Windows 7 sp1

[gtener]

I wanted to start a new thread on this topic because it may be serious enough to warrant further discussion.

 

Is anyone noticing a difference in sound quality with SP1 on their Windows 7 machines?

 

[blaine78]

YES. i have a thread on here with the same question, nobody has responded yet. I hear a difference between W7 and W7 SP1. what are your findings?

 

[Miska]

YES. i have a thread on here with the same question, nobody has responded yet. I hear a difference between W7 and W7 SP1. what are your findings?

 

AFAIK, there isn't much else in SP1 than collection of the earlier released separate updates. In this light, it would be interesting to know if you have been keeping your system up-to-date prior to SP1 and if anybody knows which included KB-number makes the difference?

 

 

[blaine78]

there is an audio update that supposed to correct issues with HDMI, i know when i install SP1, the sound device settings reset. Even though this is for HDMI, it could also affect other parts of the sound device driver. and yes, i had all the updates prior to installing SP1.

 

Improved HDMI audio device performance:

· A small percentage of users have reported issues in which the connection between computers running Windows 7 and HDMI audio devices can be lost after system reboots. Updates have been incorporated into SP1 to ensure that connections between Windows 7 computers and HDMI audio devices are consistently maintained.

 

[gtener]

I've upgraded to SP1 and I am not noticing any difference at all. Maybe my system isn't resolving enough, but it sounds the same. I uninstalled and listened and then I reinstalled and listened after I read your initial query. No difference.

 

[blaine78]

Hmmm, i wish it wasn't the case with my setup.

After doing google searches about this, I found that others over at XXhighend forum also noticed difference, but for the majority, they seem to think it improved, I have the opposite. For the 3rd time, I will install SP1 tonight and see if i'm not going mad .

 

[iq100]

I am curious as to your testing methods.

If the difference is MAJOR, no need to respond.

But if the difference is subtle, how do you do your testing?

 

1. Do you have someone else switch the two environments to be tested, in a manner that you do NOT know the details for which you are listening to?

 

2. How do you make sure the volume levels are exactly the same?

 

3. Do you vary the testing order so that things like 'ear fatique' are eliminated?

 

4. Have you ever tried to use a quality microphone to digitized the thru the air speaker output and then compare the graphs?

 

Thanks for your efforts.

 

iq100

the best way to delete an idea is to post one of your own.

one of perhaps a hundred BANNED from J. River INTERCEPT.

Egypt, and soon Libya have learned to accept peacefull self expression.

Could J. River be next to UNBAN people?

 

 

 

[blaine78]

the difference is enough for me to either enjoy the music, or an uncomfortable strain to listen to. on a system i know very, very well. that's my method.

 

[gtener]

Honestly.... none of the above. I updated..I listened..I uninstalled..I listened..I reinstalled..I listened. Scientific? Not really. So, maybe there was a difference but I couldn't hear it.

 

[blaine78]

Maybe HiFace is unaffected? I know of another who is using HiFace with no perceived sound difference. i'm using Ayre straight to USB with default windows USB audio drivers, HiFace has it's own drivers.. interesting.

 

[Miska]

Maybe HiFace is unaffected?

 

So far the interfaces I've tested with in W7 SP1 are hiFace and Mac Mini's (older one with external PSU) optical output.

 

All machines connected to the same DAC, so it's about just switching between the inputs.

 

 

[blaine78]

After installing SP1 for the 3rd time. I can say without a doubt 100% yes there is a difference in my my setup. It sounds cleaner, smoother, much softer, but missing musicality, edge and excitement. It sounds less void of distortion, but the irony is the distortion (maybe jitter?) added the edge and excitement, still not sure if it is distortion that is missing, rather inner detail. Whether i like this, time will tell. i'm going to give this more of a chance and keep the update for a bit longer on my computer. Again YES, thee is a difference that is obvious to me in my system.

 

[blaine78]

After a few days listening to SP1, i conclude it doesn't sound good with the Ayre and rest of the system. What i thought was a 'cleaner and smother' sound is actually congested and loss of dynamics. Unintalled it for the 4th time, and my system sings again, more dynamics, soundstage and detail.

 

[blaine78]

OK. i re-tried SP1 for the 5th time. This time i played around with the power filtering I had on the computer, and also recently got proper isolation racks for the computer and hi-fi.

 

With Sp1 installed, with the new isolation racks, i started to hear that it was doing something right, it sounded less gritty (jitter maybe) but at the same time lost soundstage, dynamics and bite (this I've mentioned before) and found it too smooth for my taste. It sounded like i had added a power filter (or bad up-sampling) to the system that was over doing its job and lost enthusiasm for the music. So, i decided to remove the Belkin Isolator power filter and have the computer directly plugged into the wall. WOW, soundstage, dynamics are back, and now it also sounds smoother but the bite is back. I guess this is all about getting the synergy right. I will report back in a week, but so far, i think install SP1, and play around with the rest of the system to make it work for you, or maybe it is perfect for some straight away. happy listening.

 

[Oystein]

@blaine:

 

This seems to be a typical case where a change in setup (update to SP1) made very clear that you had a limitation somewhere in your system.

 

The improvement came out as a step back ... but it was external and hapily solved.

