The High End Turntable Thread

[MarcelNL]

Just now, Iving said:

 

please share more when you can

That will be a while, it will involve loads of steel (chokes and transformers) and 2 tubes and a passive adaptable 'riaa' network but we just started and the difficulty lies in getting the curves right with minimal components.

[Rikard]

19 hours ago, Confused said:

I bought mine in 2014. At the time there was a discount deal for the Ortofon Cadenza Black if bought with the Signature TT.

 

The turntable, Cadenza Black, plus a spare head shell was £8k as a package.

Since 2014, you have maintained it very well. I think the price is pretty reasonable considering the package that came with it. 

[Confused]

On 5/26/2022 at 8:29 AM, Rikard said:

Since 2014, you have maintained it very well. I think the price is pretty reasonable considering the package that came with it. 

As a bit of turntable pricing trivia.

 

I visited Oxford Audio in 2014, not to look at turntables but for another reason. They had just taken delivery of one of the first Pro-Ject Signatures to arrive in the UK. (Their shop is just up the road from the distributor, Henley Audio.)

 

After I had listened to what I had actually gone there to listen to, they asked if I wanted to listen to Pro-Ject's new TT. I listened to it for about half an hour and really enjoyed it, nice looking TT I thought, and it sounds great. It was running a Cadenza Black. (Henley Audio are also Ortofon distributors)

 

I asked how much it was. The answer was £10,000, and the Cadenza Black is £1750, so just under £12K all in.

 

Driving home I recall thinking; that was a very nice TT, but £12k for a Pro-Ject?

 

It was only a few months later that the price was dropped to £7000, with the option of including the Candenza Black for £1000.

 

I guess there is a limit to what you can sell a TT for if it has a Pro-Ject badge.

[Confused]

And here is a problem with high mass turntables, they are high mass:

 

 

 

[Confused]

I mentioned earlier that there was a bit of a story as to why I have a Cadenza Bronze, here is that story:

 

I bought the Proj-Ject TT with a Cadenza Black, and very happy with it I was too.

 

One day I was listening to an original 70's copy of AC/DC's "If you want blood", it did not sound very good.  I listened to one side, then one track on the next side, and concluded that it was a terrible copy.  Looking at the condition of the record, it actually did not look too bad, but anyway, I moved on to another record.  This one did not play, the needle just very gently skated across the record.  Oh dear!  I checked the settings on the turntable, tracking weight, the anti-skate mechanism and so on.  Everything was perfect.  I removed the cartridge and checked with a magnifying glass, and as far as I could tell, the stylus had lost it's tip.

 

I contacted my dealer who advised that if I sent the cartridge back to them, they would get it inspected by the UK importer Henley Audio.

 

Two pictures below, both taken with a microscope, the first is a new Cadenza Black, the second is mine, as taken at Henley Audio.

 

 

 

The cantilever on the Black is incredibly fine, and it appears that the diamond tip is simply bonded to the end of the boron cantilever.  From what I can gather, this is reckoned to be a very good design with respect to sound quality because it allows the cantilever to be just about as fine and light as is possible. It is, however, an inherently week design when compared to a more traditional approach of having the diamond tip inserted through the cantilever.  As an example, compare the Black design to the Cadenza Bronze, below:

 

 

 

The aluminium cantilever is not as fine as the boron cantilever on the Black, but the way the diamond is encapsulated into the cantilever on the Bronze means that to break it, you would need to shear the diamond, which would be pretty much impossible. With the Black, any kind of longitudinal load, say from a bit of detritus in the record groove, could easily snap the bond, as it is stressed a couple with the diamond tip acting a cantilever.

So why did my Black break? To be honest, I can only speculate. Maybe there was something in one of the grooves of a record that I played that caught the tip and stressed it? I also wonder about thermal stress. I know that the diamond tip of a stylus can run at very high temperatures, anything up to 500 degrees Fahrenheit. One thought that I have here is that I have a lot of 12" singles, and those that run at 45rpm will have a high groove speed and hence generate the highest possible temperatures. Is it possible that one too many 12" singles have caused the diamond to cantilever bond to suffer thermal fatigue? Just some thoughts and theories, I think it is impossible to know for sure. One thing I do know for sure is that the cartridge was just over four years old, and had very low hours, maybe about 200. I do not play vinyl that often, maybe one or two albums a month.  So the sudden death of the Cadenza is very annoying.

This one is quite a long story, but Henley Audio were not much help, basically saying that the cartridge must have experienced some form of trauma but did not have any manufacturing defects. So in other words, you broke it mate! It was a four year old cartridge, so it would be unreasonable to expect any kind of redress, I was not expecting a free replacement, but some kind of token concession would have been nice. I also contacted Ortofon, they were not much help either! The point is, I cannot think of a time I ever abused this cartridge, either intentionally or not. Also, I am aware that using solvent type cleaners can be damaging to this type of stylus design, and I have never used solvent cleaners. I suspect that the cartridge may have had a minor flaw that took time to become apparent, but who knows, maybe I unknowingly did something to break it. It is not possible to prove this one way or the other. Of course, Henley Audio were very clear that the cartridge had no manufacturing defects, but they can't prove that either, so it ends up just being words.

