HQPlayer Embedded & Ravenna Issue

[bodiebill]

On 8/20/2022 at 1:58 PM, El Guapo said:

I once used my home network for Ravenna audio. Until one day I copied some DSD albums to my NAS while playing the music and the Ravenna audio streams distorted... really bad. So that's why I decided to get a Cisco CBS350 for Ravenna.😅

 

It was a long day playing around with several routers and switches... However in the dual Linux/Widows setup I cannot get rid of crackles and dropouts even without activity other than audio playback. So I am seriously considering the CBS350 you recommend. My network experience is limited though, and before buying it I would appreciate a summary of how to set this up with HQPE and Ravenna on one PC (Linux) and MAD and Aneman on another (Windows). I assume there will be 2 VLAN's? How would these be used? What would be on which VLAN? Would I use both NIC's on the PC with Ravenna ALSA as I did with Ravenna ASIO under Windows? On which VLAN would I access my music, for instance if I use JRiver as control point and HQPE as renderer?

[The Computer Audiophile]

14 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

 

It was a long day playing around with several routers and switches... However in the dual Linux/Widows setup I cannot get rid of crackles and dropouts even without activity other than audio playback. So I am seriously considering the CBS350 you recommend. My network experience is limited though, and before buying it I would appreciate a summary of how to set this up with HQPE and Ravenna on one PC (Linux) and MAD and Aneman on another (Windows). I assume there will be 2 VLAN's? How would these be used? What would be on which VLAN? Would I use both NIC's on the PC with Ravenna ALSA as I did with Ravenna ASIO under Windows? On which VLAN would I access my music, for instance if I use JRiver as control point and HQPE as renderer?

You may be able to just plug the switch in and everything will work without special config. I had it working on my network without any config. I switched to a dedicated switch for 12 channel at 32 bit / 352.8 kHz. 
 

I wouldn’t mess with vlans. 
 

Merging offers config info here - https://merging.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/PUBLICDOC/pages/4817447/Network+Switches+for+RAVENNA+-+AES67

[bodiebill]

13 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You may be able to just plug the switch in and everything will work without special config. I had it working on my network without any config. I switched to a dedicated switch for 12 channel at 32 bit / 352.8 kHz. 

 

'Plug in' as in plug in my current modem-router?

Do you have one or multiple networks? 

 

13 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I wouldn’t mess with vlans. 
 

Merging offers config info here - https://merging.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/PUBLICDOC/pages/4817447/Network+Switches+for+RAVENNA+-+AES67

 

Still a bit confusing to me as this is the same article I quoted above which says "RAVENNA/AES67 network should have its own VLAN and not mixed with other network types."

Just trying to understand before ordering the switch.

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, bodiebill said:

 

'Plug in' as in plug in my current modem-router?

Do you have one or multiple networks? 

 

 

Still a bit confusing to me as this is the same article I quoted above which says "RAVENNA/AES67 network should have its own VLAN and not mixed with other network types."

Just trying to understand before ordering the switch.

My network is a bit different from most. You should be able to connect the switch to your router and have it work. 
 

Keep in mind that Merging is specifying what it recommends in a studio or venue where it’s critical that a massive number of high resolution channels works perfectly. 
 

Unicast makes life pretty easy. Two channels make life pretty easy. 
 

I had Ravenna working with just a good switch and no special configuration. 

[Miska]

7 hours ago, bodiebill said:

I replaced my Zyxel modem-router by an Asus RT-N66U, upgraded its firmware, defined some QoS rules in favor of Ravenna and turned of the firewall.

 

There shouldn't be any need to configure any QoS rules as long as the switch honors 802.1p / DiffServ and assigns traffic correctly into different priority queues. RAVENNA and HQPlayer NAA flag the traffic correctly to indicate type of traffic.

 

With some switches ones needs for enable 802.1p and/or 802.3x, but usually default priority queue assignments are fine.

 

Doing unicast RAVENNA (or HQPlayer NAA) for 8 channels or less, is not particularly heavy on the network. So it should work without too much trouble.

 

Did you use same NIC hardware for direct RAVENNA connection you are using for your home network? Or is there possibility that the NIC / driver is different?

[bodiebill]

15 hours ago, Miska said:

 

There shouldn't be any need to configure any QoS rules as long as the switch honors 802.1p / DiffServ and assigns traffic correctly into different priority queues. RAVENNA and HQPlayer NAA flag the traffic correctly to indicate type of traffic.

 

With some switches ones needs for enable 802.1p and/or 802.3x, but usually default priority queue assignments are fine.

 

Thanks. I ordered the Cisco switch...

 

15 hours ago, Miska said:

Doing unicast RAVENNA (or HQPlayer NAA) for 8 channels or less, is not particularly heavy on the network. So it should work without too much trouble.

 

Did you use same NIC hardware for direct RAVENNA connection you are using for your home network? Or is there possibility that the NIC / driver is different?

