Confused about Optane NVMe use

[Mike Rubin]

There are lots of references in these forums to NVMe Optane SSD’s for “storage” [sic] of OS files, but I am confused by those references.

 

I have a NUC 10i7 with a NVMe slot that now is populated with a Samsung 970 EVO Pro SSD, which is my boot drive.  Several commenters have said that Optane NVMe sounds better than the Samsung and other standard SSD’s, and that Optane NVMe devices can be used with NUC’s, but I haven’t been able to figure out if one actually can boot from an Optane SSD that is used for “storage” of OS files.  
 

Further, none of these references is to a specific model Optane product (although one mentions 110gb as the storage capacity), so I haven’t been terribly certain what products I should investigate.  Are the 110gb devices the 800P “118gb” model, perhaps?  If it is that model, it now appears to be available only from China, from where counterfeit Intel products have historically been an issue.  

 

Otherwise, Intel seemingly has phased out Optane H10 NVMe SSD’s that are not hybrid SSD and memory devices.  Are the H10’s the kinds of devices used by audiophiles or do the posts refer only to devices that have been discontinued?

 

I appreciate any specific buying advice you can provide.

[StreamFidelity]

3 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

Are the H10’s the kinds of devices used by audiophiles or do the posts refer only to devices that have been discontinued?

 

Very low latencies are achieved with Intel's Optane technology. In my experience, low latencies increase the SQ (sound quality). I use the Solarflare X2522 NIC for Ethernet for the same reason. 

 

Be careful with Hybrid Optane memory! H10 has only a small amount of Optane memory: 32GB. The rest is QLC. Software caching must be set up on these models for both types of memory to work together. The problem does not exist with a pure Optane M10 memory. However, the memory capacities are much lower.

 

Unfortunately, production of the M10 has been discontinued. There is a successor model H20, which has the same problems as H10. 

 

Here are some tests with latencies and read speeds (write speeds are similar in result). It shows that H10 is far behind, while M10 has one of the lowest latencies and highest throughputs. 

 

Source: https://www.anandtech.com/show/14249/the-intel-optane-memory-h10-review-two-ssds-in-one/5

 

Source: https://www.anandtech.com/show/14249/the-intel-optane-memory-h10-review-two-ssds-in-one/8

 

Some dealers have remaining stocks. For the HQPlayer OS, M10 16GB is enough. For Windows 10/11 it must be M10 64GB. 

[Mike Rubin]

3 hours ago, StreamFidelity said:

 

Very low latencies are achieved with Intel's Optane technology. In my experience, low latencies increase the SQ (sound quality). I use the Solarflare X2522 NIC for Ethernet for the same reason. 

 

Be careful with Hybrid Optane memory! H10 has only a small amount of Optane memory: 32GB. The rest is QLC. Software caching must be set up on these models for both types of memory to work together. The problem does not exist with a pure Optane M10 memory. However, the memory capacities are much lower.

 

Unfortunately, production of the M10 has been discontinued. There is a successor model H20, which has the same problems as H10. 

 

Here are some tests with latencies and read speeds (write speeds are similar in result). It shows that H10 is far behind, while M10 has one of the lowest latencies and highest throughputs. 

 

Source: https://www.anandtech.com/show/14249/the-intel-optane-memory-h10-review-two-ssds-in-one/5

 

Source: https://www.anandtech.com/show/14249/the-intel-optane-memory-h10-review-two-ssds-in-one/8

 

Some dealers have remaining stocks. For the HQPlayer OS, M10 16GB is enough. For Windows 10/11 it must be M10 64GB. 

Thanks for this.

 

I am using HQP Embedded OS, which I flash from the image as though it were a USB stick, and external NAS storage, so my boot drive storage needs are very modest. 

 

From your comments and those test results, it looks as though the 800P is the simplest way to go.  As a boot drive, it should be plug and play, with no need to have caching set up or anything else that complicates installation. 

 

It still is not clear to me whether one can boot from Optane that is just a memory stick, not an SSD.  There only is one NVME slot in the NUC and, I thought, using an Optane memory module there means booting off of an SSD or HDD in the SATA slot.  It seems counterintuitive that booting off an a SATA drive, even if relying on Optane as well, would be faster than just using an SSD in the NVMe slot.  If it is, an M10 would seem a viable option, as well, as I have a spare SATA SSD here and nothing in the NUC SATA enclosure. 

 

If I can boot off of an H20, I wouldn't need to use software caching because 32gb is enough storage for HQP Embedded OS, but I guess I would be paying also for QLC memory that I wouldn't be accessing.  