 

[PeterSt]

After doing google searches about this, I found that others over at XXhighend forum also noticed difference, but for the majority, they seem to think it improved

 

May it be important or not, please allow me to correct this a litte :

 

Of course not everybody expressed a judgement about this over at phasure.com, but those who did ALL are sure it's an improvement. And to be hopefully clear : people are or on Vista (after explicitly moving back to there from W7 RTM) or are W7-SP1.

There is nothing in between, hence no W7 RTM.

 

But to put all in the proper context, please notice that for each OS version I try my stinking best to let XXHighEnd produce the best sound. So, for that individual OS. With Vista this was quite OK, for W7 RTM it just couldn't work, and for W7-SP1 all is just more than "OK" right out of the box.

 

The latter (right out of the box) is not 100% true, because for that particular OS I could finally work on eliminating SSDs and RAMDisks in order to achieve BETTER SQ (which before failed).

 

All is a longer story, and hopefully this suffices.

Peter

 

PS: You cold also look at untweaked Vista and W7 RTM for disk IO at doing nothing, which is why I created the "tweak to dead" thread ever back (I assume this known to readers, and otherwise it is not important). For W7-SP1 this is not necessary at all, and disk lights will stay nicely off for several minutes, up to the spinning down of the OS disk.

As said, much more is involved.

 

 

 

[Jud]

blaine78 writes:

 

So, i decided to remove the Belkin Isolator power filter and have the computer directly plugged into the wall. WOW, soundstage, dynamics are back, and now it also sounds smoother but the bite is back.

 

I think most power filters, even quite high-end ones, are a bad idea. On the advice of an audio equipment manufacturer whose judgment I trust, I tried listening to my system without any of my power filtering/isolation equipment (most of it from MIT, plus one Monster power strip). It made quite a difference for the better.

 

Full disclosure, this manufacturer does offer his own power cables and power strips, but I intend to wait a while before thinking about purchasing any of them to try out.

 

[blaine78]

Completely agree with you, is why i've left the Ayre DAC and ATC amp plugged direct in to the wall. As for the computer, power filter seemed to work really well when using windows 7 without SP1 as i think there was so much gritt in the sound that the power filter compensated for this. but SP1 is so gritt free that power filter added to PC is over kill. Glad you get where i'm at. Am now happy with where the sound is heading. SP1 is a good thing

 

[blaine78]

Thanks Pete.

 

I've had great help from you and your XXhighend forum. Very valuable information that has made my PC sound fantastic.

 

[PeterSt]

Now who would have though that a few weeks back !

 

Very nice that you mention this explicitly. Really cool.

 

Peter

 

[Miska]

i've left the Ayre DAC and ATC amp plugged direct in to the wall. As for the computer, power filter seemed to work really well when using windows 7 without SP1 as i think there was so much gritt in the sound that the power filter compensated for this. but SP1 is so gritt free that power filter added to PC is over kill

 

I still prefer to protect expensive equipment against overvoltage spikes caused by lightning, electric motors, etc.

 

I don't think UPS is over kill for a PC, and most of those contain EMI/RFI filtering and over voltage protection.

 

Naturally, without filtering occasional pops and crackles in sound increase "liveliness"...

 

 

[blaine78]

i agree, surge protection is a must, but without the EMI filtering, it seems to sit right with my system in this configuration.

 

[Jud]

Most stuff sold to consumers as surge protection isn't fast-acting enough to do what it's been purchased to do, i.e., protect equipment from near-instant electrical surges.

 

I actually thought of avoiding this, since I'll probably come off sounding like a shill for the company (I have no connection whatever other than as a satisfied customer), but a place I'd recommend for surge protection equipment that leaves the sound unharmed to the extent possible is here:

 

http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/bDouble-Helix-MK1-Power-Conditioning-Strip_b/productinfo/MK1PS-ST/

 

(can add surge protection under options)

 

I should tell you that I have *not* purchased any power conditioning or surge protection equipment here. I have, however, purchased both analog and digital cables here (and from Omega Mikro, a higher-end partnership the owner has with another individual) over a period of almost 20 years, as well as gotten lots of audio advice. The equipment and the advice have been unfailingly excellent. (The Omega Mikro Zephyr S/PDIF cable I've been using for the past year or more is in itself one of the more wonderful sonic upgrades I've ever had to my system.)

 

[Paul R]

Surge protection is pretty much useless in my opinion - it may protect your system once, perhaps even twice, but after that you have to replace the dang thing- it's just a power strip.

 

Basic UPS isn't much better, and is just really "Battery Backup" - it doesn't do anything to condition the power coming through it. Mostly it monitors the mains and switches in batter power if it senses the mains stop flowing.

 

You need a UPS that takes in power from the mains, uses that to charge the batteries, and feeds power out from the batteries. (Double conversion online power.)

 

In other words, one where you are always running on clean battery power.

 

That does not come cheap I am afraid. The low end of this scale is something like the APS "Smart-UPS On-Line" product, which starts at about $1000. Rack mountable for about another $100 or so.

 

 

 

[Jud]

Paul.Raulerson writes:

 

Surge protection is pretty much useless in my opinion - it may protect your system once, perhaps even twice, but after that you have to replace the dang thing- it's just a power strip.

 

Not merely useless (as I pointed out previously, the protection circuits are most often too slow to stop the most damaging surges, such as those caused by lightning) but actively harmful to the sound - it is the job of surge protection, after all, to stop steep transients.