 

When on Windows I had good results using two different NICs on the PC, on different subnets, one on the home network and one dedicated to Hapi.

When on Linux I only use one of the NICs and everything runs on the home network, including Hapi.

My goal is to get the latter setup to play undistorted. Currently there are occasional glitches, dropouts, short electronic screaming sounds, or sometimes playback stops altogether.

 

[bodiebill]

@Miska

Something I do not understand about playing with HQPE into Ravenna...

 

With this setting there is music:

 

but with this setting no sound:

 

Any explanation?

 

I am using the more forgiving settings for testing, but aim to use the EC modulators when things have settled -- if they ever will...

[Miska]

9 hours ago, bodiebill said:

@Miska

Something I do not understand about playing with HQPE into Ravenna...

 

With this setting there is music:

 

but with this setting no sound:

 

Any explanation?

 

I am using the more forgiving settings for testing, but aim to use the EC modulators when things have settled -- if they ever will...

 

Sample rate mismatch between HQPlayer and Hapi?

 

[bodiebill]

12 hours ago, Miska said:

Sample rate mismatch between HQPlayer and Hapi?

 

Not sure. As I understand it Merging has only one setting that should work for DSD64, DSD128 and DSD256, namely 352/DXD/DSD. Not a big deal as I will go for DSD256 anyway.

[bodiebill]

On 8/21/2022 at 9:26 PM, The Computer Audiophile said:

My network is a bit different from most. You should be able to connect the switch to your router and have it work. 

 

Why not do it the way recommended by Merging? Looks easy enough with the configuration files they provide. I guess to start simple I should choose the top one? Or would a dual VPN have benefits? Reading the preceding posts I guess there may be different opinions on this.

 

 

P S Actually, I expect that the second option will not work with Ravenna ALSA on Linux and MAD/Aneman on Windows, for the same reason that the 2nd NIC cannot be used in that setup. Correct me if I am wrong.

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, bodiebill said:

 

Why not do it the way recommended by Merging? Looks easy enough with the configuration files they provide. I guess to start simple I should choose the top one? Or would a dual VPN have benefits? Reading the preceding posts I guess there may be different opinions on this.

 

 

P S Actually, I expect that the second option will not work with Ravenna ALSA on Linux and MAD/Aneman on Windows, for the same reason that the 2nd NIC cannot be used in that setup. Correct me if I am wrong.

I don’t recommend vlans unless you understand them and need them. People think they are the answer to everything, but on a home network, where you may want to use an app that won’t work if devices are on different vlans, it can be a pain. People will troubleshoot for weeks before remembering the issue is the vlans they “had” to use. 
 

Vlans are great when needed. Not so great when unneeded. 

[bodiebill]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I don’t recommend vlans unless you understand them and need them. People think they are the answer to everything, but on a home network, where you may want to use an app that won’t work if devices are on different vlans, it can be a pain. People will troubleshoot for weeks before remembering the issue is the vlans they “had” to use. 
 

Vlans are great when needed. Not so great when unneeded. 

 

OK, thanks. I will will try your method first: just plug in the Cisco switch into my router and then connect the Linux PC with the Ravenna ALSA driver and the Windows NUC with MAD & Aneman to the switch. Due tomorrow, fingers crossed...

[El Guapo]

6 hours ago, bodiebill said:

to start simple I should choose the top one?

Yes. Use the top one. The bottom one which I’m using now has incorrect description on their web: port 1-4 and 9 should be for generic ip network, port 5-8 and 10 are for Ravenna.

[Miska]

9 hours ago, bodiebill said:

P S Actually, I expect that the second option will not work with Ravenna ALSA on Linux and MAD/Aneman on Windows, for the same reason that the 2nd NIC cannot be used in that setup. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

In the latest HQPlayer OS RAVENNA build I changed network configuration such that there's no more a network bridge. Instead all interfaces are configured similar way as NAA OS, so must come up fully with DHCP. RAVENNA hooks to "eth0". If you have others, those must get configured, but are not used for RAVENNA.

 

[bodiebill]

I have had pertinent, attentive and prompt support from Merging via email. Two quotes:

 

The ASIO or the ALSA device should be placed on the Crown Icon to then be able to drive any sampling rate change.

Though I still think it could be beneficial if everything follows the S/R of the Hapi (i.e. with Hapi in the crown).

 

Unfortunately it can’t work with regular router, only managed switch are benchmarked to work with our AOIP technology.

 

[Miska]

5 hours ago, bodiebill said:

I have had pertinent, attentive and prompt support from Merging via email. Two quotes:

 

The ASIO or the ALSA device should be placed on the Crown Icon to then be able to drive any sampling rate change.

Though I still think it could be beneficial if everything follows the S/R of the Hapi (i.e. with Hapi in the crown).

 

Unfortunately it can’t work with regular router, only managed switch are benchmarked to work with our AOIP technology.

