Why you can't trust measurements

[botrytis]

One needs both to make decisions. One cannot really make well-informed ones without it.

 

I don't care if people look at measurements or not, one just needs to understand it is easy to fool the human mind.

 

Thanks @GoldenOne

[botrytis]

25 minutes ago, GregWormald said:

Hey Frank, the Harbour bridge isn't for sale, it's mine! Quit trying to con people.

 

We can sell him some beach front property in Arizona though 🤣

[botrytis]

19 minutes ago, GregWormald said:

See, measurements. It depends on whether "beach front property" is about the sand, or the water.

 

Sand of course 😁

 

[botrytis]

Well, unfortunately, The gent has really turned into a snake oil salesman.

 

PS Audio makes some decent products, others not so decent,

[botrytis]

4 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

So perhaps a better title would be "Why you can't trust audio measurements that are not well documented". Everything in the video speaks to the differences in setup and configuration of the test. As long as these are properly documented, there's no reason to not trust the measurements as they can then be reproduced by others. The only reason to question well-documented measurements is if someone else gets a significantly different result with the same configuration.

 

Or if someone has such an expensive testing rig that no one else can afford....

[botrytis]

Well, Kippel rigs are 100K for the basic one and go up from there.

 

I don't have 30K IN ALL THE AUDIO EQUIPMENT I OWN. I could buy my next car for 30K - just me (mine is a 2007 and my wife's is a 2001). 

[botrytis]

7 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Forget that new car, or a new house, just get the Klippel analyzer ;)

 

 

Yeah, I want to get kicked out of my house. My wife would say something, and it won't be pretty....

 

[botrytis]

29 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

I hear you! But you have to have priorities in life. A house + wife vs Klipple… it’s a tough decision!

 

It is a no brainer to me. I have been married 35 years to the same wonderful, considerate soul. She puts up with my foibles, so I am very lucky, to say the least. AND SHE LIKES AUDIO!

[botrytis]

4 minutes ago, fas42 said:

It's curious how some people don't trust their ears, believe they are of such poor quality as a means of registering what's going on that they constantly run to a piece of equipment, to justify some stance on the audio equipment game.

 

Personally, what I have found intensely satisfying over the decades, is seeing how a particular setup can steadily be pushed, evolved, to slowly eliminate its unrefined personality to the point where that of the recording starts to take over. The music event that was captured, which is now effectively eternal, just bides its time, patiently, until its "true colours" can properly emerge - each configuration is better able to do such in some areas than others; the 'truth' of the recording is the combination of the very best that one has ever heard from a particular track, over the years of experiencing it on many setups and situations. This builds into a memory of the musical performance - and when one gets very close to the essence of what's in the source, the jolt of recognising all the little giveaways that you picked up over the years is similar to meeting someone you knew extremely well some years ago, but hadn't come across for a long time in between. The familiarity with what's on the recording is one of the pleasures of getting the SQ right - and this where conventional measurements are nowhere near good enough to do the job of determining the, 'accuracy' ...

 

 

 

Human ears are poor quality, compared to dogs and other species. Humans are a vision and tactile centric species.

[botrytis]

I have no idea what 'crazy uncle Frank' is talking about.

[botrytis]

29 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

And no dog I know can do that! That proves it: human ears are better.

 

 

You would be amazed. Some dogs yeowl or bark when hearing noise they don't like. Others don't care.

[botrytis]

Well, the way Amir dismissed and banned ELAC designer. Andrew Jones, speaks volume about his arrogance. Andrew Jones was nothing but a gentlemen. Jones told Amir that his measurements were done above the maximum SPL if the speakers. Also, he offered to look at the speaker and ship back to him on his coin. Amir was a ponce and banned him.

 

 

1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Josh,

 

Doctors may disagree with one another, but I still won't take advice to drink bleach to kill the virus from someone with no background in medicine. 

 

People  come to ASR to read Amir's opinion and then disagree with him and fight him on it. In reality, (and to most knowledgeable folks) Amir's opinion isn't interesting. His measurements are. And while there are those who criticise his measurements, their opinions are just as irrelevant as Amir's unless they can produce measurements that demonstrate that Amir borked his. Arguing about his "biases" or his "preferences" makes sense only if you give any weight to his opinion and subjective parts of his reviews. Personally, I don't, and have no reason to defend these. In fact, when ASR was just starting, the reviews only had measurements. Readers insisted that Amir give his opinion and his subjective reviews. So, now, here we are, discussing opinions which are not objective, not scientific, and unimportant.

 

I disagree that we are completely helpless and can't reproduce any of Amir's measurements at home without major investment. Investment in time and learning, yes, but not necessarily money. I've been doing this for years, and others have done, as well. It takes a little ingenuity and the desire to find things out for yourself. But then, there are many others that would rather be told what to think and what to like. While I can understand their motivation, such as lack of time, or lack of interest, I find it much more less acceptable to be told to drink bleach by someone -- I'd much rather have science and measurements presented to me to make up my own mind than to listen to an opinion of someone "in authority".

