Jump to content
IGNORED

Article: Thoughts On Immersive Audio


Recommended Posts

  • 3 months later...
On 5/10/2023 at 5:31 AM, El Guapo said:

I helped a friend setting his H2-4D two months ago. Dante/AES67 works fine. H2-4D can fit in Ravenna/AES67 but only @ 48KHz (which is enough for Atmos and DTS:X tho).

IMG_6745.thumb.jpeg.4cceb1d2ba179e13185357db88bb5a26.jpeg


Audio path is:

Arvus <AES67> Hang Loose Convolver runs 65K taps length FIR filters for RC <AES67> Merging DACs. No lip-sync issue when watching Blu-ray contents.❤️

Image3-27-23at9_13PM.thumb.jpeg.76f1090d1e7c721d421e32710bb9784f.jpeg

 

But because Merging’s ANEMAN can’t see Dante/AES67 so you have to go Advanced page to manually set the connections.

Image2023-3-28at4_40PM.thumb.jpeg.a3c7f18ba38c1b51ab21a04d099a47ef.jpeg


Playback DTS:X contents from VLC also no problems.

Image2023-3-28at9_27PM.thumb.jpeg.905a8f9a6caeb9f6d7e88531af7be3f6.jpeg
 

Can’t wait for H1-D.😃

This is a wonderful information i also wait for H1-D. Do you have more detailed information of your friends setup. It would be very appreciated.

Maike

Link to comment

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protectors +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Protection>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three BXT (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three BXT

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

Link to comment
1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Another pretty good article about immersive audio in the NYT. I usually read stuff like this and roll my eyes. 

I just thought it was interesting they mentioned quadrophonic 4.1 as a precursor to immersive, but didn't mention SACD and 5.1

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protectors +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Protection>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three BXT (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three BXT

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

Link to comment
7 hours ago, JoeWhip said:

Read that NYT piece. One day people in the industry will realize that spatial audio works with anything, from one instrument pieces to full orchestras. It depends on the person making the mix. One botched effort does not mean a particular genre can’t work in spatial.

I was going to contact the writer, but because he isn't on NYT staff his info isn't provided. I couldn't find a good email for him. My have an issue with the following paragraph and was going to give him some examples to show him he isn't correct. There's no such thing as a good or bad format for a type of music. it's all about the people who create it, their decisions, their skill level, and the direction they are given.

 

"Similarly, some selections you can find in Apple Music’s “Classical in Spatial Audio” playlists seem poorly selected for the format. A recording of a profound solo work like Bach’s “The Well-Tempered Clavier” isn’t exactly crying out for the spatial treatment. But when it receives one — as in an otherwise pleasant recording by Fazil Say — it merely sounds like it’s had its reverb levels jacked to the sky. It’s more distracting than moving. Such extraneous mixes are also a poor advertisement for what Dolby Atmos can provide when applied to the right repertoire."

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

Link to comment
1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Apple Music’s “Classical in Spatial Audio”


My understanding is Apple’s spatial audio is meant to be listened with Apple headphones/EarPods with the iPad/iPhone. It involves active head tracking which means you need a camera to track your head movement. [ note: During the earlier developments of products such as this they used to add a caveat that it works for most. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work for me. ]
 

The correct option to hear Apple Spatial music for a more immersive audio with external speakers is to play their Dolby Atmos encoded tracking. Dolby Atmos is not the same as Apple spatial audio. 
 

Without knowing the exact track and the way he played them it is unwise to come to any conclusion based on the writers subjective opinion. 
 

 

Link to comment
52 minutes ago, STC said:


My understanding is Apple’s spatial audio is meant to be listened with Apple headphones/EarPods with the iPad/iPhone. It involves active head tracking which means you need a camera to track your head movement. [ note: During the earlier developments of products such as this they used to add a caveat that it works for most. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work for me. ]
 

The correct option to hear Apple Spatial music for a more immersive audio with external speakers is to play their Dolby Atmos encoded tracking. Dolby Atmos is not the same as Apple spatial audio. 
 