 

In any case, if necessary, you can use a NAA as regular network - RAVENNA bridge. Since NAA is designed to work on regular networks and even over WiFi.

 

[bodiebill]

7 hours ago, Miska said:

In any case, if necessary, you can use a NAA as regular network - RAVENNA bridge. Since NAA is designed to work on regular networks and even over WiFi.

 

Do you mean running NAA on a device that also has the Ravenna ALSA driver (like HQP OS or GentooPlayer) for instance like this:

JRiver as control point --> HQPE as renderer --> NAA --> Ravenna ALSA --> Hapi ?

[Miska]

39 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

Do you mean running NAA on a device that also has the Ravenna ALSA driver (like HQP OS or GentooPlayer) for instance like this:

JRiver as control point --> HQPE as renderer --> NAA --> Ravenna ALSA --> Hapi ?

 

Yes, that should work. I know some people do that on a Windows or macOS machine to avoid dealing with the Ravenna ALSA driver.

 

[bodiebill]

On 8/23/2022 at 7:35 PM, El Guapo said:

Yes. Use the top one. The bottom one which I’m using now has incorrect description on their web: port 1-4 and 9 should be for generic ip network, port 5-8 and 10 are for Ravenna.

 

Indeed that must be a mistake in the Merging instructions for switch auto-configuration as 9 and 10 are Combo ports (RJ45 or SFP), and these should be on different VLANs.

 

Still struggling here with the setup. Too early to report back but learning a lot :-)

[bodiebill]

Today I did make progress with the Cisco CBS350 switch. After just plugging it into my router, I still had hiccups and other strange behavior. Then I decided to make 2 VLANs. Merging's auto-config file gave an error when uploading, so I did it manually. There are clear instructions on the Merging website and this for me was also more educational. So now I have VLAN 1 (192.168.1.x, ports 1-4) for my normal home network and VLAN 2 (169.254.x.x, ports 6-10 incl. both SFP's) for Ravenna AES64. So far so good.

 

One thing I am still looking at is the HQPE renderer function. It worked on and off last week but since today I can no longer get it to work. The goal is to have JRiver control the renderer. An old HQPE manual mentions that in the JRiver DLNA settings I need to set the Mode to Original and the format to PCM L24 No header.

 

I find this somewhat surprising as the Original setting greys out the Format setting. Also, with these settings applying DSP in JRiver is not possible. However I got it to work like this last week. But now no longer. Could it have something to do with the subnets?

 

Cisco switch: 169.254.1.254
PC NIC1: 192.168.1.139 (internet access)
PC NIC2: 169.254.47.30 (Ravenna ALSA driver, HQPE)
NUC ethernet: 169.254.218.196 (MAD and Aneman)
NUC WiFi: 192.168.1.116 (internet access)
Hapi: 169.254.20.202

 

JRiver shows the HQPE renderer as being on 169.254.47.30:

 

 

Upon Play:

[bodiebill]

I may have found the answer: enabling bitrate field in JRiver's DLNA settings under Advanced made the difference. Music plays again :-)

 

However, setting it to Specified output format breaks it again. So DSP with JRiver does not seem possible when streaming to HQPE. Is this a know thing?

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

I never use 169.254.xxx.xxx subnets on Merging components, even if I'm connecting directly from a computer to the component.

[bodiebill]

6 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I never use 169.254.xxx.xxx subnets on Merging components, even if I'm connecting directly from a computer to the component.

 

I just followed Merging's instructions. And it looks like it cured some strange behavior.

 

However, I did notice just now that JRiver suddenly sees HQPE renderer on the other ip address:

 

while before it was

 

Is there a way to influence this?

[Miska]

24 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

However, setting it to Specified output format breaks it again. So DSP with JRiver does not seem possible when streaming to HQPE. Is this a know thing?

 

I think I've heard that JRiver has such limitation. But why do you want to do DSP with JRiver if you use HQPlayer?

 

13 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

However, I did notice just now that JRiver suddenly sees HQPE renderer on the other ip address:

 

while before it was

 

Now it looks more normal...

 

[El Guapo]

21 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

Is there a way to influence this?

169.254.x.x is zeroconf IP address. Generated by device itself. Most likely Ravenna network prefer zeroconf for killing less brain cells.😆

 

If you setup 2 VLANs, you can either configure dual RJ45 NAA as bridge or dual RJ45 HQPe server.

 

If you choose first option, designate one of the RJ45 connects to Ravenna VLAN (remember to edit Ravenna configuration file) and the other RJ45 connects to home network. HQPe connects to home network. HQPe will see the NAA at home network side.

 

If you choose second option, NAA is not needed anymore. Just designate one of the RJ45 of HQPe server to connect to Ravenna VLAN (same, needs to properly conf Ravenna). HQPe's audio will direct output to Hapi. The other RJ45 connects to home network. Other devices will see your HQPe server at home network side.