 

You can see people disagreeing with Amir in nearly every review thread. Few have facts, most have opinions. Of course, I'd also like to have more independent measurements. More real information, more facts and less opinions is a very desirable outcome to my mind. Which is why I said I was disappointed when GoldenOne was banned from ASR. But, I can also understand why Amir did it and it had nothing to do with measurements or objectivism.

 

 

 

[botrytis]

It was sanitized for sure. If you read the rules of that forum, one rule is like do not argue with the owner of the forum. No questioning is allowed.

 

I was on another forum, since 2003, and had about 32-35K posts. I was banned because one mod didn't like my posts. He banned me and also erased all of my posts. It was like I never existed. I was happy to walk away from that forum. It was another Audio forum.

[botrytis]

1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

Now we just need to ask the developer of the AS forum software to increase the number of bits used to store the message counter.  Just in case the storage capabilities catch up in the near future:)

 

OH, come on now. Not that bad......

 

100 TB SSD Price

 

NOT THAT BAD 🤣

[botrytis]

On 5/12/2022 at 1:06 AM, Windows X said:

You already know measurement is the best selling point for budget product. And people who can buy only budget gears need to convince themselves they buy best bang of the buck product having measurements superior to more expensive product. If you try to crash their foundation of their belief, they will treat your content as heresay.

 

From my years long debate with such people, it's better to leave them alone in their comfort zone. They will never change their mindset until they're rich enough to afford better things. Truth is it's never about objective VS subjective but rich VS poor under audio terminology. Just enjoy with what you have and people can be happy with different things.

 

What nonsense.

 

Some people react, others care not one wit.

 

Use what you like. I don't judge. I mean a Yugo gets you to the same place as does a Brand-new Ferrari. They both get the job done.

 

I still believe, one needs both measurements and listening. W/O that it is too much decision making based on emotion.

[botrytis]

5 hours ago, Windows X said:

 

Nonsense? I saw a lot of objectivists who's been through exactly like I said. Some even told me his regrets. I also believe there's audiophiles using both objective and subjective data to make decision. But budget gear's best selling point is still about measurements. That's the only thing you can claim you're doing this better than more expensive things "objectively". ;)

 

Really - one needs both. One cannot make an honest opinion without objective measurements. Subjective data means nothing, because so many of the reviewers are older than me and have worse ears than me. I cannot use their ears and have their background which affect how they hear things. Subjective data is NEVER used in science as it is hard to prove a negative.

 

My wife and I just bought a new piece of equipment, based on measurements and then a trial in our home. The dealer was great, and he basically said, take it home and listen, if it is not an immediate difference bring it back. 

[botrytis]

26 minutes ago, Windows X said:

Is this considered objective? I also have urge to change MUSES03 in Esoteric K1X with OPA627 or AD744 because I found those sounding better than MUSES03 in other highend DACs I modified before. Yeah MUSES03 has superior specs but I don't know why I can't get myself to like it wholeheartedly like good OPA627 design DAC or AD744. I guess it's similar to how people keep coming back from hires DAC chip to PCM1704.

 

Objective is measurements - you are being subjective here. 

[botrytis]

2 minutes ago, Windows X said:

 

It's not determination but I can't find less expensive gears that sound better. I mean I know some good gears are better than some others at cheaper price. But it's hard to find such things again and again. At some point you can see the top of food chain having like $30k DAC for flagship, $100k speakers for common flagship speakers. Well, some went beyond like $1m speakers too.

 

 

And what about reading product's specifications and checking internal parts then read datasheet about it?

 

It is not hard to find good sounding inexpensive equipment. Just look at my system. You are either not looking hard enough or are sticking your nose in the air and ignoring. 

[botrytis]

1 minute ago, Windows X said:

 

Yeah. MUSES03 won objective measurements but lose to my subjective opinions after trying that in a few units. Let's think of it this way. Some DACs have filters to choose like fast roll off and slow roll off features. Sure some objectivists can claim more important parts of one is considered better than another objectively. Maybe MUSES03 has some they prefer on that part. But some specs on others maybe better than MUSES03 and it's unpopular opinion on that objective side. Who knows.

 

Anyway, you guys make it sounds like if I think this one is better than that one objectively from my observation, it must sound better?

 

That is why both are important. Just because something measure well, doesn't mean it will work well with your equipment.

[botrytis]

1 hour ago, Windows X said:

OK I look into your gears and I can see objectively better choice but can't be cheaper for most parts but I guess I can find some.

 

1. AMD A10? That's very noise processor and I also have laptop with that processor too. I'd say Intel Celeron/Atom/i3 will sound cleaner due to less EMI and noise from processor itself. Yeah you can buy cheaper computer that sounds better. Please don't use AMD processor for audiophile PC. I have a few clients asking to transfer license and came back after testing new AMD and back to Intel.

