Why you can't trust measurements

[PeterG]

41 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

It seems that some technical threads at 'ASR' quickly get emotional.  Rather than discussing different viewpoints and 'best engineering practices' , the threads turn into I was right and you were wrong arguments.

 

Yes.  This is especially ironic since the real value of a audiophile forum is learning things that you did not know, i.e. someone showing you that you were wrong...

[PeterG]

16 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

So there's some delusion in objectivity?  Or is it envy?  Or both?

No question that certain objectivists' posts indicate envy/resentment and also confuse best sound with best bang for the buck.  But it's not quite fair to assert that there is delusion in objectivity any more than it is fair to paint subjectivists with blanket statements.

[PeterG]

7 hours ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Just trying to better understand the concept of "they're objectvists because they can't afford good kit like the rest of us"  To me, it seems like a permutation of "your system isn't resolving enough".

 

Haha--I do not like the elitist tone you refer to, but I have to confess, I do think that certain systems are not resolving enough to hear certain differences.  I have two systems--one is NAD and B&W CM-1 (about $2000 between them), the other is McIntosh and Wilson (about $25,000 between them).  My Bluesound Node 2i streamer is fine on the first system, not worth listening to on the second.  The first system is not resolving enough to tell the difference.

 

I don't really like the classist references in either direction.  There are plenty of audiophile choices between $2,000 and $200,000.  I think all of us should be able to appreciate good systems at all price levels for what they are, not dissing them for what they are not.

[PeterG]

18 hours ago, firedog said:

The recent extremely positive reviews of the Topping DAC (Absolute Sound, subjective only) and and Pre (Stereophile, subjective plus measurements) in which there was agreement that the two under $1000 pieces were as good SQ wise (and for the pre, measurement wise) as pretty much anything on the market in their segment is telling: Even the mainstream publications are feeling the pressure from the market to review such relatively inexpensive devices that measure as state of the art. Once upon a time, neither of those publications would review such products, as they don't have dealer networks and are only available online.

 

I found the Topping DAC review deeply disappointing, even disturbing, from a publication I have often relied upon.  They did indeed assert the SQ was "reference level".  But then the only comparison offered was to a $600 DAC, and then concluded that you might go either way.  So these are two world-beaters at less than $1000?  It also bothered me that they repeated the no euphonics chant numerous times, almost as if to hedge their assertion--I am not aware of any euphoric reference level DACs.  This was very different than a few years ago when a number of publications asserted the Yggy was better than anything up to $X in price or something like that--it was much less credible.

 

Similarly, the Absolute Sound rave review of the B&W 805 D4 seemed to evade the near universal question around the 800 series--too much treble?

 

I'm not big on measurements in general, but they sure would have helped ground both of these discussions

[PeterG]

16 hours ago, firedog said:

 I think that yes, Steven Stone was basically saying the sound was reference level. The impressive thing to me was that he did blind testing of the two DACs, and he also used his own master recordings of acoustic music, which he obviously knows very well. He said they sounded exactly as they should. I think that's a pretty impressive recommendation. I haven't heard the Topping DAC, but if I was in the market to spend that kind of money and couldn't audition, that to me would be a serious recommendation.

 

The pre and DAC have measurements elsewhere (ASR, Stereophile, and a couple of other places).

 

I disagree--Stone provided virtually no substantiation for his assertion that the Topping is reference level.  As you note, there were no measurements. (I'm OK with that)  Worse, there were no meaningful comparisons--a $600 Gustard?  Please, be serious.  Who's even heard of Gustard?  Also--"sounded exactly as they should"--what does that even mean?  Compared to what?

 

Compare this with Chris's  much more meaningful substantiation of his assertion that the Yggy is top shelf, from the AS (CA) 2015 review--" It's one of my favorite DACs available today. In fact, I will happily mention the Yggdrasil in the same sentence as some of my other favorites, the Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC RS ($16,000) and the EMM Labs DAC2X ($15,500)"

 

When I read that the Topping compares favorably to the Yggy, Berkeley, EMM, Lampizator, Bartok..., then I'll be impressed

[PeterG]

59 minutes ago, opus101 said:

 

I severely doubt you'll ever read such a thing in an advertiser-funded magazine. Which is of course the 800lb gorilla in the room.

 

It's your lucky day! 

 

Here's Absolute Sound with a similar Yggy review to CA--"I can’t tell you how Moffatt did it, but I can describe how the Yggy sounds, and why its one of the three best DACs I’ve heard regardless of price. (The other two are the $19,500 Berkeley Alpha Reference and the $35,000 dCS Vivaldi. I suspect that the MSB Select is outstanding, after hearing it many times at shows, but I haven’t evaluated it in my own system.)"

[PeterG]

7 hours ago, firedog said:

You are arguing with yourself. Of course he didn't - it's a subjective review, just like 99% of audio reviews. Gustard is a pretty well known brand, with some highly regarded PRO and consumer devices. That YOU haven't heard of them doesn't mean much. It's common to compare similar items in a hi-fi review. That's what Stone did. 

 

Meaningful comparisons? What do think is meaningful? He compared it to another under $1000 DAC under blind conditions - rarely done in the audiophile reviewing world.

 

He played back his own master recordings. "Sounded exactly as they should" - the meaning is totally clear, except if you are making a special effort not to understand the sentence. If you make your own recording, you know exactly how it "should" sound. And he said the DAC did exactly that level of reproduction. Maybe he should have phrased it differently so it would be phrased the way you'd like it to be.

 

In the end, it's a subjective review. If you think it's worthless, don't read it. IMO it was more substantial and more seriously done than virtually all other subjective reviews of audio equipment we commonly see. 

 

I am not arguing with myself--I am expressing disappointment that a reviewer from a well respected publication asserted that a DAC was "reference" level and then did not substantiate his claim with significant objective or subjective support.   A good subjective review that included such glowing SQ assessment would have compared the Topping to one or two reference level DACs (ie DACs widely reviewed as audiophile leaders), as both Absolute Sound and The Computer Audiophile did when they claimed the Yggy was stellar.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PeterG]

On 8/1/2022 at 3:26 AM, Confused said:

In my experience, when I tell most people that I am an Audiophile, they mostly tend to respond with something along the lines of "oh, I could never tell the difference between speakers or amplifiers or anything", or maybe they might say "do you like to listen to jazz then?" In general, I find that most people are mostly not remotely interested.

 

But when you play music they enjoy on what is probably the best system they've ever experienced, they smile, don't they?

 

My family laughs at me regularly about audiophile stuff, but they also really enjoy the sound.  I played Taylor swift for my daughter a few weeks ago--her mind was blown on how much more she could hear 😊

[PeterG]

On 8/1/2022 at 3:26 AM, Confused said:

In my experience, when I tell most people that I am an Audiophile, they mostly tend to respond with something along the lines of "oh, I could never tell the difference between speakers or amplifiers or anything", or maybe they might say "do you like to listen to jazz then?" In general, I find that most people are mostly not remotely interested.

 

But when you play music they enjoy on what is probably the best system they've ever experienced, they smile, don't they?

 

My family laughs at me regularly about audiophile stuff, but they also really enjoy the sound.  I played Taylor swift for my daughter a few weeks ago--her mind was blown on how much more she could hear 😊