Without knowing the exact track and the way he played them it is unwise to come to any conclusion based on the writers subjective opinion. 
 

 

Hi STC, Apple calls all Dolby Atmos spatial audio. It can be played on any system with any headphones or speakers. Head tracking requires Apple products, but no camera. 
 

Only music played to headphones goes through Apple’s spatial audio renderer, rather than the Dolby Atmos official renderer. 

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

Link to comment
15 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Only music played to headphones goes through Apple’s spatial audio renderer, rather than the Dolby Atmos official renderer.


More confusion here and Apple is not forthcoming with proper explanation for the technology they use. Apple spatial audio itself means very little unless the format is Dolby Atmos or multichannel. It can be useful for stage following with headphones. External speakers relies on Atmos format for the immersive surround feel. For music which is predominantly frontal event the surround function only meant to produce ambiance adding spaciousness. For marketing purpose, it is possible to place any instruments around the listener for “wow” factor. 
 

Problem is when we remaster original stereo or multichannel work for ATMOS or process them for spatial audio like Sony360, it is basically the engineers design. Looking at the sudden surge of ATMOS, I doubt they actually do vigorous testing for proper spectral balance in typical setups. Bob Marley’s Dolby ATMOS is an example. Those do not have spatial awareness formation. So Dolby ATMOS to have commercial success they have add more contends than the ambiance to the sound outside the frontal stage.  
 

So basically, we are listening to Dolby Atmos of Apple remastering. This got nothing to do to the original purpose of Apple spatial audio. It is just spatial audio or immersive audio of surround sound with height info ( that is most likely just more reverbs ). 
 

I would suggest that you pay close attention to Oppenheimer’s music during the credit score at the end and compare that to the Dolby ATMOS version of Apple. You do not get the imaging and floating separation of the instruments as in the IMAX version with Dolby ATMOS. 

Link to comment
6 minutes ago, STC said:

For music which is predominantly frontal event the surround function only meant to produce ambiance adding spaciousness

Why would you limit music to a frontal event and only ambiance in surround channels? Now that we have good technology to place sound in a 3D space, it has been freed from the bounds of all that came before. 
 

 

8 minutes ago, STC said:

For marketing purpose, it is possible to place any instruments around the listener for “wow” factor. 


You should really listen to some Atmos. There is some fantastic music using all the channels. Grateful Dead with four different voices harmonizing from four different height channels is amazing. I’ve yet to hear anything “wow” factor-ish. 
 

 

 

11 minutes ago, STC said:

Problem is when we remaster original stereo or multichannel work for ATMOS or process them for spatial audio like Sony360, it is basically the engineers design


Very true, but I don’t see it as a problem. I used to, until I spent a lot of time listening. 
 

 

12 minutes ago, STC said:

Looking at the sudden surge of ATMOS, I doubt they actually do vigorous testing for proper spectral balance in typical setups

It’s a creative decision by the engineers involved. If they want balance or not, it’s not anyone’s job to test. 
 

 

 

13 minutes ago, STC said:

basically, we are listening to Dolby Atmos of Apple remastering. This got nothing to do to the original purpose of Apple spatial audio. It is just spatial audio or immersive audio of surround sound with height info ( that is most likely just more reverbs ). 


 

If you use headphones, you hear Apple’s renderer. Engineers can listen through this now when creating a mix. 
 

There isn’t a singular original purpose of spatial audio.  Artists now have tools to create and deliver music a different way. 

15 minutes ago, STC said:

would suggest that you pay close attention to Oppenheimer’s music during the credit score at the end and compare that to the Dolby ATMOS version of Apple. You do not get the imaging and floating separation of the instruments as in the IMAX version with Dolby ATMOS.


I can listen to it on my 12 channel system in the next couple days. I don’t have an imax system so I can’t compare :~)

 

The issue with imax is it’s limited to a couple theaters in each large city. Atmos is available on billions of devices. 