 

All things considered, my preference would be for an 800P. Any idea if I am looking for trouble by buying from China off of ebay? 

  

[StreamFidelity]

I regularly boot from Intel Optane M10. This should also work with the 800P (I have not tried it).

 

It's a question of availability and price. In Germany, M10s are still readily available from retailers. With eBay it is always such a thing. May or may not work. I have had some rejects. 

[Mike Rubin]

30 minutes ago, StreamFidelity said:

I regularly boot from Intel Optane M10. This should also work with the 800P (I have not tried it).

 

It's a question of availability and price. In Germany, M10s are still readily available from retailers. With eBay it is always such a thing. May or may not work. I have had some rejects. 

Thanks again. 

 

When you say that you boot from an M10, does that mean that you use it instead of an SSD for the OS in your computer? Or do you use it in conjunction with an SSD or HDD?  If the former, I had no idea that one can do that!

 

[Mike Rubin]

I can't tell what model this is, but would this work as an Optane SSD even if I can't figure out how or why to access the additional storage?  I just want to flash an Hqplayer Embedded OS image to it. (Maybe this is the H10. I can't tell from the model number.) 

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07RL7TSM1?tag=8870_mob_vother-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1

[seeteeyou]

Intel Optane Memory H10 Platform Compatibility
https://www.anandtech.com/show/14249/the-intel-optane-memory-h10-review-two-ssds-in-one
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-h10-qlc-flash-optane-caching,6094.html

Quote

The dual controller setup on the single M.2 module makes compatibility a bit tricky, though. To use this device, the motherboard has to support bifurcation. That feature allows the PCIe 3.0 x4 device to operate on two separate PCIe 3.0 x2 links.

[davide256]

As far as NUC goes, IME HW options matter in following order

 

1) Apacer server grade RAM

2) Linear power supply

3) SSD

 

The 512GB intel 660P does reasonably well for OS fetch, and is fairly economical at about $50. I don't find it as good as using the Apacer RAM for playlist cache, which is where the NVME Femto drive shined, just has more irritants used as disk cache as vs Apacer RAM buffer only. Also tried using it as local media storage,

NAS remained better.

[Mike Rubin]

2 hours ago, davide256 said:

As far as NUC goes, IME HW options matter in following order

 

1) Apacer server grade RAM

2) Linear power supply

3) SSD

 

The 512GB intel 660P does reasonably well for OS fetch, and is fairly economical at about $50. I don't find it as good as using the Apacer RAM for playlist cache, which is where the NVME Femto drive shined, just has more irritants used as disk cache as vs Apacer RAM buffer only. Also tried using it as local media storage,

NAS remained better.

Thank you. 

 

I just bought 16gb commodity memory two weeks ago as I had no idea that RAM could make a difference in sonics. My bad, but that means that I probably won't prioritize the Apacer RAM. 

 

I also have been led to believe that an LPS won't make a difference in my use case, which is that the NUC only plays over the the network and never over the USB port, so I hadn't thought about upgrading the power supply. 

 

So, upgrading the SSD looked like an easy and relatively inexpensive next step.  The Intel 660p looks like quite a bargain, but I am skeptical that it would be an upgrade over the existing Samsung 970 EVO Pro that I now use. 

 

I think my easiest upgrade path is to keep any eye open for an 800p on the used market or to take a chance on one of the ones available from China on eBay. 

[StreamFidelity]

15 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

When you say that you boot from an M10, does that mean that you use it instead of an SSD for the OS in your computer? Or do you use it in conjunction with an SSD or HDD? 

 

I'm not sure we mean the same thing. SSDs (Solid State Drives) are semiconductor storage devices. HDDs (Hard Disk Drives) store data on large magnetic disks, which in turn are read by a read head. The storage technology is different but the functional purpose of both is non-volatile storage. Therefore, an operating system can be installed on an SSD or HDD.

 

Intel Optane belong to the SSDs and they are available in different form factors. I use M.2 SSDs via PCIe (the bar with the number 1). SATA are slower and have other drawbacks (the bar with the numbers 1 and 2). 

 

Source: https://www.notebooksbilliger.de/pc+hardware/solid+state+drives+ssd+pc+hardware

The picture shows the form factors of SSD in size comparison with a credit card:
2.5 inch, M.2 with SATA interface, M.2 with PCIe interface, mSATA (from left to right).