 

2. TEAC UD-501 is good value but UD-503 is objectively better, way better for little price increment. Maybe if you can find some good deals or good used price, yeah it can sound better than new UD-501 bought at full price. And Esoteric which is also from Teac but highend division will sound way way better at very high price.

 

3. If you use Rotel RC-1590 as preamplfier only, get preamp only product at the same price should sound better because at least it can save ~$100-200 of production cost on DAC circuit and greatly reduce noise from digital circuit to interfere analogue circuit board. I guess finding good new preamp is hard for this price range. I'd rather get integrated than buying preamp below $5k personally. Maybe you can some good used preamp instead?

 

4. I'd take any second hand good Threshold amplifier over Benchmark AHB2 amplifier, period. But for new amps to sound better, maybe Anthem would be OK? I'm not sure if that will fit your subjective tests but yeah it can be objectively better upgrade.

 

5. And I'd say any speakers around the same price as Revel can be objectively better also. New Audio Physic model doesn't sound bad. Maybe PMC or Fischer which can perform quite well for less expensive upgrade.

 

Well, I did try as you asked. I guess the only audio equipment I can find better at cheaper for real would be your amplifier and your speakers. As I told you before, it's hard to find good upgrade at cheaper price. Otherwise we all will ended up being budget audiophiles as things keep being better but cheaper. ;)

That has changed and the A10 is not a noisy APU. I bought the Rotel to use in our front room system but my wife wants a simpler system. 

 

Everyone has different ears and what you think is better, I may not. I have gone through plenty of speakers and, to me, the Revels beat the pants off, in my subjective opinion, others like PMC. Audio Physics is not sold in the area, I live in, so I deal with what I can get and afford. Not crazy of the Audio Physics I have heard, same with PMC.

 

I WILL NOT BUY ANY DAC THAT SUPPORTS mQ-Anon so the 503 is out. I like my 501.

 

That is the point of this hobby, everyone has different likes and dislikes.

[botrytis]

7

50 minutes ago, Windows X said:

 

A10 is noisy. I have it and compared to Atom/Celeron myself. I'm also AMD fan but for audiophile purposes, please don't use it.

 

And who asks about subjective opinions here? No one. We're talking about objective selection for better and cheaper right? Revel tried to get good FR at the expense of coherency and others. PMC makes good transmission line and excels above Revel in different aspects.

 

As for MQ-Anon, it's just an optional decoding filter and it won't affect your DAC at all if you don't use MQA source. Also, UD-503 doesn't have MQA. It's NT-505 model. But if you hate MQA to the bones, you should ban all products from company supporting MQA and buy others that don't support MQA.

 

Now can you see some underlying pattern here? Products around same price will have something better or something worse in measurements. I can claim PMC is better speakers than Revel because it has better bass response and coherent sound. They you will disagree with your subjective opinion and claim it has better frequency response from graph which is closer to ideals. Sounds like objective? No. This is about using objective data to backup subjective opinion.

 

Measurements don't seem to really tell us what is better they come with different ups and downs and only reviewers can lead our noses to pick what we seem to agree with in ASR? Nah I'm gonna pass that as GoldenOne stated in his video. I love reading specifications and measurements data but they're all advertising when companies start using measurements as tools to advertise their products.

 

And no matter how hard you look and how into this objectively, at the end of the day, you can't win your wife objectively and need to settle down with WAF. So audiophiles shouldn't take this objectivist quest too serious and prioritize more on subjective aspects like WAF for example.

 

I don't want to pay extra for something I won't use, like mQa. I refuse.

 

You don't know my wife, so don't ass-u-me you know what she will do. 

 

I will agree to disagree with you.

 

[botrytis]

Maybe it is more along the lines of this paper. It applies to many thinks taken to religious extremes....

 

 

nihms868078.pdf

[botrytis]

1 minute ago, fas42 said:

 

"In the zone" may be subjective to you, but not to me. IME, this occurs when the signature of the playback rig becomes effectively inaudible; and you are only consciously aware of the characteristics of the recording. And many high end rigs fail badly in this regard. To put it into context, a CD I bought over 30 years ago will present identically in all the key areas, on my current setup, as compared to what I used back then, which was radically different in its make up ... if either have any pretensions to accuracy, how can it be any other result?

 

Of course measurements are critical when designing and assembling components to sell; consistency, and weeding out the faulty, are essential here. But until more revealing metrics are readily available to the consumer, then the whole thing is a lottery; as an example, if you were given what was typically measured for a modern DAC, and no identifying information, would you have any idea whether it was a winner, or something most audiophiles would get rid of as fast as possible?

 

Stop playing schematics here, Frank. That is all you are doing. 

[botrytis]

You can't something is subjective when most everyone else say it is objective. 

[botrytis]

38 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Logic 101 ... I've met some audiophiles who had bizarre thinking; therefore, all audiophiles have bizarre thinking ...

 

Luckily, in the presence of exceptional SQ there seems to be general agreement that it's at least acceptable - the frothing at the mouth normally occurs with discussions of how to get this.

🤦‍♂️ pot to kettle here 🤦