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

Link to comment
35 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Why would you limit music to a frontal event and only ambiance in surround channels? Now that we have good technology to place sound in a 3D space, it has been freed from the bounds of all that came before. 
 


Musical event is a frontal stage performance. Unless, there is violinist hanging on a cable circling the stage and hall, all the sound incidence originate from the frontal stage.

 

For movies and games, you want sound to come around us as it provides cues of actual source located in 3D space.  For music, the initial idea was to retrieve or recreated the ambiance to to the surround. But that is no longer the idea as multi channel format allow to direct different instruments to different speakers. That is exciting and like-able but imagine to expect the same placement in real live performance!

 

 

35 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You should really listen to some Atmos. There is some fantastic music using all the channels. Grateful Dead with four different voices harmonizing from four different height channels is amazing. I’ve yet to hear anything “wow” factor-ish. 

 

“So it’s no surprise that purists may balk at Wilson’s Atmos take on Europe ‘72, which engages both the rear and height speakers for a full-on immersive experience. Perhaps the lack of accompanying video allowed him free license to experiment even further with the spatial positioning? I never would have guessed that a live recording of this vintage could lend itself to such an adventurous surround mix. It makes one wonder what he could achieve with other classic live albums from this era, such as Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young’s 4 Way Street or Deep Purple’s Made In Japan.

The rhythm guitars are mostly panned to the side speakers, while lead vocals are largely isolated in the center channel. Though the rear surround and rear height channels predominantly carry ‘you are there’ reverberation and ambience, the front height speakers are used quite extensively for lead guitar, piano, and organ parts. The Dead’s trademark harmonies appear all around the room, with individual voices sometimes even placed in the top speakers.

The overall sound quality is impressive for an early-70s live recording, and – perhaps due to the wide channel separation – considerably clearer than the original stereo mix. That said, there is some noticeable distortion on the rhythm guitar parts and the drums seem a bit too far back in the mix at times.” - immersive audio.com

 

That’s wow factor to me.   

35 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

If you use headphones, you hear Apple’s renderer. Engineers can listen through this now when creating a mix. 


Apple spatial audio uses your own ears to calculate and render the BRIR. It is not used to mastering. It is for playback to externalization the sound and place the audio object as intended. They would use Dolly ATMOS encoding for immersive sound mastering. 
 

It would be interesting if you extract each speaker’s sound individually to see what they are really producing. Do you hear 12 individual instruments all the time or something else or nothing at all.

 

Link to comment
3 minutes ago, STC said:

Musical event is a frontal stage performance. Unless, there is violinist hanging on a cable circling the stage and hall, all the sound incidence originate from the frontal stage.

No. 
 

spacer.png

 

 

Where is the front supposed to be for Dark Side of the Moon? There was never a musical event. 
 

 

5 minutes ago, STC said:

Apple spatial audio uses your own ears to calculate and render the BRIR. It is not used to mastering. It is for playback to externalization the sound and place the audio object as intended. They would use Dolly ATMOS encoding for immersive sound mastering. 


It can, but that isn’t required. 
 

When I open Logic I can select the Apple spatial audio renderer or a Dolby renderer. Each gives me what the end user will hear. 

6 minutes ago, STC said:

would be interesting if you extract each speaker’s sound individually to see what they are really producing. Do you hear 12 individual instruments all the time or something else or nothing at all.


That’s simple either on the 12 channel WAV output from the decoder or by using my Merging Anubis that can isolate channels with the push of a button. 

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

Link to comment
33 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

No. 
 

spacer.png

 


And I suppose the listener is in the middle surrounded by music. The correct way to produce this would require the same number of speakers as the performers but then they are not using individual mics to capture individual sound. So how the engineers can separate the instruments? 
 

33 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Where is the front supposed to be

 The only time I experience such sound is when sitting around camp fire. That too not surround feel but singer and instruments from front to side and nothing behind me. 😂

 

I have not been to an actual event like this in real life. 
 

33 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

It can, but that isn’t required. 
 

When I open Logic I can select the Apple spatial audio renderer or a Dolby renderer. Each gives me what the end user will hear. 