I also thought about getting the Black re-tipped, but one conclusion became clear in my mind, I want to enjoy my vinyl, and following this experience I concluded that I just do not want a cartridge with the "glued tip on the cantilever" design. I now have zero confidence in this design, and every time I played a record I would cringe and worry about the tip breaking off, and that would be no fun.  Interestingly, one cartridge tipping company I contacted said that they did not like the bonded tip design and that they had seen a number of similar failures with Cadenza Blacks.

This is the short version of what could have been a much longer post, but I am pleased to say that it does have a happy ending. Oxford Audio were very helpful with this matter and ultimately came up with a reasonably good deal to PX my broken Black for a nice new Cadenza Bronze. I was very tempted to switch brands after this experience, but I have heard the Bronze in comparison to the Black a system almost identical to my own. This was during one of Ortofon's cartridge demonstration events, during which I concluded that I quite liked the Bronze. The Bronze does not quite have the hyper detail of the Black, but it is very coherent and listenable, so yes, a small step back, but I think the Bronze actually suits my varied collection of old and mixed condition vinyl very well. I have been very happy indeed with it. The Bronze is now about the same age the Black was when it committed hari kari, so here's hoping it does not do the same thing!

[davide256]

@Confused one of my earliest jobs was selling replacements for  worn/broken stylii

 

1) the cheapest stylii are usually aluminum cantilevers with an elliptical stylus, mounted on a solder bushing. 50/50 whether these last a normal life

or separate from the solder bushing

2) nude mounted was next step up, basically  a hole through the cantilever that the stylus was pushed through and epoxied in place. Audio Technica in the 80's

   did a good job with these by cutting a square base before the stylus tip was shaped, allowed more precise orientation. Rare to see a nude mounted stylus

   that had fallen out of the cantilever

3) geometry other than elliptical was the next step up, as increasing vertical contact ( with limits) improved stability on worn records. But too long a contact

   created VTA challenges and a "broom sweeping" effect

4) exotic metal cantilevers can help transient response, reduce cantilever resonance. but brittleness makes them suspect for other than high compliance cartridges

 

 

 

[Confused]

On 5/28/2022 at 10:02 PM, davide256 said:

@Confused one of my earliest jobs was selling replacements for  worn/broken stylii

 

1) the cheapest stylii are usually aluminum cantilevers with an elliptical stylus, mounted on a solder bushing. 50/50 whether these last a normal life

or separate from the solder bushing

2) nude mounted was next step up, basically  a hole through the cantilever that the stylus was pushed through and epoxied in place. Audio Technica in the 80's

   did a good job with these by cutting a square base before the stylus tip was shaped, allowed more precise orientation. Rare to see a nude mounted stylus

   that had fallen out of the cantilever

3) geometry other than elliptical was the next step up, as increasing vertical contact ( with limits) improved stability on worn records. But too long a contact

   created VTA challenges and a "broom sweeping" effect

4) exotic metal cantilevers can help transient response, reduce cantilever resonance. but brittleness makes them suspect for other than high compliance cartridges

 

 

 

An interesting summary.

 

Out of curiosity, do you know what type of adhesive is typically used for deigns where the stylus is bonded to the end of the cantilever?

[MarcelNL]

Cactus needles are also in use as cantilever, read that folks DIY-ing either use cyanoacrylate or plain PVA glue coated with nail varnish.

dauntingly small work at 30times magnification the cantilever scoots out of focus or field of vision (or both) real fast

[Calvin & Hobbes]

One question for you might also be what qualities of music reproduction do you value most. I've recently listened to an AMG Giro & also heard a Rega Planar 10 again but with a Hana ML cartridge mounted instead of a more typical Rega cartridge. Both tables were good, but different in their sound signatures.

[Rexp]

On 5/28/2022 at 7:28 PM, Confused said:

And here is a problem with high mass turntables, they are high mass:

 

 

 

Arthur Khoubesserian says no need for high mass turntables in this entertaining clip 13.50 in:

 

 

[AudioDoctor]

I have the new SL1200G and a great cartridge. I look at the SP-10R and SP1000R and think, how much better can they really be? 

 

Really, an SP-10R with a custom plinth and 2 or 3 tonearms and cartridges could end up costing an awful lot of money. How much return on investment in terms of sound quality improvements is there with something like that?

[GregWormald]

2 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

I have the new SL1200G and a great cartridge. I look at the SP-10R and SP1000R and think, how much better can they really be? 

 

Really, an SP-10R with a custom plinth and 2 or 3 tonearms and cartridges could end up costing an awful lot of money. How much return on investment in terms of sound quality improvements is there with something like that?

The "Law of Diminishing Returns" ensures that the improved sound quality in no way matches the increased spend.

