Article: Installing My 7.1.4 Immersive Audio System

[jrobbins50]

@El Guapo, I agree that hearing Dolby Atmos from artists whom never had a FLAC or SACD MCH mix is rather fun. Two of my favorite Apple Spacial tracks are “The Time (Dirty Bit)” by the Black Eyed Peas and “All I Wanna Do” by Sheryl Crow.  JCR 

[austinpop]

Chris, 

 

You realize that with a retractable screen and a projector and you also have a killer home theater!

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Chris, 

 

You realize that with a retractable screen and a projector and you also have a killer home theater!

Oh yes. I’m just not into video at all.

[Account Closed]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Oh yes. I’m just not into video at all.

Not right now but in the future, maybe? But, if you do your 60 amp panel may not be enough. Seriously, you might want to consider it in the future. What you have is the audio portion of a killer VR setup. The video part will come sooner than we think. Theaters are desperate for an immersive experience and if it is developed for a commercial venue home use won't be far behind. I doubt that many people would be willing to go to the lengths you did for audio alone. Surround sound was an offshoot of commercial theater from the 1990s. I think immersive audio using discreet components in space (as opposed to the headset approach) is really aimed primarily at the commercial theater market right now. The video part being much more difficult will take longer. But, if your future play is immersive audio, you may need to move into the video part as it matures. 3D glasses anyone? 

[bbosler]

Question about placement of the height speakers....

 

from these pictures, and I know it may not tell the whole story, it looks like your seat is way off axis from the heights. It appears the  sides of the heights are facing your seat and they are firing pretty much straight down into the floor 

 

I would think if you can barely see the face of the speaker from the seat you are not going to get very smooth response from it..

 

Shouldn't the face of the speaker be pointing more  toward your chair??

 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 hours ago, bbosler said:

Question about placement of the height speakers....

 

from these pictures, and I know it may not tell the whole story, it looks like your seat is way off axis from the heights. It appears the  sides of the heights are facing your seat and they are firing pretty much straight down into the floor 

 

I would think if you can barely see the face of the speaker from the seat you are not going to get very smooth response from it..

 

Shouldn't the face of the speaker be pointing more  toward your chair??

 

 

 

Good eye Bruce :~)

 

Technically, the height channels can fire downward like rain showers or be aimed at the listening position. Aiming them at the listening position is preferred though. 
 

1. DSP will smooth the response. 
2. The speakers on my ceiling are currently firing downward, but this is only the beginning. I plan to angle them at the listening position, take measurements, do some listening, and determine which position works best sonically. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

One more item to note @bbosler, the images are a little skewed. They make it look like I see the side of the speaker from my listening position. Here are two shots I just took from my chair. These may give a better representation of the speaker angle. 

 

I'm definitely not listening from the side of the speaker, but they could be angled a bit more. The mounts are really nice for turning the speaker in whatever direction is needed. 

 

 

[bbosler]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Here are two shots I just took from my chair. These may give a better representation of the speaker angle. 

 

yes, that looks a lot better. I'm thinking DSP can only do so much and less is better. DSP is going to try and flatten the response so if you are too far off axis it could end up applying an unreasonable amount of boost to the tweeter. With Trinnov you can apply what they call excursion curves that limit the amount of cut/boost that it will apply

 

I will be interested to see where your speakers end up

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, bbosler said:

 

yes, that looks a lot better. I'm thinking DSP can only do so much and less is better. DSP is going to try and flatten the response so if you are too far off axis it could end up applying an unreasonable amount of boost to the tweeter. With Trinnov you can apply what they call excursion curves that limit the amount of cut/boost that it will apply

 

I will be interested to see where your speakers end up

 

I’m always in the camp of less is more. I have an article coming soon, where I’ll detail all the fine tuning. I measured the room first, then made physical/electronic changes, measured again, then had the DSP created. I’m still working with Mitch to create the best sounding convolution filter. Based on the one I’m listening to right now, we may have found it. 

[bbosler]

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Technically, the height channels can fire downward like rain showers or be aimed at the listening position. 

 

that was a lot truer when everything was channel based. Surrounds were often dipoles that fired away from the listening position to create a diffused sound field. Now that we have object  based sound it is important to have the speakers not only in the correct position,  but ideally all speakers would be exactly the same so as a sound object is moved around the room it is a seamless handoff from one speaker to the next. Of course, a room full of Wilson Alexias with some hanging from the ceiling is a bit impractical, so your scheme of smaller Wilsons is as good as you can reasonably do. 

 

DSP can make up for a lot, especially by manipulating phase to make a speaker appear to be in the ideal location, but we are on the same page.. the closer you start to ideal the less correction you need to apply. 

[austinpop]

Haha, that is a hilarious image — Wilson Alexia's as ceiling speakers. But people are crazy enough. Maybe someone somewhere is actually doing it. 🙂

[Brian A]

I obviously don't know much about this stuff.  How much 7.1.4 source material is available?  Are musicians recording in that format or is it for other forms of audio than "plain" music?

 

I read with great interest last year's articles by bluesman about realism vs accuracy and came to respect what recording technicians have to deal with and the soundstage they have to construct.

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, Brian A said:

I obviously don't know much about this stuff.  How much 7.1.4 source material is available?  Are musicians recording in that format or is it for other forms of audio than "plain" music?

 

I read with great interest last year's articles by bluesman about realism vs accuracy and came to respect what recording technicians have to deal with and the soundstage they have to construct.

There are tons of Atmos releases available. Studios are backed up for many months with a long list of A List titles to remix for Atmos. New releases and old releases are in Atmos. Popular titles and more obscure titles are in Atmos. 
 