[Mike Rubin]

15 minutes ago, StreamFidelity said:

 

I'm not sure we mean the same thing. SSDs (Solid State Drives) are semiconductor storage devices. HDDs (Hard Disk Drives) store data on large magnetic disks, which in turn are read by a read head. The storage technology is different but the functional purpose of both is non-volatile storage. Therefore, an operating system can be installed on an SSD or HDD.

 

Intel Optane belong to the SSDs and they are available in different form factors. I use M.2 SSDs via PCIe (the bar with the number 1). SATA are slower and have other drawbacks (the bar with the numbers 1 and 2). 

 

Source: https://www.notebooksbilliger.de/pc+hardware/solid+state+drives+ssd+pc+hardware

The picture shows the form factors of SSD in size comparison with a credit card:
2.5 inch, M.2 with SATA interface, M.2 with PCIe interface, mSATA (from left to right).

Thanks, but I believe that I understand all that.

 

Here is what confused me:  I understand that, with a NUC, (1) I can boot off of an NVMe SSD like my Samsung or the Intel 800p *OR* (2)  I can boot off a SATA SSD or HDD and accelerate it with an Optane memory card like the M10 installed in the NVMe slot.  
 

Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounded to me that you were suggesting that, if I can’t find an 800p SSD, I might find an M10 to use instead of the 800p.  You didn’t mention pairing it with a SATA device, so I asked if you were able to boot off the M10, as though it were an SSD like the 800p.  
 

Looking at the M10, it seems to me that I would have to add a SATA device to use it at all.  If that is the use case, I wonder if I am not better off just keeping my current fast NVMe SSD and not worry about Optane at all.

 

On a related note, I have looked at the H10 series and it requires Windows. I am using HQPlayer Embedded OS, which is a Linux-based OS.  Clearly, I can’t use both the Optane and the NAND portions of those SSD’s under Linux, but I have been unable to ascertain if I can flash the HQPlayer Embedded OS to the Optane part and not even worry whether the NAND is also accessible.  All that I need is the Optane end. 

[StreamFidelity]

58 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

You didn’t mention pairing it with a SATA device, so I asked if you were able to boot off the M10, as though it were an SSD like the 800p.  

 

We still do not understand each other. I will try a short summary: 😉

 

1. you can use M10 for any operating system (Windows, Linux, HQPlayer OS), as long as there is enough space.

 

2. M10 is only available in the M.2 PCIe variant and that's fine. Here are the specifications: 

Form Factor M.2 22 x 80mm

Interface PCIe 3.0 x2, NVMe

 

3. to get the HQPlayer OS on the M10, I use balenaetcher on my MacBook Pro. I have to install the M10 on an M.2 NVME SSD to USB-C adapter for this.

 

4. after flashing install in PC

 

5. change boot order in BIOS and that's it

[Mike Rubin]

5 hours ago, StreamFidelity said:

 

We still do not understand each other. I will try a short summary: 😉

 

1. you can use M10 for any operating system (Windows, Linux, HQPlayer OS), as long as there is enough space.

 

2. M10 is only available in the M.2 PCIe variant and that's fine. Here are the specifications: 

Form Factor M.2 22 x 80mm

Interface PCIe 3.0 x2, NVMe

 

3. to get the HQPlayer OS on the M10, I use balenaetcher on my MacBook Pro. I have to install the M10 on an M.2 NVME SSD to USB-C adapter for this.

 

4. after flashing install in PC

 

5. change boot order in BIOS and that's it

Thanks. I think this helps me understand what you are doing.  This is similar to how I iibstakkHQPe OS in my NUC, except that I do not need to change the boot order because my M2 NMVe device is itself the only bootable device in my NUC. 

 

Just to be clear, though:  in your NUC, do you also have a bootable SATA drive or is the M10 the only one? 

[StreamFidelity]

42 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

in your NUC, do you also have a bootable SATA drive or is the M10 the only one? 

 

Now I understand why you always come up with SATA. 😄

 

No I don't have a NUC, but a passive fis Audio PC with an Intel i9-12900K Core. I have Windows 11 on a second M.2 SSD for comparison purposes. 

[StreamFidelity]

42 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

in your NUC, do you also have a bootable SATA drive or is the M10 the only one? 

 

Now I understand why you always come up with SATA. 😄

 

No I don't have a NUC, but a passive fis Audio PC with an Intel i9-12900K Core. I have Windows 11 on a second M.2 SSD for comparison purposes. 

[seeteeyou]

The key here is using Optane M10 pretty much like a "regular" SSD and let's just forget about anything related to drive cache etc.

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/34613-optane-ssd-as-boot-drive-sq-nirvana/

 

Anything (even AMD CPUs) out there that could boot off PCIe / M.2 will work just fine, and then we'll also forget about SATA drives because of the terrible latency.