 

Of course the increased spend and SQ may be balanced by a much greater subjective enjoyment. For instance  just over 7 months ago I increased my spend on active speakers by 7.33 times and my pre-amps by about 9 times (neither adjusted for inflation) and got a guesstimate SQ increase of somewhere between 15 and 30%. The SE (subjective enjoyment) increased much more than that—enough to have me going through my collections of LPs, CDs and computer-based files (4500+ albums all up) and avidly enjoying the listening all over again.

[davide256]

It’s all about vibration control / damping in the turntable and resonance damping in the tonearm. Neither of these requires high mass, but do require competent materials science engineering

[Rexp]

20 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

I have the new SL1200G and a great cartridge. I look at the SP-10R and SP1000R and think, how much better can they really be? 

 

Really, an SP-10R with a custom plinth and 2 or 3 tonearms and cartridges could end up costing an awful lot of money. How much return on investment in terms of sound quality improvements is there with something like that?

Some folks use a different arm, if you can find a dealer to demonstrate, I'd try that first.

[AudioDoctor]

1 hour ago, Rexp said:

Some folks use a different arm, if you can find a dealer to demonstrate, I'd try that first.

 

Can I put a different arm on the SL1200G?

[AudioDoctor]

19 hours ago, GregWormald said:

The "Law of Diminishing Returns" ensures that the improved sound quality in no way matches the increased spend.

 

 

This is a universal truth in audio.

[Rexp]

28 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

Can I put a different arm on the SL1200G?

https://ammonite-audio.co.uk/is-it-worth-upgrading-the-new-technics-sl-1200gr-turntable/

 

[AudioDoctor]

53 minutes ago, Rexp said:

https://ammonite-audio.co.uk/is-it-worth-upgrading-the-new-technics-sl-1200gr-turntable/

 

 

I was unaware, thank you.

 

edit: Looks like there is only one option left for a tonearm though.  https://www.stereonet.com/uk/news/sme-leaves-the-tonearm-business

[Confused]

On 6/4/2022 at 4:19 AM, Rexp said:

Arthur Khoubesserian says no need for high mass turntables in this entertaining clip 13.50 in:

I would agree that there is no need for high mass turntables. That said, until you get to the stratospherically expensive turntables any turntable is going to be subject to certain compromises and design decisions. I would not say that "man who sells a £70K low mass turntable states that you don't need high mass" is exactly the last word on the topic.

 

From a personal perspective, when I last purchased a turntable I arranged auditions of a range of turntables, all with the same system (Devialet / Kef Blade) and all running an Ortofon Cadenza Black cartridge. I used a range of records that were representative of what I would want to play on the turntable. I ended up buying the Pro-Ject Signature not because it was high mass, but because it was clearly the one that I enjoyed listing to the most. I was very lucky that I was able to arrange such a demonstration, but even so I there were other TT's that I would have liked to have listened to but did not have the opportunity.

 

Those that I tried included the Rega P10, a top spec Roxan Xerxes, Michele Orb with SME V and the Pro-Ject Signature 10 and 12.

 

This was quite an enlightening experience. Some might think that the cartridge is the dominant factor dictating the resulting sound, but the differences between the above turntables, all running the Cadenza Black, was clear to hear. I am also quite sure that others listening to the same selection of turntables would have made a different choice to myself, they were all good and each had their strengths.

 

As an aside, I also have a Rega RP25 anniversary, which is currently sat unused in a spare room with a very dead cartridge. (I guess this is far more at the low ass end of the spectrum) When I have a bit more free time I think that I will bring this back into use, just for fun and a bit of variety.

[Confused]

I have another turntable lurking in the house. A Technics SL-7.

 

Technically speaking, the Technics is not mine. I have a whole stack of records and this turntable, all items that my brother dumped at my house during a time he was moving between London and Toronto. In the end he emigrated to Canada and the turntable and records are still with me. (including a small number of inherited 78's!) A while back he told me that he has all recordings he wants on CD, and the records will likely be with me forever.

 

The SL-7 has been stuck on a shelf in a spare room for very many years. I always had it in my head that the SL-7 is not a particularly good turntable, so the poor thing has sat there ignored. Recently I stumbled across this:

 

https://www.hifinews.com/content/technics-sl-10-turntable

 

This article made me wonder if the little TT might be worth investigating. From reading above it looks like it might be a lot better than I had previously imagined.

 

This morning I connected it up to give it a try, just to see if it still works. Well it does work, a bit a least. Although it clearly needs some love and attention as it was playing for a bit then skipping. Basically the linear tracking arm does not track. Plus I cannot work out what the cartridge is, more investigation needed here.

 

Whilst it was playing it sounded OK, if a little dull and "thick", I was guessing the cartridge settings, which is obviously not ideal, and I suspect the stylus is "end of life".

 

So it needs a service, probably a cartridge / stylus replacement, but it has potential. I do not really have the time for turntable fettling at the moment, but I will keep it safe for when I do. (or maybe I'll pass it on to someone, who knows) An interesting thing at least. In terms of high / low mass, it is also surprisingly heavy for what it is.