Atmos is different from the multichannel efforts of the past. The mainstream is pushing it this time. 

[mevdinc]

Great job well done!

[Account Closed]

16 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

There are tons of Atmos releases available. Studios are backed up for many months with a long list of A List titles to remix for Atmos. New releases and old releases are in Atmos. Popular titles and more obscure titles are in Atmos. 
 

Atmos is different from the multichannel efforts of the past. The mainstream is pushing it this time. 

Chris, Is the demand being driven by Apple for the Apple Music platform? I can't remember where I read that Apple primarily sees Atmos as being for headset use which in their case would be their high end earbuds. The article said that they plan to use the scanners in later iPhones to take a measurement of the user's head and ear canal so as to be able to precisely tailor the timing and phase to that user. The one problem I see with discrete components in space is the sweet spot problem which we all know well from our two channel systems. Have you tested if the spatial effect holds as you move away from your listening chair? Sorry to rattle on but there are so many unknowns in this. 

 

Thanks, Bob

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

6 minutes ago, bobflood said:

Chris, Is the demand being driven by Apple for the Apple Music platform? I can't remember where I read that Apple primarily sees Atmos as being for headset use which in their case would be their high end earbuds. The article said that they plan to use the scanners in later iPhones to take a measurement of the user's head and ear canal so as to be able to precisely tailor the timing and phase to that user. The one problem I see with discrete components in space is the sweet spot problem which we all know well from our two channel systems. Have you tested if the spatial effect holds as you move away from your listening chair? Sorry to rattle on but there are so many unknowns in this. 

 

Thanks, Bob

 

Apple is certainly one driver of Atmos. Having a new format that was never released under the ownership / physical goods model could be another. 
 

Artists now having tools to create art without the strict boundaries of two channels is one driver for some musicians. A 3D space in which sound can be placed anywhere is really freeing. 
 

I think VR is a big driver as well. Apple’s head tracking is only the beginning. 
 

No matter the drivers of immersive audio, one benefit is an awesome listening experience for music lovers. 
 

I was listening to a classical concert last night in Atmos, and was totally blown away before the music even started. As soon as I pressed play, I was put right in the middle of a concert hall because of all the spatial cues and sounds coming from all the speakers. There was a sense of air and space, that I was in the middle of. This just isn’t possible with two channels. And, this was before any music was playing!

[bbosler]

4 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

I was listening to a classical concert last night in Atmos, and was totally blown away

 

Don't be a tease 🙄

 

could you please be a bit more specific than "a classical concert" ??

 

Besides sharing ideas about hardware, one of the main benefits of a forum like this is discovering new music. The main reason I subscribe to the major audio rags is the value I find in the descriptions of music being used in their equipment reviews.

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

17 minutes ago, bbosler said:

 

Don't be a tease 🙄

 

could you please be a bit more specific than "a classical concert" ??

 

Besides sharing ideas about hardware, one of the main benefits of a forum like this is discovering new music. The main reason I subscribe to the major audio rags is the value I find in the descriptions of music being used in their equipment reviews.

 

 

I’m working on more articles about this and prefer not to release everything in comments to other articles. 🙂

[austinpop]

Chris,

 

Please take a look at https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/immersive

 

It would be good to know how this sounds.

[bbosler]

17 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Chris,

 

Please take a look at https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/immersive

 

It would be good to know how this sounds.

 

and not for Chris since he isn't doing video, but also will be good to know how it looks. I suspect it will be plagued by the problem noted earlier in these discussions;  where the perspective for the sound is from some centrally located seat in the hall but the video keeps zooming in on individual performers and panning about. When I tried it a while back before they announced immersive that's the issue I had with it. It is just too disconcerting for me when what I am hearing is so different from what I am seeing. I would much prefer at single camera at a fixed position that correlates with the sound. 

 

I intend to try it but my system is down for maintenance at the moment

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

Chris,

 

Please take a look at https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/immersive

 

It would be good to know how this sounds.

Funny you mention this. I'm putting the finishing touches on an article for publication tomorrow, in which I also mention this!

 

I can use the Digital Concert Hall app on my Mac Mini (M1) to play the immersive content to my system :~)

[El Guapo]

9 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I can use the Digital Concert Hall app on my Mac Mini (M1) to play the immersive content to my system :~)

Safari works, too.😁

[PeterG]

Wow--this is just so amazing in it's (your) ambition and scale.  I'm very excited for your review of the sonics after the system is optimized.

 

I understand how the Loke would be an awesome addition for a pair of TuneTots or Sabrinas.  But how can a relatively modest subwoofer pull its weight when paired with 2 Alexias and 10 Alidas?  Aren't we at the equivalent of 15-20 TuneTots here?  Are you concerned that the subwoofer impact will not be sufficient?

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, PeterG said:

Wow--this is just so amazing in it's (your) ambition and scale.  I'm very excited for your review of the sonics after the system is optimized.

 

I understand how the Loke would be an awesome addition for a pair of TuneTots or Sabrinas.  But how can a relatively modest subwoofer pull its weight when paired with 2 Alexias and 10 Alidas?  Aren't we at the equivalent of 15-20 TuneTots here?  Are you concerned that the subwoofer impact will not be sufficient?

Wait till you see the measurements. I think your concerns will be alleviated :~)

[The Computer Audiophile]

Also, LFE is the least used channel for Atmos music. This is because the LFE channel is sometimes gone on systems. Mixing engineers are told to not put anything in the LFE that they aren’t afraid to lose.