 

We're simply taking advantage of the latency of 3D XPoint instead of the same old NAND flash memory.

 

No cache, no acceleration, no SATA, no mSATA, and no NGFF at all.

 

Just plain and simple NVMe via M.2 2280 or PCIe slots, that's it.

[Mike Rubin]

Thank you so much for this clear statement of how to proceed. I can just flash the HQPe OS image to an M10 as I do now to my Samsung SSD and be done with it. Cheap enough experiment! 

[Mike Rubin]

I posted a question about the H10 at Reddit r/intelnuc and got some pretty typical responses from the objectivists:    

 

[seeteeyou]

800P is an Optane-only model for the consumers and therefore it's already discontinued by Intel

 

https://www.pcmag.com/news/intel-discontinues-optane-only-ssds-for-consumers

Quote

• SSDPEK1W120GA
• SSDPEK1W120GAH
• SSDPED1D480GASX
• SSDPEK1W120GAXT

 

Those were the SKUs available back then, the ones coming from China should be OEM products manufactured for HP with the part number 4RV34AA

 

https://h20195.www2.hp.com/v2/default.aspx?oid=23201021

 

Most factories are still located in China (to keep the costs reasonably / unreasonably low thanks to the "magic" of sweatshops) these days, therefore it makes sense that even remaining stocks would come from the same place.

 

---

 

I've gotta agree with those objectivists, in a sense that listening to lossy stuff (e.g. MP3 format etc.) with mediocre systems wouldn't be able to demonstrate any differences between Intel 3D XPoint and NAND flash memory at all.

 

Basically it's quite similar to the concept of “sick populations and sick individuals” by Professor Geoffrey Rose

 

http://www.epi.umn.edu/cvdepi/bio-sketch/rose-geoffrey/

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/when-low-risk-means-high-risk/

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Sick-individuals-and-sick-populations.-Rose/13e75f352d509f7175c92150e27b53a9a71b70f4

 

We're talking about a tiny little niche on this particular site here, while most people in the real world aren't necessarily aware of what we audiophiles are going after

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5466936/

Quote

A 1999 autopsy study of young adults in the US between the ages of 17 and 34 years of who died from accidents, suicides, and homicides confirmed that coronary artery disease (CAD) is ubiquitous in this age group. The disease process at this stage is too early to cause coronary events but heralds their onset in the decades to follow.[1] These data are similar to those reported in an earlier postmortem analysis of US combat casualties during the Korean conflict, which found early CAD in nearly 80% of soldiers at an average age of 20 years.[2]

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6124841/

Quote

Adequate intake of dietary fiber is associated with digestive health and reduced risk for heart disease, stroke, hypertension, certain gastrointestinal disorders, obesity, type 2 diabetes, and certain cancers. According to consumer research, the public is aware of the benefits of fiber and most people believe they consume enough fiber. However, national consumption surveys indicate that only about 5% of the population meets recommendations, and inadequate intakes have been called a public health concern.

 

https://www.fastcompany.com/52717/change-or-die

Quote

Continued Levey: “Even as far back as when I was in medical school” — he enrolled at Harvard in 1955 — “many articles demonstrated that 80% of the health-care budget was consumed by five behavioral issues.” Levey didn’t bother to name them, but you don’t need an MD to guess what he was talking about: too much smoking, drinking, eating, and stress, and not enough exercise.

 

https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=194453

Quote

Do you get a moderate amount of exercise, eat right, keep from piling on fat and avoid smoking? Congratulations, you're among the 2.7 percent of Americans who do so, according to a new study.

Researchers say that, unfortunately, the other 97.3 percent of American adults get a failing grade on healthy lifestyle habits.

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/08/03/487640479/75-percent-of-americans-say-they-eat-healthy-despite-evidence-to-the-contrary

Quote

One question they asked: How healthy would you consider your eating habits to be? About 75 percent of respondents ranked their diets as good, very good or excellent.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/about/costs/index.htm

Quote

 

Moral of the story? IMHO most people might assume that they know what they're doing / what they're talking about while in many cases the exact opposite is true.

[Mike Rubin]

Can't argue with that. 

 

I was aware the 800p was discontinued in Intel distribution when I first posted this, as you can see, above.  The question has become whether I can turn an M10 memory stick into a bootable SSD by flashing HQPe OS to it and plugging it into the NVMe slot in the NUC.  You have suggested, above, that this could work. Now, I am just working my way through the thread you linked just to make sure I am not deluding myself about that.