Me too. I just choose what’s sound best to my ears. Some old movie sounds good with all multi channel stereo far better than the 5.1 format they render. 
 

33 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

That’s simple either on the 12 channel WAV output from the decoder or by using my Merging Anubis that can isolate channels with the push of a button. 


That would be very useful to understand about immersive audio.

 

and about Dark Side of Moon….original intended as quadrphonic format. A true 360 degrees circle sound. 
 

Music can be made to make sound come from any direction you want. It doesn’t make it right or wrong. It is a different format and not to be mixed with spatial hearing. Spatial audio is about rendering sound to the ears as one would hear in live event. The 3D and immersive audio is about rendering sound surrounding us. 

Link to comment
24 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Please take a closer look at the picture for recording session. The mics positions / directions are 7 for level and 5 for height. It can match both Dolby 7.1.4 and Auro3D’s speaker layout. If you want to playback such recording, best experience will be discrete DXD with matching speaker layout (for example, 7.1.4).IMG_8338.thumb.jpeg.ab57ac9c381dd668c5f8eae677fe4c3e.jpeg


It is known as 2L Cube developed by Morten himself.  The use is of total 11 channels depends on the format. For example for the use of stereo, input of 2 mics only used and the information of other mics are ignored. 
 

2L recording is specifically made to exemplify surround feel. 
 

I am not saying they sound bad , I am just addressing the initial quote of NYT where some format may not sound good if it is not originally made with surround in mind. 2L is so far the best immersive experience.  I am one of the early advocates for multi channel sound reproduction for music. Please don’t get me wrong. 

Link to comment
4 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Yes. Here's the system map:

IMG_8334.thumb.JPG.5a8ad9839260057f187e608149367a7c.JPG

 

His system is for both home theater and immersive music. FIR is produced by ALXO. DSP is powered by Hang Loose Convolver.

This is a set-up that has been in my head for a long time. I think that the yellow lines are Ravenna network. Am I correct in assuming that AD-DA conversion takes place in the Merging MK2. How does the system behave in movies with lip sync when the sound is still routed through the MAC and Convolver? My speakers have partial Hypex Fusion Plate amplifiers and if possible I would like to do as much as possible without AD-DA conversion and drive digitally to the speakers. BTW what is ALXO? Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Link to comment
3 hours ago, Me2 said:

AD-DA conversion takes place in the Merging MK2

There’s no AD - DA in the system. All digital to digital. That’s why we choose AoIP — Arvus H2-4D has AES67 interoperability. (Technically speaking there’s only one AD: Anubis’ mic pre when doing log sweep.)

 

3 hours ago, Me2 said:

How does the system behave in movies with lip sync when the sound is still routed through the MAC and Convolver?

The latency of AoIP is very low actually. 4ms from Dante/AES67 and 1ms from Ravenna/AES67 @48KHz sampling rate. The convolver’s processing buffer is about 10ms (480 frames). FIR filter’s latency depends on taps length and optimization knowledge. Most of the time he uses 16K taps FIR per pipeline for theater and 65K taps per pipeline for immersive audio. Lip sync is within tolerable range.


ALXO is Audiolense XO. World’s best DRC software for multichannel. You can get it from:

https://juicehifi.net

Link to comment

I wrote a little description of how to get virtalised rendering of Atmos into your headphones on a shoestring.
It's easy to have an opinion if you never experienced Atmos or surround.
I bet most will think otherwise once you hear Kind of blue or Jean-Michel Jarre's Oxymore - even through this €200 setup!
 

 

Promise Pegasus2 R6 12TB -> Thunderbolt2 ->
MacBook Pro M1 Pro -> Motu 8D -> AES/EBU ->
Main: Genelec 5 x 8260A + 2 x 8250 + 2 x 8330 + 7271A sub
Boat: Genelec 8010 + 5040 sub

Hifiman Sundara, Sennheiser PXC 550 II, Smyth Realiser A16
Blog: “Confessions of a DigiPhile”

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...