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Why you can't trust measurements


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  • 3 months later...
55 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Yes, silly of me to be annoyed by the seemingly obligatory put down of people who produce tweaks - who are supposedly always doing for the money, as compared to having a belief in the value of their product.

 

“Stupidity is a more dangerous enemy of the good than malice. One may protest against evil; it can be exposed and, if need be, prevented by use of force. Evil always carries within itself the germ of its own subversion in that it leaves behind in human beings at least a sense of unease. Against stupidity we are defenseless. Neither protests nor the use of force accomplish anything here; reasons fall on deaf ears; facts that contradict one’s prejudgment simply need not be believed – in such moments the stupid person even becomes critical – and when facts are irrefutable they are just pushed aside as inconsequential, as incidental. In all this the stupid person, in contrast to the malicious one, is utterly self satisfied and, being easily irritated, becomes dangerous by going on the attack. For that reason, greater caution is called for when dealing with a stupid person than with a malicious one. Never again will we try to persuade the stupid person with reasons, for it is senseless and dangerous.”

 

Dietrich Bonhoeffer

 

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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58 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Groupthink is everywhere, in audio. Anyone who strays from the narrow thinking of the two fraternities, objectivists and subjectivists, is usually hounded out from the area, because the variation from the mindset of the majority there makes too many people uncomfortable - it can't be allowed to remain!

 

 

This is a convenient way to you to blame others for a situation of your own making. 

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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2 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

"In the zone" may be subjective to you, but not to me. IME, this occurs when the signature of the playback rig becomes effectively inaudible; and you are only consciously aware of the characteristics of the recording. And many high end rigs fail badly in this regard.

 

 

This is a highly subjective measure of SQ as proven by the fact that few agree with the (subjective) conclusion you have reached (sentence in bold).

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

Okay, if I listen to a couple of high end rigs, playing a specific recording, that I know well, and:

 

1) Their presentation of that is very different from each other, and very much from what I know of it

 

2) Each makes various aspects of that recording unpleasant, or sound downright distorted

 

3) Both miss making quite a few sound elements audible, or if they can be detected, they are very muffled and indistinct; lack being able to separate those parts of the mix from the whole

 

4) Completely fail to be able to throw up a convincing soundstage, with the sound elements clearly delineated within the whole

 

What conclusion should I come to?

 

You can continue to play "schematics" all you want but articulating the reasons for an opinion doesn't make it any less subjective...

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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21 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Objective is being able to discern distortion in some playback occurring, hear specific things that the replay is getting wrong. Subjective is either liking the type of distortion or artifacts you hear, or finding it unpleasant. Okay ... ?

 

I would consider anything that can't be measured to be subjective.

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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25 minutes ago, fas42 said:

If some nasty god started, slowly, making the red spectrum of traffic lights move towards green; and the green towards red, then at some point terrible accidents would start happening. Nothing fundamentally has changed, merely the degree of "obviousness" of the situation.

 

Perhaps you've forgotten that orange and yellow lie between red and green on the visible light spectrum, making a seamless transition from red to green somewhat difficult to accomplish...

 

the-visible-light-spectrum-2699036_FINAL2-c0b0ee6f82764efdb62a1af9b9525050.thumb.png.941e184665f7618ea66032fb7760983d.png

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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2 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Doesn't have to be seamless - all it needs is that a combination of factors, "in the heat of the moment", makes someone believe that the red light is actually showing green- it's a decision, is the light red, or green? Is the audio system I'm listening to, audibly distorting or not?

 

That's why these observations are subjective... 👺

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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10 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Likewise objective data, using an appropriate metric, would find excessive distortion of a certain type in the playback. 

 

 

No, you believe (subjectively) that it would.

 

And you may be right...

 

Or you may be wrong.

 

Also, "excessive" is subjective. What you find excessive, may not bother others at all.

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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17 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Which brings us back to, "why you can't trust measurements" ... what use is acquiring a set of numbers, if it's almost of no value in deciding whether a particular component will be acceptable or not, in the flesh?

 

 

Yes, using an objective tool for a subjective criteria like acceptability makes little sense... 

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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19 minutes ago, fas42 said:

I've experienced the bizarre world of audiophile double think for too long, with regard to what they focus on when they listen, to be fussed about where they want to draw the line on the concept of "being objective" - if you're happy with your take on the matter, then all's good with the world ... ^_^.

 

Posts like this beg the question why you spend so much time and energy posting to a forum full of folks you consider to be bizarre... and vice versa...

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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