other parts of the system may have the need to be sacrificed, i.E. the 650 Euros for HP amp and phones.

Many digital amps nowadays have modern BT stacks included, which means, that you could sacrifice digital input qualities of a DAC component and use onboard solutions to gratify budget to the passive speakers. I will look into such a configuration in the coming days.

[DuckToller]

 

[Iving]

Nice work Tom

[DuckToller]

Product links  - manufacturer - added

[PeterG]

3 hours ago, DuckToller said:

But who would buy a 2.5k system ?
Here are my assumptions:
- Some readers that are looking for 2^nd system or 2^nd home system.
These usually would not include the Vinyl solution, unless they want to desert their old vinyl collection to the 2^nd home.
- People looking for replacements at manageable cost.
- People looking for a starter set into digital (and perhaps vinyl)
- Starters looking at an investment that covers digital and vinyl - foremost as a fashion, not for pure audiophile pleasures
- We  may need to keep in mind, that starters usually don’t come with a vast music library on Vinyl/CD/HD, so the online streaming does REALLY offer a lot to them, for the sake of listening and discovering new and past music.

Easy playlist conversion from one provider to the other may be key for most to change up to quality providers.

I have recently noticed that young music enthusiasts crawl through thrift stores with used  CD’s and vinyl, which have flooded the markets in the last ten years. It’s not about SQ alone, but the feeling to have something tangible, something which is lost with the comfort of digital music via Bluetooth.

 

I should have disclosed before--I bought a $2500 system!  (OK, $3,000) About 10 years ago, after letting my previous hifi dissipate to the demands of family, it was my re-entry into hifi

 

Old Macbook--free

Amarra HiFi--$50

Dragonfly and cable--$250

NAD C326BCC--$550

B&W CM-1, with stands--$1400

REL T5i--$700

 

This was a great budget system, done with plenty of help from my excellent local dealer, and it would be easy to find its descendants available today for about the same cost.  Today it's (mostly) in my second home, still loved.  Best of all (for both me and dealer, haha), it got me hooked and led to bigger and better things, as you suggested...

[DuckToller]

8 hours ago, PeterG said:

 

I should have disclosed before--I bought a $2500 system!  (OK, $3,000) About 10 years ago, after letting my previous hifi dissipate to the demands of family, it was my re-entry into hifi

 

Old Macbook--free

Amarra HiFi--$50

Dragonfly and cable--$250

NAD C326BCC--$550

B&W CM-1, with stands--$1400

REL T5i--$700

 

This was a great budget system, done with plenty of help from my excellent local dealer, and it would be easy to find its descendants available today for about the same cost.  Today it's (mostly) in my second home, still loved.  Best of all (for both me and dealer, haha), it got me hooked and led to bigger and better things, as you suggested...

Peter,

almost the same brands here, when the audiophile interest was reignited in 2010.

A Rega Planar 3 (1996), a Nakamichi Tape Deck (2000) and a Hifidelio Pro (2005) (US: Olive Symphony) were already in-house, but unused for a couple of years
- At first I bought a pair of B&W 805s (new) at 1700 $/€
- Then I chose the NAD stack 165/275 BEE at 1600 $/€
- I found a CAPS Zuma build 2014 here in the forums at 650 $/€
- and a Klein DAC in Australia at 550 $/€
Which brought the budget up to 4500 $/€, not at once but over the range of almost 4 years.

 

I would contemplate that the SQ of that invest may be sufficiently met with a 2,5k strictly digital system. Though there are questions about longevity of devices, the ZUMA i7-4790 is still running almost flawless, not sure the WIIM mini would does the same in 2030 ...

Cheers, Tom

 

[DuckToller]

Here is an alternative combination I really would love to audition:
These Jamo C97 II speakers are eyecandy (349$ per unit at Crutchfield.com) and the Cyrus One Cast seems to be a beast with even HDMI ARC., DAC and speech control.
I've heard the Cyrus One HD 2019 at a presentation with the very affordable Cyrus One Linear speakers, which may have seen the inside of the IAG mega factory in Shenzen. The performance was astonishingly good.

Though this is an AIO, the Cyrus brand has a long lasting blind spot in my heart, I have aquired a vintage Cyrus IIIi some years ago for small money. And I love it.

While the Cyrus One Series  (one, HD, Cast) seems to be on summer sale in the UK, you can find the range between 999 and 1499 $ in the US, there was an open Box/ex-demo Cast for 997$ at TMRaudio.com today.

The open box route may allow us to add one or two subwoofers (Jamo C910/912 - 170-229 $ per unit) to the equation, which would support beneficially the choice of the Klipsch R600 or the Polk R200.

However you could go instead of subs for suiting headphones or the TEAC record player.
If you go for an open box Cyrus at 1k$ you may be able to include HPs (i.e. Hifiman Sundara at 249$) and the subs together.
 

Jamo C97 II (698$/pair)

Polk R200 (750$/pair)

Klipsch RP-600M II (750$/pair)

Cyrus One Cast (997-1499$)

Jamo C910/912 (up to 450$/pair)

 

Hifiman Sundara Headphones (299$)

[semente]

On 7/18/2022 at 1:40 AM, davide256 said:

keep the 96 db efficient Klipsch speakers

 

Probably only around 90dB sensitive:

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/klipsch-reference-premiere-rp-600m-loudspeaker-measurements

 

[DuckToller]

8 minutes ago, semente said:

 

Probably only around 90dB sensitive:

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/klipsch-reference-premiere-rp-600m-loudspeaker-measurements

 

thank you @semente

This seems to be the 2019 model measurements which is now on sales for 4-500$ the pair.
Not a bad deal neither.

[semente]

 

Just now, DuckToller said:

thank you @semente

This seems to be the 2019 model measurements which is now on sales for 4-500$ the pair.
Not a bad deal neither.

 

The old model was also specified as 96dB but it's only wishful thinking and they're cheating.

 

This is a much better speaker:

 

https://arendalsound.com/product/1723-monitor-s-thx/

[DuckToller]

3 minutes ago, semente said:

 

 

The old model was also specified as 96dB but it's only wishful thinking and they're cheating.

 

This is a much better speaker:

 

https://arendalsound.com/product/1723-monitor-s-thx/

Wow, I really love the sweet waveguided tweeter,

 

however they won't suit a 2.5k system at 1899$/pair. Only if it's all digital.
Probably not bad with an all-digital DAC/Amp like the Sabaj A30 @ 499$ & WIIM,
but we would be short of headphones and/or turntable.